Talk:Michele Catti

Notability
Does this guy exist? I can't find much that says he does, I'm also not sure about notability.
 * Hello JerrySa1, Michele Catti is considered part of the canonical trio of landscape artists of the Belle Époque hailing from Sicily, together with Antonio Leto and Francesco Lojacono. Unfortunately, not much info exists online in English, which is partly explained by the majority of his works remaining in private collections mainly in Palermo and Sicily (although his works are in various Italian musea) and Sicilian artists in general being slightly more obscure than their northern Italian counterparts, due to the economic conditions following the Risorgimento. Here are some sources (in Italian) confirming his stature. From La Repubblica: source. From Treccani: source. From the Provincial Government of Palermo: source. In my humble opinion, he deserves at the very least a Wikipedia page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BellEpoque (talk • contribs) 10:47, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Ok then. He has the qualifications imo. Jerry (talk) 14:38, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Claims to "nobility"
I have removed the various claims to nobility in this article. Apart from being unencyclopedic clutter, even if they were true, there is no evidence that they are true. It is simply extrapolation from a last name. Noble families dating back to the Middle Ages have multiple highly attenuated distant branches most of which are not actual nobility at all. Having the same last name is no indication whatsoever of being a nobleman (i.e. holding a title) or a direct descendant of nobility. The references given for all these assertions in the article were very vague (possibly intentionally so)—no page numbers, no link to the source online. I tracked them down and none of them validate the claims made:


 * "Contarini", in Nobiliario Di Sicilia, Vol 1 (online version from the central library of the Region of Sicily), makes no mention whatsoever of Anna Contarini, Catti's wife.


 * "Natoli" in Nobiliario Di Sicilia, Vol 2 (online version from the central library of the Region of Sicily), makes no mention whatsoever of any relative of Catti.


 * "Catti" in Dizionario storico-blasonico delle famiglie nobili e notabili italiane, estinte e fiorenti, p. 263 makes no mention whatsoever of a branch in Palermo. There is no evidence whatsoever that Andrea Catti was a "nobleman".

