Talk:Michelle Pfeiffer/Archive 1

NPOV violation
The sentence Since then, Pfeiffer has continued to maintain her status as one of the film world's reigning screen goddesses, despite working much less in recent years. strikes me as an NPOV violation. Leaving aside the inappropriate term "screen goddess", I'm not so sure that she maintained her status during the last decade. I suggest to remove that phrase unless there are some sources backing up the view transported in it.--134.130.4.46 22:17, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Possible copyright violations?
Sections of this article are identical word for word with articles on other websites  which have copyright notices. I am not sure whether the articles on these other websites lifted their content from this article, or vice versa, but it's worth drawing to the attention of Wikipedia admins, so I am doing that here.... HarmonicSphere 5:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Not an admin but I really wish people would look for copyright notices before they scream copyright about mirror sites. The first link contains this notice at the bottom of the article: The content on this page was researched and compiled from many high quality public online sources, including the Wikipedia, which is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License.


 * The second link is illegally copying WP material and redistributing it as their own from what I can tell, they need to release the material under the same license we do. Someone should address this as I have never dealt with such a situation and wouldn't know how to approach it. IvoShandor 05:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Birth
The top of the article says '36, but she's also in the 1957 births category. Which is it? — mæstro t/c, 08:38, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Paper sources such as Oxford Encyclopaedia, refer her as born in 1957, but since she is an actress I suppouse that she can remove years to her age, although she has been 45 years old for at least two consecutive years (2000 and 2001) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.197.38 (talk) 19:29, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Awards & nominations
Does anyone know how to interpret the dates of awards such as Golden Globes and Oscars?

The Oscar ceremony happens the year after release- how should we assign dates to the awards?

The official golden globe site lists The Fabulous Baker Boys as 1990 (presumably year of ceremony), but the official oscar site lists the same film as 1989 (presumably year of release)

thoughts? Japanscot (talk) 06:18, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Image31 33.jpg
The image File:Image31 33.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --04:47, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Filmography
Most of the ones I've seen on Wikipedia list the most recent work first. Which way is it supposed to be? - IstvanWolf 05:45, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Why are you people so adamant that Michelle Pfeiffer not be Jewish? "She's obviously not Jewish." Why because she's pretty? Are you Nazis or something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.87.58.132 (talk) 21:17, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Michelle Pfeiffer and the Hope Diamond
In March of 1995 Michelle Pfeiffer had the rare opportunity to wear the Hope Diamond. It was for a photo shoot held at the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History for Life Magazine. She is one of the few people ever afforded the opportunity to wear the precious stone. In the 336 years of existence in the Western world, few have worn it. They include Louisa Hope, Adele Bichat Hope, the Dutchess of Newcastle, and May Yohe. Only one or two women wore it while it was owned by Harry Winston. Michelle Pfeiffer was the most beautiful, and she topped them all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60Nomad (talk • contribs) 06:17, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Why did my newly added profile photo of Michelle disappear?
This is annoying. I changed Michelle's profile picture. It's a legitimate photo my an individual names Jeremiah Christopher, taken at a movie premiere in Loas Angeles in 2007. It's Attribution Creative Commons- I am ALLOWED to use this photo: Michelle_pfeiffer_2007. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adlek neuy (talk • contribs) 10:51, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Son
Just thought I'd let you know her male child's name is John Kelley, not John Henry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.245.60 (talk) 00:41, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a heads up, since I noticed you changed this information last year and again last month, but Henry is her son's middle name. Note that her daughter is referred to as Claudia Rose rather than Claudia Kelley. Cheers, Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 21:11, 19 October 2011 (UTC).

