Talk:Micro-SIM

Speedy deletion nomination of Micro-SIM
It's a developing topic, give it a day or so for people to investigate and add more content. Also, at least one reference has been added. Justin Ormont (talk) 20:11, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Merge into Subscriber Identity Module?
The Subscriber Identity Module article already covers the regular SIM and mini-SIM form factors. There doesn't seem to be enough different here to support a separate article. Lyrrad0 (talk) 20:13, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Wait: Lets wait and see what develops first. There may be new information soon.  Based on Apple's comments, it seems like more devices could be using this technology and a separate article may help in identifying products using this technology.  Justin Ormont (talk) 20:24, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I wrote in the comments to diff 340634118 "Perhaps the Use in products can go away. The only reason for its existence is to mention a certain Apple product. A general reference to GPS and mobile telephony should suffice."
 * Either merge this into the existing article Subscriber Identity Module (since this article is but a special case of SIM) or "cut the c**p" (that is, write an article without mentioning Apple). I suspect that if it were not for Apple this topic would be covered by a paragraph in the existing SIM article. In any case, this is a classic case of systemic bias, and maybe redirection/deletion is in order... 118.90.64.3 (talk) 01:18, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * As I included in the talk page of SIM article a link to the source, this should really be merged and redirected in the above article. It has the same argument as separating Micro USB from Universal Serial Bus. --Slxception (talk) 05:23, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Note: Article has been expanded greatly and revised since this section concluded. Justin Ormont (talk) 20:40, 31 January 2010 (UTC)


 * In my opinion, this merge is the right thing to do : micro-sim is just a new name for SIM card in 3FF format. this size of chip card has already been used in several products, as SAM (cryptographic application), SIM (embedded modems), ... The so-called new features are pure marketing : some uSIM can connect with several communication channels, phonebook storage can be ugraded up to thousands of contacts, tower authentification can already be made with uSIM toolkit, and so on... Zeugma fr (talk) 12:33, 4 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Just because a few people have laboured significantly on this article, on a topic which interests them it does not excuse them avoiding discussing why deletion shouldn't occur. The comments from the people who have bothered to talk are mostly in favour of getting rid of this article, which (I repeat that) I agree with. 118.90.84.59 (talk) 22:56, 6 February 2010 (UTC)


 * More discussion on merging at Talk:Subscriber_Identity_Module

This article is a mess
I'm not a Wikipedia person and don't really know how to use your system, but this article needs serious help. First of all, both GSMA and Gemalto told me it's called a 3FF SIM; "Micro SIM" comes from Steve Jobs, who is a fine enough fellow but doesn't make SIM cards or set SIM card standards. Also, an embedded SIM is different from the removable 3FF SIM in the iPad - see my article at http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2358489,00.asp - that's what the VP from Gemalto told me. Get your information from Gemalto, the ETSI and the GSMA. Finally, this should almost certainly be a section in the main SIM card article rather than an article all on its own. I know you're not supposed to add your own material to Wikipedia and I'm probably doing this wrong, so I'll just keep my comments here on the talk page. Sorry to butt in. - Sascha Segan, PCMag —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.167.10.254 (talk) 15:03, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with the user. Micro SIM is a Steve Jobs name AND there are no significant diferences to justify a new article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Humpback (talk • contribs) 11:31, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * So, given this Talk thread and the one immediately preceeding, should there be a formal deletion request? 118.90.84.59 (talk) 08:40, 30 January 2010 (UTC)


 * See new additions & rewrites. The new 3FF format is not just a smaller version of the SIM card, there are underlying differences, which should be expanded further in this article. Justin Ormont (talk) 21:23, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Card Trimming
Note: this section was originally part of :


 * There is potentially developing evidence that the differences may not be significant, at least from an electrical standpoint. Developing story at Engadget points to this by referencing this article from CNET UK which cites that the ETSI has indicated that a "micro SIM" is similar to a "mini SIM" except for the size of the plastic around the chip. --Mouserider (talk) 17:21, 2 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, saw that. It's true that the electrical contacts are the same and the actual chip lies below the electrical contacts (in all cases that I know of), so yes, in general you can trim excess plastic off of a mini-SIM.  But still that doesn't make it micro-SIM (3FF).  The actual chip is backwards compatible and will work with older devices, but the converse isn't necessarily true.  A newer device can require a micro-SIM (3FF).  The actual chip in the 3FF has differences, some of which are listed in the article. One case where trimming should work is if the SIM reader is an older generation in a newer device. In short, trimming a mini-SIM may or may not work. -Justin Ormont (talk) 19:37, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Peek (mobile email device)
Does anyone know if the Peek (mobile email device) uses a Micro-SIM? I know it doesn't use a Mini-SIM in order to prevent people from switching out to different providers than TMobile. Thanks 195.229.235.36 (talk) 06:38, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

What would go in the main article
From the existing page, the following are the essential data that should be moved:


 * 1) A third [card] size of 12mm x 15mm exists with identical contact area, called Mini-UICC in ISO 7816.
 * 2) Mentioned in the Dec 1998 3GPP SMG9 UMTS Working Party (the standards setting body for GSM SIM cards).

1. probably belongs where the other two sizes (full size and mini SIM) are mentioned, currently the intro. Actually only the fact that a 12mm x 15mm size exists needs to be mentioned. (Read the intro, and section "Smart card technology".) 2. can probably be skipped harmlessly.

I.e. the only notable thing here is that it's a small ICC.

The rest is commercial fluff. 118.90.84.59 (talk) 08:58, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Note: Article has been expanded greatly and revised since this section concluded. Justin Ormont (talk) 20:40, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Propose: Rename to 3FF SIM Card
The differences between the 3FF (micro-SIM) and the previous SIM, the Mini-SIM, are much more than just making the physically card smaller. I could do that with a pair scissors. One of the main additions is the ability to authenticate the cellular towers that it's connecting to where as previously only the tower authenticated the SIM card; beyond that, there are many other underlying changes to the chip, which should go into this article.

But to my point, "Micro SIM" is Steve Jobs' name for the form factor of this SIM card, and the more official trade name is "3FF SIM". With respect to the wonderful Steve Jobs, the name 3FF (3rd Form Factor) was chosen by the organizations creating the device and those trade organizations should have naming rights over the device. Unless other companies begin to use the "Micro SIM" title, I believe this should be referred to on Wikipedia as "3FF SIM" and therefore the article be renamed to "3FF SIM Card". Justin Ormont (talk) 21:34, 30 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Please note that the point that "Micro SIM" is a name coined by Steve Jobs is not totally accurate.


 * If you look at the press release that I had included early in the development of the entry, Lok8u and T-Mobile First to Bring Micro 3FF SIM Cards to U.S. M2M Market, you will notice that the author of that press release refers to the SIM, in the first paragraph, as a "micro subscriber identity module (SIM)," thus micro SIM.


 * As this press release was dated 6 January, 2010, there is certainly precedence for the use of the term micro-SIM before it is again used by Jobs during the iPad launch. --Mouserider (talk) 07:29, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Technical note aside : identifying the tower WAS ALREADY a function available in Mobile Equipment... 3FF format does not bring anything new to the world of SIM, uSIM or smartcards... Zeugma fr (talk) 20:13, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Is there an ISO/IEC (or other) standard from the size?
Is there an ISO/IEC or other standard to define the size of the micro-SIM? ISO/IEC 7810:2003 doesn't include it. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:09, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * ETSI TS 102 221, from http://etsi.org/. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:53, 8 April 2010 (UTC)