Talk:Michigan State Spartans/Archive 1

GA nomination
My main fault with the article is that the history of the basketball and hockey seem underveloped. The football is fine, but basketball and football need to be expanded. Hanuab 09:33, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Failed "good article" nomination
This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of May 15, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:


 * 1. Well written?: Pass
 * 2. Factually accurate?: Comment–The second sentence states that there are 22 varsity teams, but at two points later in the article it counts 14 sports for men and 15 for women, that totals 29. What is the actual total?
 * 3. Broad in coverage?: Fail–The article clearly does not cover the breadth of the topic. Only four (football, men's basketball, men's ice hockey, and golf) sports are even named.  What are the other sports and their accomplishments?  This is the reason the article failed GA nomination.
 * 4. Neutral point of view?: Pass
 * 5. Article stability? Pass
 * 6. Images?: Comment–Unsure of use of TJ Duckett picture. Fair use has never been something I know much about.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you for your work so far. — Timpcrk87 03:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Image:Msu-um-2001b.jpg and the "S" logo in the infobox both need fair use rationales on the image pages. Look to other GA/FAs that are similar to this topic for examples. --Nehrams2020 03:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Featured topic deadline
Per the new resolution at Featured topic criteria, the Michigan State University featured topic will be eligible for removal after 1 January 2008 if this article, Michigan State Spartans is not improved to GA or FA level. Thanks.--Pharos 03:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Issues with # of sports
I went through and I think I've correctly done the number of sports. Men: Baseball, basketball, cross country, football, golf, ice hockey, swimming & diving, soccer, tennis, track and field, and wrestling. That totals to 11. Women: Basketball, cross country, field hockey, golf, gymnastics, rowing, soccer, softball, swimming & diving, tennis, track and field, and volleyball. That totals to 12 So there are a total of 23 teams. Going through that, if I added right there are 16 varsity sports, or else 14 if you count cross country and T&F to be the same, and if you count ice hockey and field hockey to be the same.

If anyone things I'm in the wrong, please let me know Robhakari (talk) 22:11, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

GA fail
I see that this article has improved a great deal since its last nomination, but I feel that it is still not good enough. There are some sections that could use expansion, and some more refs should be found.

My main concern with this article is the dead links. As you can see here, there are many dead links in the article. One these are fixed, and the above is addressed, feel free to re-nominate this article. iMat thew   20  08  10:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have addressed the broken links. As for expansion, which sections? Most of the sections have main articles that they branch off into, so being excessively comprehensive is not necessary. Also, where do extra references need to be added? Could you add fact tags to those areas so I know where you want them to be added, because the article already has many, many references. Gary King (talk) 18:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I saw many lines that could use a reference. I am very sorry, but if you feel that it should not be failed, then I'm going to leave this article for another reviewers opinion. I don't have time right now to go through and add the tag every line that needs it, sorry for that. I'll leave it for now, but it needs another user's opinion. iMat  thew   20  08  22:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Two broken or suspect links at any rate. See here. I'll add my full review when I go through it. Peanut4 (talk) 15:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Links are fixed. Gary King (talk) 18:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