Pfeiffer's ancestry
Michelle Pfeiffer isn't of Italian-Swiss ancestry. She has never stated that she has Italian ancestry. Her maternal grandfather, Jacob Bernhard Taverna, was of German-Swiss descent. His mother's maiden name was Bernhard, his paternal grandmother's maiden name was Engel, and his paternal grandfather's name was Hans Taverna. Most "Taverna" families in Switzerland descend from a line surnamed "Van Taverna" (this one). They aren't Italian. All Hallow&#39;s Wraith (talk) 04:48, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Engel is also a jewish Surname. I think, she his jewish (and i mean not the Religion!). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.246.212.237 (talk) 00:10, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

POV and non-neutrality in subheadings
The subheadings "Critical acclaim" and "International success" are not neutral.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 04:54, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Short Lead
The lead is too short with respect to the current article size.--Skr15081997 (talk) 10:51, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

In Popular Culture
I noticed that the popular culture section is missing the reference to Pfeiffer made by Eminem in his song "lose yourself." Considering Eminem's fame and the popularity of the song I believe it is worth including in the article. I apologize for the clumsy edit. I am new to this and I am on a mobile device. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.147.40.172 (talk) 06:10, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Pfeiffer - Jewish?
Isin't Pfeiffer a Jewish surname?

I know she's not Jewish but what's the connection?


 * It is often a Jewish name, but Michelle Pfeiffer is pretty clearly not Jewish, unless there's something weird I'm unaware of. She of mixed Dutch, German, Irish, Swedish and Swiss descent (it's in the article too). You know, I guess it's possible she may have a Jewish ancestor somewhere down the line (I.e. maybe from her German heritage?) but by the time it got down to Pfeiffer, she's mostly or almost completely or just completely non-Jewish. Vulturell 06:36, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

its rather common that ethnic dutch, germans and swedes have jewish names, Bergman is a good example. Pfeiffer sounds swiss by the way.


 * On the contrary, it's rather common that Jewish names come from German. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.70.117.103 (talk) 01:21, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Contd. after the answer.

Well, like you say, she's obviously not. It is hard to believe that she is. But, certain names tend to be exclusively Jewish and Pfeiffer seems like one of those names. Also, if it was just a one off thing where the name entered the family line at some point, for it to have endured seems strange as well. Anyhoo, thanks.
 * I'm pretty sure Pfeiffer is a German surname, though I don't doubt it may also be considered a common Jewish one. Michael 04:14, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * My surname is Pfeifer. I am from Germany (catholic).

Ah, here is the answer to your "Pfeiffer" mystery. Michelle's father, Richard Pfeiffer, was born in North Dakota in 1933. His father, William Pfeiffer, was born in Minnesota in 1904. His father, also William Pfeiffer was born in 1863 in Colbe, Satle Province, Saxony, Germany (his wife, American-born, was also of German ancestry). His father, Ernst Pfeiffer, was born in 1831 in Germany. Pfeiffer's paternal grandfather is of full German descent, and at least on his mother's side, the family was Catholic. I'm sure his father's side was too - the Pfeiffers. See this family tree. Pfeiffer's mother's tree - which doesn't get into the whole "Taverna" side though - is linked to on the page. Mad Jack 08:30, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Michael 05:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course she is not Jewish! Mad Jack is right, she is predominantly from German descent. And Pfeiffer is a common German surname and has nothing to do with Jewry. The Name Pfeiffer comes from the medieval musician (piper). There are a couple of version of the name such as Pfeifer or Peiper. 91.12.112.153 11:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Pfeiffer is 100% a jewish Surname! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.160.106.152 (talk) 22:22, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Gold is a Jewish surname; but then Kim in Korean is also gold. So the North Korean Kims (Il Sung, Jong Il and Jong Un) must be Jewish. Methinks not. Pfeiffer is German for Piper. 86.135.49.232 (talk) 03:39, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Pfeiffer is a Jewish Surname, like the Boy from the TV Series "The Wonder Years" Josh Saviano (Paul Pfeiffer). Michelle Pfeiffer has 100% Jewish Blood and not German Blood. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.246.198.105 (talk) 20:36, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

HA! You jerks wish she was Jewish! Oh and basing her name off a TV show, you're an idiot. This gorgeous, beautiful woman is actually Ethnicity: So take that you jerks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.189.5.28 (talk) 03:38, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * 25% German
 * 25% Swiss-German
 * 25% Swedish
 * 25% mix of English, Welsh, French, German, Dutch, and Irish!

