Talk:Michigan Womyn's Music Festival/Archive 1

May 2005
This article needs work. Perhaps some POV issues as well as curious phrases that do not appear to be in widespead use. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 01:31, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

What "curious phrases"? I'm not saying there aren't any, but I don't see them. On the other hand, I'm pretty much attuned to this sort of language, so it's possible that there are things in there that most people wouldn't understand that I just don't see. Izzycat 14:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

The other one?
The text says "MWMF is one of two festivals with a womyn-born-womyn policy"

Does anyone know what the other one is? Just curious. It would be interesting to see if their policy is still current. - NickGorton 03:01, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

RadLesFest, probably. It would also likely shut down without the policy.

There is also a festival called "Women in the Woods" that has a WBW policy. There are most likely more, but the policy isn't necessarily published.

There's a women's music festival in Australia which also has a WBW policy. There are significantly more than two, but 'two' makes it sound like womyn-born-womyn-only festivals are a dying breed and therefore must be preserved, no matter who is excluded or whatever. Tall Girl 23:16, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

"Womyn"
Please keep the spelling of "women" consistent in the article (excluding references to the name, as it is a proper name). "Womyn" is not a word.
 * When discussing MWMF, "womyn" and "womon" are the preferred spellings for "women" and "woman", respectively. Perhaps adding a section to discuss why those spellings are preferred so that people don't think they are misspellings is in order. -- Tall Girl 20:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * When used in direct quotes the notation sic should be used to keep those who are not English as a primary language speakers from being confused at blatent and shameless misspellings. 172.128.45.15 22:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not a "blatant and shameless" misspelling, which is the point. Since, as the Wikipedia entry for sic points out, [sic] is used to indicate that something is incorrect, misspelled, or to expose the writer to ridicule, using [sic] isn't even appropriate.  What is appropriate is using the words performed by the members of the community being discussed.  There is an excellent discussion of womyn elsewhere on Wikipedia.  I'd suggest a paragraph be added to this article explaning the use of that spelling in this context with a link to that article.  One of the purposes of NPOV is making sure bias is eliminated.  Since the organizers of MWMF themselves use womyn and womon themselves, the reasons for it being used should be presented, and the terms used by MWMF should be used.  As the NPOV articles point out, the reader is then free to judge for themselves the validity, merit, etc. of the term.  Tall Girl 13:00, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I just went ahead and added an explanatory note in the opening paragraph. It's of interest, and plenty of readers wouldn't have a clue why it's spelled like that.

ManicParroT (talk) 03:52, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

F2M
What about woman -> man transsexuals? They had the "Woman-Born-Woman experience."

re: FTM -- Well, actually, it's probably more accurate to say that they're having the "MAN-born-woman" experience, if they consider themselves men, and that's the issue. It's true that they were BORN female, but that's only half the equation. You need to ID as a woman now, AND have been born a female to fit the "woman-born-woman" definition. I hope that helps clarify the issue. :) Hyperjoy7

Layout
At present this article is very top-heavy, with everything above the first subheading comprising the bulk of the article. Unless someone objects strongly, I'm going to come back later and see what I can do to break things down into more sections and improve the flow. -- Tall Girl 20:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Location
This is the festival in Hart, Michigan, right? That is a bit silly to have an encyclopedia intentionally leave out relevant information because out of "courtesy." Not to mention offensive (and sexist) to claim that the consideration is for "safety." Members of a certain sex have known of the location for a long time without forming raiding parties to go looting and pillaging. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.188.152.28 (talk • contribs).
 * Regardless, festival management and the women who are involved with the festival have requested that the whereabouts of the actual festival grounds not be published. Considering it is women who are making this request, dismissing it as "sexist" is misguided. Tall Girl 23:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The Church of Scientology has asked that information about it (including some of their locations) not be published anywhere. It's still on wikipedia because it's publicly available and verifiable information whether the CoS wants it published or not. The same principle stand here.


 * Furthermore, anyone set on harassing the festival is fully capable of exerting the small effort of doing a couple google searches and finding the exact location themselves, excluding the information from wikipedia isn't going to do anything for safety.Neitherday 00:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Woman Born Woman Policy
Just wanted to note that the policy is still in effect. I just looked on the bullentins at the MWMF website. A press release was put out by Lisa Vogel on August 22, 2006 affirming this policy. For this reason, I'm cutting the line that states that the policy was ended in 2006. Dawns53715 03:13, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Neither the article nor the website makes this plain, but I assume this means that men are forbidden to attend, correct? Wachholder 19:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is still a festival for women. The policy is still declared to be in place, but out transwomen are being sold tickets (and that is why Lesbians on Exstacy agreed to play).  I think the article should more closely reflect the reality of the situation. I'm making changes, although I feel a little iffy about my ability to cite. RapunzelSaves (talk) 05:33, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Wristbands
The wristband paragraph was motivated more designed to start a movement than to discuss an existing one. It also made obvious POV statements. I removed it. Neitherday 04:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Adjusted the womyn born womyn section
The critism area had both support and against the policy info, so I broke them up... It reads better ---Womyn2me —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.228.122.18 (talk) 03:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC).

changed community meetings part
Added the word "worker" to the community decision paragraph, other wise it sounds like we have festi-goer community meetings for community decision making.... 159.140.254.10 18:32, 25 July 2007 (UTC)Womyn2me

