Talk:Michiru Yamane

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Worklist
I disagree with the recent worklist changes. One, if it can be cited, then it should stay in the article, regardless of how niche the game is. And two, removing co-composers can mislead people to think she solely composed all of the games listed. If we don't list the exact names of the co-composers, then the games she didn't fully compose should at least be marked as such, maybe with a note. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 03:52, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Further games can be added from her official site, but I figured since these were not ever brought up across several interviews, they aren't important enough to mention here. Since most of her works were collaborations, I thought about adding a dagger or something to ones where she was the main composer, but didn't bother doing it for now. TarkusAB talk 04:02, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I'll get around to it later, and add any missing games that have third party sources. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 06:26, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

The only rules that would pre-clude a full worklist would be WP:TRIVIA, WP:GAMEGUIDE, orWP:FANCRUFT. I do not believe such a list would violate any of those rules. However, I can undertand the concern over contributions vs. full scores. Many scores she contributed only some songs, and such a list could give the impression she did all of them. However, I'm certain there's some formatting guidelines for musicians and composers for these sorts of issues right? All we need to make sure is to make it clear which games she fully scored, and which games she contributed music to.

One thing to note about Elder Gate is that it re-united much of the Symphony of the Night devs. Igarashi was the director (and to date is the only game he directed), she did the music, and it was produced by Toru Hagihara (Sotn director). The game was JP only, and supposedly a failure, so Iga never talks about it and almost no one knows about it. Indeed, I can find next to no sources at all about the game. The only source mentioning Iga directingn it is the list of credits. It's typically missing from the narrative about Iga and Yamane's life as it's the first game since Symphony where they re-united. Harizotoh9 (talk) 23:41, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * There is no standardized policy for handling a (video game) composer's worklist AFAIK. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 04:37, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
 * That is interesting about Elder Gate. TarkusAB talk 05:19, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

The typical narrative is that Yamane re-united with Iga for Lament of Innosence, but in actuality it was Elder Gate. The game's credits are in English, so I think it should be fine to just cite the credits and add it to the body of the text.

For worklist, other pages for devs have full worklists, like Keiji Inafune, or Takashi Tezuka. For composers, Kinuyo Yamashita has one too. I don't see any problem with listing all the games, but it should be made clear which games she contributed to, and which ones she fully scored herself. Harizotoh9 (talk) 23:24, 15 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I do see a problem with listing all the games. My concern is that most readers will only want to know her significant contributions, and listing every single game will overwhelm the reader and make it more difficult to understand which are key. Even if we mark which were contributions and which she was the main composer, it does not help distinguish her contributions to Suikoden from say Rumble Roses, for example. She contributed many tracks to the Suikoden games and is remembered for those tracks, but only contributed one or two tracks to Rumble Roses and they are never discussed by sources. Sites like VGMDB and Moby Games are better for maintaining a master contributions list. TarkusAB talk 23:46, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

You'd have to argue that it'd be trivia for gamecruft, and I don't think that's the case. I don't think it's excessive detail to list her works. Interestingly, on her own site, she lists several games in her worklist that aren't included in the list in this article. This list doesn't list everything she contributed to, and seems to be the ones she thinks is most significant.

Also, the sub-heading is "Castlevania", which gives the impression she only worked on Catlevania games during this time period. I am not sure what to call that section. Maybe "Later Konami works". Harizotoh9 (talk) 01:59, 16 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm not arguing that it's gamecruft, I'm arguing that it's detrimental to the reader's comprehension of her contributions. I don't think there's a policy on that. If you and Dissident want the full list back, OK, but I'll probably request more opinions from WT:VG just to be comfortable with a larger consensus. You can do the same if you'd like. (for reference, this rev lists all the contributors, and this rev has all the sources) TarkusAB talk 10:59, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The only real issue is having sourced. We usually include all the works of other (non-gaming) musicians, so it should not be considered gamecruft here due to that. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 17:48, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

I've formatted this as a proper chart, like other pages. I will expand this to include all her games that I can find. Also, sourcing the credits or manual of the games themselves can work if we can't find third party citations. A third column for "notes" should be added, saying if there were other composers on the game. Harizotoh9 (talk) 05:53, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * No, the issue is having them be cited by third party sources, not verifying they exist in the first place. (WP:N vs WP:V) ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 07:40, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * There's nothing in WP:N or WP:V that forbids primary sourcing. Credits and game manuals can be verified so there's no violation. Tons of GA or FA articles use game manuals. It only says that articles that overly rely too much on primary sourcing are bad. WP:PRIMARY says that primary sources "may be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." Now all we're talking about is a simple addition to a chart, so that's about as straight forward a factual statement as we can get. Harizotoh9 (talk) 01:10, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Expanding on before: the policy that guides this is WP:Weight. Primary sources are fine, but if all you have is a primary source, then that means that the weight that should be given to it is very small. So an entry in the worklist is fine.

Using the worklist on her site and comparing it to the one here, there are still several games missing, mostly from her early career at Konami:

Harizotoh9 (talk) 18:34, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Space Manbow
 * SD Snatcher
 * "Motocross Maniacs" (1990)
 * Lethal Enforcers
 * Cowboys of Moo Mesa
 * Several Beatmania games

China:
Her and Iga have made several appearances in China, and she's done a performance or two as well I believe. This is covered by the Chinese gaming media. Game Sound Maniac was a performance, and China Joy 2015, and IndiePlay 2015 are the two appearances. There's at least one Chinese language interview which might have useful info. Harizotoh9 (talk) 19:21, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Interview
 * Article
 * Game Sound Maniax (JP article)


 * Neat, thank you! TarkusAB talk 19:57, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

1UP interview
This interview from 1Up.com is split across two pages. For some reason, only the first page is accessible. I cannot reach the second page, even through archive websites. If anyone is able to access, please ping me. TarkusAB talk 20:01, 16 December 2018 (UTC) I figured it was archived, but just on a different url. So I searched for the article name, and found someone linking to it with a different url. These pages are typically archived, but with slightly different urls making navigating the site a bit difficult. Harizotoh9 (talk) 20:27, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Archive.org link
 * Thank you so much...I'll need to go through this and the other sources soon. TarkusAB talk 20:46, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure 100% of 1up is archived, but it is not always easy to navigate, and archive might have one specific url saved but not another. Harizotoh9 (talk) 05:50, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Source diversification:
The article leans a bit too heavily on a few interviews. More sources should be used to reduce this reliance. Harizotoh9 (talk) 22:21, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Interviews:
She's given a lot of interviews. Some of them are in obscure publications. I'm gonna post some that I've come across so far that aren't used as referneces in this article:


 * Babysoftmurderhands
 * Beep! magazine 1994, (Japanese Bloodlines interview)
 * Play staff (Jan 2006). "Castlevania Release Day Event". Play (US). Vol. 5 no. 1. Fusion Publishing. p. 61.

Harizotoh9 (talk) 04:53, 20 December 2018 (UTC)


 * If the Beep interview is the same one translated at Shmuplations, I already scanned through and didn't find anything of value. I'm finding that a lot of the information in these interviews would be better for the respective game articles. TarkusAB talk 05:08, 20 December 2018 (UTC)