Year of divorce?
In the top table, there is

"Peter Horton ​(m. 1981; div. 1988)"

In the text in appropriate section, there is

"Pfeiffer and Horton decided to separate in 1988, and were divorced two years later"

So did the divorce take place in 1988, or 1990? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.176.98.57 (talk) 11:00, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Cliches
Portions of the lead paragraph sounds like a puff piece written by a fan. "Pfieffer has become particularly known for portraying ...strong female characters with intense sex appeal..." and "Pfieffer is widely considered one of the finest actresses of her generation." I am going to take them out and see what happens.AlexanderSoul (talk) 21:20, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

It could probably go even further. The entire lede reads like a resume not an encyclopedic entry.Chimino (talk) 12:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Addrienne Barbeau
Despite only being a voice-over... do you think it'd be fair to list Andrea Barbeau as her succesor as Catwoman, as opposed to Halle Berry?

Images
That's a pretty crappy image of Michelle Pfeiffer! - Ta bu shi da yu


 * But at least there were no copyright problems with Image:Michellepfeiffer.jpg as with the current one. See Salma Hayek, Teri Hatcher, Nicole Kidman, Rosamund Pike, Susan Sarandon, Rachel Weisz etc. etc. (also their talk pages) for details.  11:52, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Another role missed out on
Link


 * Madonna : possessed by `` Evita ''
 * Chicago Sun-Times - Sunday, December 29, 1996
 * Author: ROGER EBERT

LOS ANGELES Madonna, who has always insisted she was the best choice to play Eva Peron, may have been right. It is not only that she holds the screen with charisma and force in the film version of " Evita ," but that she understands from the inside out how Evita invented herself - how she used fashion and stage presence and personal flair to make herself seem bigger than life.

Consider the problem of the president of Argentina. Alan Parker, the director, requested permission to shoot on Eva Peron's famous balcony in the Plaza De Mayo in Buenos Aires. Permission was denied. Every member of the Cabinet was approached. No soap. Finally Madonna went personally to make a call on the president. After their conversation, permission was granted to use the sacred balcony.

"What did you use on him?" I asked her. "Psychic power?"

"I think it was excellent-smelling perfume," she said. "I think at that point I was possessed by her. I went in costume to the meeting, and I think that he picked up on my passion for her, or suddenly saw a different point of view."

It is not too big a stretch to envision the original Evita making a call to the presidential office, also with passion, also with perfume, and getting what she wanted. The other actresses considered for the role (and they are both wonderful: Meryl Streep and Michelle Pfeiffer) would have brought other qualities, but can you imagine either one of them deciding which perfume would best seduce the president?

Evita was the rock star as politician's wife. She adored the movies. She would not have been oblivious to the cult of personality that fed on such personages as Churchill, Hitler or DeGaulle. Born poor and illegitimate, she understood how the movies fed the souls of the disenfranchised with images of power and glamor. She used that knowledge to create herself in the image of a star, and then she found the politician to whom she could attach herself (or was it Evita who swept Juan Peron behind her?).

"Most of her politics were instinctive," Madonna told me. This was the day before the movie's Hollywood press premiere, in early December (the film opens nationally on Wednesday). "Peron was the person who understood the dogma of politics. He was the intellectual of the two, and she had the natural instincts. She was the person that could relate to the people and that's why they worked so good together and that's why they were so great for each other. She totally operated on street smarts and instincts, absolutely."

And so, some would say, has Madonna, who also willed herself to worldwide celebrity, who reinvents her image with each tour and has done it yet again, trading in the strutting sleaze queen for her new incarnation as serious musical star and new mother.

She seemed quieter, more thoughtful, when I talked to her; there was none of the cheerful desire to shock that I remembered from the 1991 Cannes Film Festival, when she paused on the steps of the Palais and threw open her cloak to reveal what appeared to be stainless steel underwear. Remembering her standing there, bathed in floodlights, covered on every TV channel in Europe, cheered by thousands of fans, I asked her what Evita was thinking about as she stood on the Plaza De Mayo balcony. In the movie, it is the moment of her great early triumph, when she realizes she has reached the summit.