Voceditenore (talk) 08:42, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Dear Voceditenore, Michele Catti was in fact the son of Andrea Catti and grandson of Michele Catti and Concetta Natoli. Concetta Natoli was the daughter of Andrea Natoli and Giacinta Zancla, originally from Patti. Luigi Natoli the writer, was the son of Maria Lamantea and Giuseppe Natoli, younger brother of Concetta Natoli. Andrea Catti (father of the painter) and Luigi Natoli were first cousins. Perhaps because of the age difference with his cousin, Luigi was closer to his second cousin Michele, who was only 2 years older. Treccani and other biographers mention their friendship, although without any reference to their family connection. The Natoli family have a long history in Patti. The Palermo branch descends from the Principe di Sperlinga, Barone di s. Bartolomeo, di Belici, di Capuano, ed Alburchia (P. Gravina , F. Mugnos). Note that the various incarnations of the Kingdom of Sicily, as the Kingdom of Italy later, retained the Frankish succession – inheritance by male primogeniture – instead of all male heirs inheriting title and property (as is the case in France and Germany).
 * Like Giuseppe Natoli, also Michele Catti senior and his son Andrea were part of the Bourbon administration, holding office as court judges. Although I am not sure of their origin in Lendinara, the family Catti in Sicily are considered nobili, or untitled nobles, similar to the landed gentry in the UK; not having inherited any title, but carrying coat of arms and in certain cases feudal rights. In the 19th century there still existed a strong social segregation in Sicily. You can imagine that the position of Michele’s relatives in the Bourbon administration, as well as the marriage of Michele senior, Andrea and their siblings to members of the grand houses of Natoli, Vanni, Caruso, Di Stefano and Pappalardo among others, would have been inconceivable for anyone outside the same social class. Michele Catti himself married Maria Anna Fania Contarini, daughter of Marchese Giuseppe Contarini, Nobile dei Duchi di Castrofilippo (referred to also in the Treccani biography).
 * The communal records, limited to 1820, are only accessible on request, but I have found that there is an American genealogist who has digitalised the communal records of Palermo, but with occasional spelling errors from copying the handwritten records. Here you can find the details of the marriage of Michele Catti and Concetta Natoli, who got married June 10, 1825, the names of their parents, children, siblings etc. Parochial archive records in Sicily date back further, to the 16th century, which is quite unique in Europe, while investiture deeds and chivalry archives date as far back as the times of the Norman Kings. However none of this is digitally available. For detailed family backgrounds, you can consult the Libro d’Oro and more elaborate Sicilian directories, such as Teatro Genologico by Mugnos and La Storia dei Feudi e dei Titoli Nobiliari di Sicilia by De Spucches. Note that the Consultata Araldica was dissolved in 1948 and the inclusion of Sicilian records incomplete, causing some discrepancies in various directories and armorials. I have read one of the biographies of Michele Catti referred to in the article, by M.A. Spadaro, released simultaneously with an exhibition of his works in Palermo at the time, that also devotes a chapter to his family. His background is quite important to understanding his persona and for reflecting on his ambitions to become a landscape painter. I would leave this information in, perhaps more condensed.--Moncado (talk) 00:47, 19 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Moncado,
 * 1. Having relatives who are members of a locally "noble" family in Italy does not make you a "nobleman".
 * 2. These claims to nobility (apart from Contarino, and even hers is tenuous) constitute original research and synthesis—neither of which is allowed on Wikipedia. You need a published reliable source, not Googlie+ or genealogy sites, for every single relative you have mentioned apart from his mother, father, wife, and children who are verified in Treccani.
 * 3. Regardless of the questions of veracity, it is also utterly unencyclopedic to go into that level of family detail. There is no evidence whatsoever that the fact that his grandmother's surname was Natoli had any significant effect on Catti's paintings or his persona. If it did, you should be able to find published verification of that with page numbers and be able to provide the relevant quote from the source here on the talk page. Anything else is pure speculation and doesn't belong in the article.
 * Voceditenore (talk) 07:53, 19 February 2018 (UTC)


 * 1. You are absolutely right. Just stated above what I have read (and heard from relatives who belong to Natoli family)
 * 2. There are published reliable sources. This should not be disqualified and removed, simply because sourcing was not done 100% correctly or because one believes information is tenuous based on a single source; it should be included for editors who have consulted more sources (like the elaborate Italian biographies of Michele Catti that support these claims). I have contacted an art-dealer who has provided me with copies of other biographies of Catti and will try to contribute published verifiable information to this article with sourcing.
 * 3. Michele Catti coming from such background has influenced his career and works. Biographer Spadaro devotes a page to this matter and his family, also biographers Giardina and Accascina refer to it and even Malleo (Galleria Arte Moderna) mentions it in their catalogue. He frequented all the grand salons of Palermo together with his cousin Natoli which initially had a positive effect on his ability to sell his works and acquire commissions. Simultaneously, Catti was in constant conflict with his family and relatives, for his artistic ambitions, not following in the footsteps of his family and regularly relying on support from his father and relatives. This is most accurately described in Spadaro’s bio, who quotes from a good source; Michele Catti’s personal diary in the collection of the Galleria Arte Moderna in Palermo. This information is interesting, if only for the fact that it was rare in Sicily for someone like him, coming from the upperclass, to pursue art. A rarity not limited to Sicily (beyond Toulouse-Lautrec and Tolstoy no other popular artists come to my mind).--Moncado (talk) 23:16, 5 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Moncado, what you have heard from members of the Natoli family is irrelevant. His "cousin Natoli" is presumably the writer Luigi Natoli? Was he Catti's cousin or his uncle (as some sources claim}? You need a published source with a page number to verify either of this assertions. Likewise, issues about his conflict with his family require the exact publication with the exact page numbers to support those assertions. It is simply not good enough to claim that there are sources supporting these assertions without specifying them with precise bibliographic information. Voceditenore (talk) 08:50, 7 March 2018 (UTC)