Talk:Michael McGrath (Irish politician)

Wording on abortion
@Irishpolitical: bringing you here off the back of my last edit summary. I'm more than open to discussing this wording but the status quo version (without the "starkly", which I believe we both disagree on) should stay in the meantime. Neither of the sources mention the "right to life" aspect and the articles linked talk about abortion in the first line before they discuss the "right to life", so I don't see the benefit in adding extra wording, but I'm opening this discussion to hear your points here. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 10:43, 12 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm happy to explain my rationale and don't want an edit war. Yes, we can agree on "starkly" being removed, just as we agreed it wasn't appropriate to include the fact he has 7 children as if it's linked to his views on abortion or somehow bolsters the case that he's "right-wing" (which I also take issue with, but that's another day's work). I believe the current wording is inaccurate and my wording is superior. Article 40.3.3. of the constitution "acknowledge[d] the right to life of the unborn", so that's where I'm getting the wording "which provided an equal right to life to the unborn" - it's directly quoting what was in the former amendment (equal to the mother that is, not a politically charged "equal rights" slogan). He opposed its removal during the referendum campaign. The 2018 referendum replaced article 40.3.3 with "provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancy." This did not legalise abortion per se, but it enabled the Oireachtas to introduce a legal abortion regime if it so desired. The criminalisation of abortion under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act was still the law from May 25 2018 until 31 December 2018, as was the limited abortion provided for under the 2013 Protection of Human Life During Pregnancy Act. To say the 2018 referendum "legalised" abortion is a misnomer; it removed the constitutional "right to life of the unborn" (in equality with the mother) which had prohibited the Oireachtas from enacting an abortion law. An abortion regime subsequently became effective on 1 January 2019, and is regulated by the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018 - which Michael McGrath voted for in autumn/winter 2018. Performing an abortion is still illegal except for what's outlined under the terms of the 2018 Act, so the May 2018 referendum didn't "legalise" abortion. I am therefore arguing the way the article should read is that he opposed the removal of the original article 40.3.3 from the constitution (and explain what this was). Then state that he voted in favour of the 2018 abortion legislation in the aftermath of the referendum. If there's a logical inconsistency here on McGrath's part, that's not relevant to this entry. Irishpolitical (talk) 13:45, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your swift response. Indeed I also agree with removing the 7 children aspect; it belongs in the userbox rather than this paragraph. I see your point on the fact that the referendum itself did not necessarily legalise and rather provided for legislating, and would be fine with including something like this. I don't think we need to overexplain the aspect of the right to life clause within the constitution. I think whatever wording we agree on, it needs to be made clear that he was opposed to abortion during the referendum. Would something along the lines of the following work?
 * McGrath opposed the removal of Article 40.3.3 from the Irish constitution, which prevented the Oireachtas from legislating for abortion, during the 2018 Irish referendum.
 * Ultimately it was a referendum about the legalisation of abortion given the consequences thereafter. On your point about the logical inconsistency between legislating for abortion and voting to let it pass, I believe there's a citation from RTÉ (here) saying that he would respect the voter's decisions in spite of his personal disagreement. Worth adding, possibly? ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 14:02, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes your proposed wording is fine. As for the latter part of your suggestion, about him voting for the legislation and his reasons why, I don't think it's necessary to include it. Or else we'd also include the reasons he opposed the repeal of the original article 40.3.3. in the first place. But that'd be too much explanations, and starts to become unencyclopedic. Irishpolitical (talk) 15:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. I'll implement that wording. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 16:17, 15 October 2023 (UTC)