"I think that she must have felt incredibly loved," Madonna said. "I think she must have felt a real sense of victory, of accomplishment. When you spend your entire life having people say you'll never amount to anything or you're no good or you don't have what it takes, to finally have achieved what she achieved must have been the ultimate revenge."

And, I continued, what were you thinking when you stood on the red carpet in front of the Palais de Festival in Cannes, and the band was playing and the paparazzi were going crazy - what does that feel like for someone? Is it like Evita 's feelings?

"It's a rush, that's for sure," she said. "Especially the first time it happens. It's incredibly overwhelming; it's confusing. And you do feel an enormous sense of love. Yeah."

I think a rock star was a good choice for this role, because you know what it feels like to be the spotlight of this kind of mob adoration, I said. Mainstream actresses work mostly just in front of a camera, and never have that experience.

"Well, she definitely fed off the energy of the people, and she whipped them up into frenzy, that's for sure," Madonna replied. "And she gave them what they wanted. They wanted her to dress up; they wanted her to come out with the fantastic hats and the beautiful jewels and the incredible hairdo. They wanted someone to look up to, especially because she came from poverty. She was from the working class, and they could say to themselves, well, look, she did it, and if she did it, I can do it."

"You mean, your everyday Joe on the street?"

Let's put it this way, most of us never put ourselves on a path to get ourselves in front of 10,000 screaming people. Some of us do. You have to be able to imagine yourself in that position.

"I can assure you I never imagined myself in front of 10,000 people. Since I was a child (I cannot lie) I've always enjoyed having an audience - but 10,000 people is something you cannot imagine. It evolves into that. I can honestly say I never expected what's happened to me, and I could never have expected, like, performing, for instance, in a soccer stadium in front of 120,000 people."

After I said it, I realized 10,000 was a pretty conservative number. When she arrived in Argentina to play Eva Peron, however, Madonna was not welcomed like Evita 's second coming. There were demonstrations, there was rude graffiti on the road from the airport, and she was greeted with protests, headlines, resentment, even hatred.

People wanted Madonna to. ..

". . . get out! I think they were angry that, you know, that we were coming in and making a movie about their heroine when they hadn't done it themselves. I think that kind of ticked them off. And then there were the people who thought she was a saint. They thought only Mother Teresa could portray her in a movie. Then there were

other people who thought she was a sinner, and they didn't want a tribute being made to her. So it got very confusing.

"If you go out into the provinces, they still have her picture on their walls. She had a profound effect on these people. I can't explain it. Plus, she died so young, and she's been kept alive in that sort of myth-making machine."

The protests helped to firm the government's opposition to allowing Madonna to film (or even stand) on Evita 's balcony. But then the president came around.

"I think up until that point, all he had to go on was hearsay," she said. "The stage version of the musical portrays a very one-dimensional version of her. It doesn't show her in a very humane way; it doesn't show any vulnerability, it doesn't explain her past. Alan Parker had the chance to do that in a movie, and I explained that to the president. I also think that once he heard the music, he was very moved by it. I played him a lot of the stuff that we had already recorded, and I think that I convinced him that we were going to treat her in a respectful manner in the film."

The music was already recorded, because, of course, there was no way to record live soundtracks in scenes on location with thousands of extras and marching troops and roaring engines and cheering throngs. In a film with almost no spoken dialogue - it's sung all the way through, like an opera - the music had to be perfect. The director couldn't march his thousands of extras back and forth for days while the actors worked on a note. So the score was recorded in England, and then in Argent ina the actors had to match every nuance of it.

"What we had to do was a very long process," Madonna said. "First, we had to rehearse the scenes with all the actors right in a room and get the physicality of everything and the right sort of emotional intensity. Then we went into the recording studio and did the same thing. Then we got separated into different isolation booths and we could see each other through the Plexiglas and we were still acting the scenes out. It was very bizarre.

"Then there were a lot of scenes that we weren't sure about, so we had options. We would have subtler takes on things and more dynamic takes on things, so that when we were filming we would have choices. The last third of the movie, which is certainly the most emotional portion of the movie, for the most part we did live because there's no way we could have matched everything. You can't cry on cue. I was very happy that we got to do those scenes live. That was the best."