GA review

 * History
 * "As an agricultural college, the school's origin mascot was the Aggies." I don't understand this line. Should it be original? Secondly Aggies links to a disambig page and I don't know where it should go.
 * "In 1909 for one season MSU's mascot was a live brown bear." Needs a reference.
 * "As the college grew in size, it looked to join a major collegiate conference. When the University of Chicago eliminated varsity football and withdrew from the Western Conference (now the Big Ten) in 1946, Michigan State president John A. Hannah lobbied hard to take its place. The Big Ten finally admitted M.S.C. in 1949." So does these three sentences.
 * Make sure all scores use endashes, e.g. 17–14. I've tried to catch them all but may have missed some.
 * There's three uses of the verb "to lead" all "led" in the opening section. Can you try change some?
 * Basketball
 * "in 1979 and again in 2000." Do you need to say "and again in"? I'd just put in 1979 and 2000.
 * In fact there's a lot of uses of "led" right through the article by the looks of it. Make sure you mean it, when you say "led", because I expect some aren't quite right. And try come up with over verbs.
 * "On December 13, 2003, Michigan State and Kentucky played at the most-attended basketball game in history, when they held a match in front of 78,130 at Ford Field, a stadium in Detroit." Who's they? Or do you mean "when they played a match ..."
 * "Since 1995, the team has been coached by Tom Izzo," I change the team to Michigan, because you've just mentioned Kentucky before that.
 * "Merchant spent nine years as head coach of Eastern Michigan University's team, where she was the winningest coach in school history." Is winningest really a word? This needs re-wording.
 * Do you have any more information about the woman's basketball team? There isn't much there.
 * American Football
 * "During the 1950s when Detroit was known as the world's leading automobile manufacturer, Michigan State was often referred to as the nation's "football factory." It was then that the Spartans churned out such impressive models as Lynn Chandnois, Dorne Dibble, Don McAulliffe, Tom Yewcic, Sonny Grandelius, Earl Morrall and Dean Look. In 1951, the Spartans finished undefeated and untied to claim a share of the national championship with Tennessee. The following year the team was again unbeaten and untied. They ended the 1952 season with the nation's longest winning streak (24 games) and were named the undisputed national champions by every official poll." This section seems to be a copyvio of the source.
 * "MSU's traditional archrival" I think arch-rival needs a hyphen.
 * Hockey
 * I presume U-M is the University of Michigan? I might be better to spell it out in full.
 * Other sports
 * "MSU has a number of team sports." It might be better to repeat other sports here since you've already mentioned three in separate sections above.
 * I'm not sure what you mean, but the three previously mentioned sports are not mentioned in Other Sports. I think that's best since those three sports are not 'other' since they already have a section dedicated to themselves. Gary King (talk) 19:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * "Other sports at MSU include cross country, golf, gymnastics, and tennis." I'd link these sports at the first mention, not later on.
 * Maybe also break up each sport to have its own paragraph. It's easier for the reader that way.
 * The golf section looks like it needs some references.

Altogether it looks pretty good. I'll put it on hold while the above points are addressed. Peanut4 (talk) 15:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * All done Gary King (talk) 19:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

More comments
 * You've removed the wl to Aggies. But I still don't understand what the mascot refers to. To me a mascot is singular, so I'm thoroughly confused.
 * Is there no more to add to the woman's basketball team? Though I do notice it doesn't have its own separate entry.
 * I've still got concerns that "When Detroit was known as the world's leading automobile manufacturer in the 1950s, Michigan State was referred to as the nation's "football factory". It was during this period that the Spartans had impressive players including Lynn Chandnois, Dorne Dibble, Don McAulliffe, Tom Yewcic, Sonny Grandelius, Earl Morrall, and Dean Look. The Spartans finished the 1951 season undefeated. The following year the team was again unbeaten. The 1952 season ended with the nationa's longest winning streak of 24 games, and the Spartans were named the "undisputed national champions by every official poll"." seems to have been theoretically just copied from the source.
 * "As with other sports, the hockey rivalry between MSU and U-M is a fierce one, though MSU's rivalry against Lake Superior State University has grown in recent years." Both these claims could do with a source. Sorry missed this one earlier.

''**"MSU has a number of team sports." It might be better to repeat other sports here since you've already mentioned three in separate sections above.
 * I'm not sure what you mean, but the three previously mentioned sports are not mentioned in Other Sports. I think that's best since those three sports are not 'other' since they already have a section dedicated to themselves. Gary King (talk) 19:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)''
 * Sorry, I meant it's probably best to say "MSU has a number of other team sports" at this beat rather than just "team sports" to differentiate it from the three above, which are also team sports.
 * The last par is still a mass of info about several sports. I feel it would be better to separate them, unless you can convince me otherwise. Peanut4 (talk) 19:50, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * okay all done. I tried to merge the related sports in Other Sports as much as possible but I guess splitting them up would be more organized. Gary King (talk) 21:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No worries about the last one. I thought merging the other sports was a good one, because they went well together. I just felt the final four didn't really have enough of a link to jump between them seemlessly. Peanut4 (talk) 21:44, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright, sounds good. Anything else? :) Gary King (talk) 21:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

GA Pass

 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

Following a speedy response to the above review, I'm passing it as a GA. It's probably a good basis for pushing this article on further but perhaps could do with beefing up the text and ensuring there is no supposed bias. The article may also be slightly recentist. Just ensure those last two don't become too apparent, and I'm sure with more work, you could work towards FAC. Peanut4 (talk) 21:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)