NPOV template
I notice added a neutrality template to this article without any discussion as to what they see as POV in the article. They have only made 3 edits (including adding the template). Without knowing what problem they have with the article, it is impossible to fix it. I'm removing the template. If anyone can come up with a reason to readd it, go ahead. But if you do readd it, please give a brief explanation here as to the reasoning. Neitherday 22:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Theory Regarding Application of the WBW Policy
I added clean-up and original research tags to the section. The section itself sets forth to advance one person's theory, and as such should be removed per WP:OR. But, before that I'd like to see what others think and if anyone believes that there is something that can be salvaged. Neitherday 18:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

newbie wants to add citations, but not problems
i am new to wiki in general & editing in particular. i'd like to add citations/references to magazine articles that, in my humble opinion, illustrate or further define phrases and concepts in the mich-fest article. at the same time, i don't want to cause more problems or offend 'style', especially if the periodicals i'm thinking of, such as velvet park magazine, will be perceived as inappropriate. all suggestions appreciated. Flatbed flirt (talk) 01:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Somewhat vague
From the article:
 * Many queer women feel safe and "at home" at Michigan, with the result that lesbian-identified women are among the 3,000-10,000 women who attend each year

I should think lesbian-identified women are among the attendees at almost all festivals. If the point here is that there are a notably large number of such, then this needs to be made explicit. 86.149.132.157 (talk) 16:47, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

History
I would like to see more of the history on here. There could be an entire section, for instance, on the performer lineup for each year. We could use the festival program from each year as a reference source. I would love to be able to see the lineup for years I was not able to attend, or for particular things that happened each year. I think this is something that is missing from the festival's own website, so would not be overly duplicative, or something that could just be linked. --Randomthing (talk) 17:25, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

There's a list of past performers, but if a full, year by year list is included it would probably make the article unwieldly. Maybe as a separate article with a link?

ManicParroT (talk) 03:56, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

removed weird leatherwars thing
after confering with a couple of other other of those referenced 'leather women' I removed what I considered inflamatory opinions regarding the 80s and 90s BDSM tensions... since not a one of us ever refers to that time as 'the leather wars' and we think that comes from one of the more current age trans inclusion activists, I took that out on purpose... it was tense, it was interesting times, it was also my personal experience, so I get to help recall it for history, or at least wikipedia 67.170.0.249 (talk) Mistress Incognito  —Preceding undated comment added 01:00, 24 April 2009 (UTC).

Doesn't writing from one's personal experience violate the "Wikipedia articles must not contain original research." rule? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.68.156 (talk) 07:51, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Cleanup long overdue
"Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (March 2008)" More than 3 years have gone by and it is all still unsourced, biased and poorly written. Maybe the entire thing needs to go. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.68.156 (talk) 07:53, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Unexplained names
Many may know who Lisa Vogel and Barbara Price are, but their names are introduced without explanation in the History subsection of the WBW section. The name "Burkholder" is also used in the Criticism subsection of the WBW section. No explanation of the person or the "incident" is given. Looks like a copy-paste job or sloppy editing. I'm planning to try to fix this at some point, but feel free to jump in here… — SamHathaway (talk) 19:48, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

The womyn-born-womyn intention
Hey SugaredPeas!! I was the original writer of much of the section on Michfest's WBW intention. I really appreciate your recent contributions to this section! It was particularly useful how you added Lisa Vogel's recent commentary explaining the intention and the reasoning behind it. I am planning to make some edits to what you wrote, however. I don't want to make any off-base assumptions. . .but my hunch is that you are personally a supporter of the WBW intention, and I think that unfortunately comes across in your rewrite. It's important, however, that we write all Wikipedia articles using NPOV. It's great to neutrally summarize Lisa Vogel's point of view, just as it's great to neutrally summarize Julia Serano's point of view. . .but it's important that all material that is not a direct quotation IS written as neutrally as possible and avoids contestable language as much as it can. I admit that I personally oppose the WBW intention, and therefore am far from an unbiased observer on this topic. But I hope that working together, we can check each other's potential biases and create an article that is worded as neutrally as possible and therefore is of the most value to readers of this encyclopedia. Again, thanks for your contributions. Rebecca (talk) 00:12, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I think I was being neutral which is clear by the fact that you aren't sure where I stand on the intention. I think in this conversation saying that someone is "clocked" as trans is "cissexist" so I think stating facts in this context is considered not neutral, while some might say it is just ignoring facts. Regardless, I am just dedicated to adding cites and quotes so that information that is original source is shared. (sugaredpeas (talk) 15:56, 28 June 2014 (UTC))

Tracy Chapman
My recollection is that Tracy Chapman attended the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival shortly before she broke into the mainstream; that should certainly be added to this article. She is the most high-profile musician that I know of who has been to a women's music gathering. Shocking Blue (talk) 08:19, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Here is a reference that mentions Chapman:


 * - gobonobo  + c 08:19, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
 * - gobonobo  + c 08:19, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

"Lesbian" usage and relevence
I believe that the use of the word Lesbian in reference to the photographer as a defining adjective is proper, but only if the photographer herself openly has stated her sexual orientation. Additionally, since what seems like a good amount of the page is devoted to the issue of transphobia in one context or another, sexuality and sexual orientation should also have a place at the table here, not just genitalia. One the other hand, I must admit this: if the photographer had not been lesbian, would her years of work there been such a suitable topic for inclusion at all? I went to the photogs website. Angela Jimenez She makes no mention of it in her bio, so the assumption is that she has come out about this somewhere for it to be included at all. My suggestion: ask her how she wishes to be defined, instead of someone else doing it for her. I am somewhat unclear about Wikipedia's policy on this. Thank you one and all. Aceofspadespdx (talk) 07:25, 13 June 2014 (UTC) Ben Brown Jr. 12 June 2014

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