In most movies, I said, everything depends on the star, the subject of the shot. But here you had a lot of shots where everything depended upon these enormous military-style logistics with the extras and the troops and all the spotlights, and when they got everything going, then you had to hit your mark, bang!, and if you didn't do it then they had to do it all over again. That must have been difficult.

"It was. On the other hand, it was a lot like when you're on tour and you're doing a full-scale show that involves an incredible amount of lights and choreography and musicians and you have to hit marks then, too. It's kind of similar."

In the days leading up to the premiere, Madonna was also playing the role of new mother. A suite was reserved for her in the Marina Del Rey hotel where her interviews took place, and she slipped upstairs for mothering time on a regular basis. People who had been around her a lot said she seemed calmer, quieter.

"I feel that," she said.

Is that what happens?

"I think it's been a combination. First, making this movie, which was such a challenge and such a learning experience. It was two years of my life, and it was so fulfilling to me as an artist. It gave me the chance to work on every aspect of my life, of myself, as a creative person. Then having a child has also been incredibly fulfilling and centering. Both of those things have changed me."

Did people tell you that it was bad for the trajectory of your stage and recording career to take off two years and work on a film project that wasn't your main job, so to speak?

"Not one person told me I shouldn't do this. Everyone thought it was a great idea."

But it's unconventional to say for two years that you're not going to tour, you're not going to do anything but focus on this movie.

"This is true. But I'm no stranger to unconventional." Caption: Madonna said the two-year film project "gave me the chance to work on every aspect of my life." Madonna, the star of " Evita ," faced controversy in Argentina for taking the part - both from people who honor Eva Peron as heroine and from those who castigate her as a sinner. Antonio Banderas stars with Madonna in `` Evita .''
 * Edition: LATE SPORTS FINAL
 * Section: SHOWCASE
 * Page: 1
 * Index Terms: MOVIES ; PROFILES
 * Dateline: LOS ANGELES
 * Record Number: CHI1070115
 * Copyright 1996, 1997 Chicago Sun-Times, Inc.

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2021
Change "housewife" to "homemaker". Sina101010 (talk) 06:24, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: no reason given for change Elli (talk &#124; contribs) 07:30, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Grease 2
Michelle Pfeiffer did not star in Grease 2. That was her sister Dedee. 67.6.25.140 (talk) 15:46, 7 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Simply untrue. Rcarter555 (talk) 16:49, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Stating what Pfeiffer is known for in the lede
Several critics and journalists have stated that Michelle Pfeiffer is known for her versatility to the point where it is considered a defining characteristic of her acting career, which has been cited throughout the article with reliable sources. There are several instances on Wikipedia of a performer/actor's trademark being mentioned in the opening sentence of their lead paragraph (Meryl Streep's versatility and accents, Kate Winslet's portrayal of headstrong women in period dramas, Keira Knightley's work in period dramas, but for some reason whenever I mention Pfeiffer's versatility, it is removed by an editor who considers the statement to be "redundant" or some similar reason, which I can not understand the reason for. I have reinstated this statement in the hopes of reaching consensus. Changedforbetter (talk) 19:57, 6 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree that the inclusion of this information in the lead is solidly supported by citations. It is also helpful information to help a reader get a broader understanding on how Pfeiffer's career is discussed and defined by critics. That being said, I could possibly see "versatility" being taken as an overtly positive assessment of her so if this wording still causes issues in the future, an alternative form could focus on her diverse roles as that may be seen as more objective. I am not saying I agree with this, but I wanted to propose a potential compromise if the current wording still causes issues. I do appreciate that you have brought up other actor articles as there does seem to be precedent for this kind of wording. To add to those three, Lady Gaga's image reinventions and musical versatility just mentions in her lead, and it even includes the "versatility" word. Aoba47 (talk) 23:18, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you :) Changedforbetter (talk) 13:49, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Apologies for the ping. I just wanted to invite you to the above discussion since you have made edits regarding this topic. I do not have strong feelings either and I have not read the coverage on Pfeiffer and her career. I did point out above that this kind of language can be found in other articles, and even FAs, but again, I'm neutral on this matter. Would there be room for a compromise and instead using versatility, say something about her work in diverse genres (as that would read more neutrally in my opinion). Again, apologies for the ping and I hope I'm not being a pain. Just trying to faciliate discussion to get this matter resolved. Aoba47 (talk) 20:25, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

It’s all good, thank you actually! And as you had mentioned before, the "versatility” part does sound as an "overtly positive assessment” in the lead, specially given that the other user adds the “great acclaim” she has earned in her career two or three more times in the next few lines. It should be more nuanced; I totally understand the point of mentioning an actor’s trademark, just like I recently did in Anjelica Huston's article, which says she is known for playing eccentric or unusual roles. I think it should go more towards that direction, like that what type of roles or films she has predominantly acted in?

The idea she is acclaimed and well established as an actress is already supported by facts and said attribution given (awards received and being considered a bankable star), it doesn’t really need to be mentioned so explicitly and repeatedly.

This article, at some points, tends to sound quite effusive, with its positively loaded language. That should be avoided.

NiceBC (talk) 22:31, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

That ‘versatility’ information is already included in the lead. She is a “prolific performer” whose career has gone on for over “four decades”. That, there, I feel like it’s enough to support the idea she is done a lot as an actress. NiceBC (talk) 22:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello, thank you for your comments. In regards to your concern that versatility could read as an "overtly positive assessment", I would like to argue that the term "versatility" does not necessarily indicate that an actor or performer is good at what they do, neither do the terms prolific, versatile, and acclaim automatically go hand-in-hand. The term versatile literally means someone who applies whatever skills they have, regardless of quality, to different things or areas of a trade and, as mentioned before, is a term used in several articles of similar caliber. Although I can see how it could skew somewhat complimentary, a prolific performer doesn't necessarily have to be versatile; likewise, a performer can also be acclaimed without being described as versatile, and vise versa. However, I'd like to note that I am not tied to the word versatile; it's just a term I've seen used to describe performers in similar articles to establish an artist's trademark.
 * On that same note, several edits ago when I was re-writing the article's lede, I had in fact neutrally mentioned something along the lines of Pfeiffer is known pursuing eclectic roles in a range of genres (which does not imply whether or not she is actually good at this), but this was also removed from the article by another concerned editor who for some reason felt this was inappropriate. Prior to this, I had even simply mentioned that Pfeiffer is known for her performances in both comedic and dramatic roles, but this was also removed, therefore there appears to be continued discourse surrounding how this speicfic actress should be described in their lede, for some reason or another. Curious to know your thoughts. Changedforbetter (talk) 22:00, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @NiceBC Changedforbetter (talk) 22:01, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Hey! I apologise for taking so long to answer. It’s been a busy week! And I really thank you for 1. opening up the discussion, 2. taking into into account other users’ opinions, and 3. Your overall contributions to the article. I know what it feels to spend a lot of time researching and working on articles you feel passionate about, the least I want to is being a pain in the ass for you or anyone.

I have myself done the mistake before of getting a little imparcial with articles about living people before. It’s normally just words that try to give more “weight” to what we are saying, so I’ve only done relatively small changes in regards to that in this page, which does feel way more complete and improved after all you’ve done in it.

Now that you lay out your point, I can totally see it that way.. But it’s funny; I can also still see the versatile bit being taken as an overly positive assertion. I think it may be open to interpretation, obviously that depending on a bunch of factors we can’t even count from our screens.

To be completely honest with you, I feel like the lead doesn't need anything else to get the idea across, but I’d personally use something in the lines of the sentence you used before:"eclectic roles in a range of genres". It is specific, and as you point out, doesn't specify the quality. NiceBC NiceBC (talk) 06:22, 22 January 2023 (UTC)


 * @NiceBC Hi there, no worries and thank you so much for your detailed, considerate response and feedback :) I appreciate you being so open to discussing a compromise. For the sake of avoiding any overtly positive sentiments that could be caused by the use of the term versatile in the lede, I agree that "eclectic roles in a range of genres" would be more appropriate, and will work on incorporating this into the article. Changedforbetter (talk) 16:08, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! NiceBC (talk)