Talk:Micro combined heat and power

Market status
hi, on the market status: I'm not so sure about it, but I think theres a lot bigger market for CHP existing in germany. Regards, daniel. i added the DE link. Mion 21:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Removed paragraph
I removed this paragraph:

Additionally, in the U.S., federal and now many state regulations require utility operators to compensate anyone adding power to the grid. From the standpoint of grid operator, these points present operational and technical as well as administrative burdens. As a consequence, most grid operators compensate non-utility power-contributors at less-than or equal-to the rate they charge their customers. While this compensation scheme may seem almost fair at first glance, it only represents the consumer’s cost-savings of not purchasing utility power versus the true cost of generation and operation to the micro-CHP operator. Thus from the standpoint of micro-CHP operators, net-metering is not ideal.

It's hard to follow. The fact that an operator would pay its suppliers less than it charges its customers seems self evident. I can't follow the next sentence at all. I think it means that the rate paid is only that paid to existing generators, which doesn't cover the costs of CHP. Is that right? And if so, doesn't seem that reasonable? - Crosbiesmith 21:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The fact that it is evident is no reason to delete the part, it is only showing that operators will charge costs, a normal thing but it sheds some light how the price is build up.Mion 16:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I take your point about the first part. Regarding the second part, the statement, "this compensation scheme may seem almost fair at first glance" seems to imply the compensation scheme is not fair, which doesn't seem a neutral point of view.  Perhaps that could be omitted, or re-worded?  - Crosbiesmith 17:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, i agree on your point, now i can rewrite it, but i guess that the one having a problem with it, (which i support its not NPOV), so please make it a neutral statement. (more because i am not native english) reg . Mion 17:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

"While this compensation scheme may seem almost fair at first glance, it only represents the consumer’s cost-savings of not purchasing utility power versus the true cost of generation and operation to the micro-CHP operator. Thus from the standpoint of micro-CHP operators, net-metering is not ideal." I think this statement should not be there. It is an opinion that has nothing to do with the subject, and makes the paragraph read like an argument, written in very casual language. It is a complaint about the current state of affairs and economic reality. (124.170.6.214 (talk) 12:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC))

Technologies
I removed the reciprocating engine, as a stirling and a steam motor use pistons, too. So, the expression internal combustion engine, burning heating oil (diesel) or natural gas (otto) is more appropriate. I erased the "rankine cycle" too, as the only rankine cycle engine in microCHP is the steam engine (see which is already mentioned. ORC-cycles  are usually to big for the label microCHP. --Gunnar.Kaestle 09:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

How to remove from a category? 86 "Hydrogen technologies"
This page, according to the information in the article, has nothing at all to do with hydrogen technologies. So would someone remove it from that category? Thanks Beanluc 19:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

biased article?
This overview seems very biased towards natural gas mCHP not to mention speculative.

The future of combined heat and power, particularly for homes and small businesses, will be greatly affected if natural gas prices continue to climb. While the waste heat from biomass, solar thermal, coal, diesel, heavy fuel oil and nuclear power plants can be used for CHP, such energy sources are far less convenient, more difficult to transport and more expensive for home use. Nuclear power, in particular, is impractical at small scales. Except for nuclear and solar power, these other energy sources also burn significantly less cleanly than natural gas, except where expensive pollution controls are used. Finally, of all of them, only diesel can be used in gas turbines or reciprocating engines, which are cheap, small and efficient, making them the choice for most small CHP installations.

Biomass can be very clean, and if you consider CO2 as "dirty" biomass is much cleaner than natural gas. Depending on where you live, it is very easy to get a load of wood pellets delivered to your door directly into your storage bin, the experience being not any different than ordering up fuel oil. "Far less convenient" is subjective.

I'm no expert, but if an expert would include some actual market data it would be useful towards its. Specifically a breakdown of existing mCHP systems being sold by type/percentage/geography (US and Europe are very apart on alternative energy technology, with places like Germany and Sweden having such deep penetration that it is mainstream). Ultimately it would be useful to see a breakdown of mCHP installations in addition to "what is on offer." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mieslep (talk • contribs) 09:52, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Market status and government policy section seems to have unencyclopedic content which may or may not be biased towards Honda MHCP203.97.98.36 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:52, 12 April 2009 (UTC).

Efficiency
CHP is alway compared with P (power only) on efficiency how does it compare with H heat only. If heat is all I need and also want maximum energy conversion do I need CHP


 * Check the exergetic efficiency. A power conversion from a fuel only to low temperature heat by just a boiler is not recommended. Use a gas fired heat pump instead if you don't need electric power. The Japanese manufacture those in series since the early 1980s as a result of the oil price shocks. --Gunnar (talk) 21:28, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Old dates referenced
I've tagged this article for an update, as there are many references in future tense to dates that have occurred years ago, and I do not have the background to update accurately. 63.239.65.11 (talk) 14:01, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * updated. Mion (talk) 08:51, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Nirvana Thermo Acoustic Power Stick
Recently announced, something to keep an eye on

Nirvana Thermo Acoustic Power Stick™ (TAPS™) produces between 1-4 KW of electrical power, and 15 KW of thermal power, with system efficiency over 90% 32" in length, and 8-10" in diameter unit weighs less than 60 pounds reliable, with a lifetime of over 15 years .... nirvana-es dot com

New ideas that may change requirements for CHP
The use of LED lighting and lower energy requirements of appliances should make smaller units capable of producing enough energy for small residential units. Using excess heat could be used to heat a greenhouse. Is it possible that by using methane, generated by anaerobic digestion of organic waste, produced by a household of 4 including weeds, grass clippings leaves, peelings garbage supply enough to run the small unit required. Fertilizer produced would also feed the plants grown in the greenhouse. It sounds like a big order, possibly to expensive. It's something I have been thinking about for several years. I know about construction of buildings, but little about the amount of methane produced by such a small amount of organic matter. Hope someone will be curious enough to give their thoughts on the matter.

74.98.240.186 05:46, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Microbial fuel cells maybe ? Mion (talk) 14:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

CHP with solar?
Combined heat and power solar - isn't that putting a PV panel and a solarthermal panel together? Cogeneration as I know it is a thermodynamic process where the waste heat is used for heating purposes (or process heat in industrial applications beyond mCHP). --Gunnar (talk) 22:19, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

What is Micro?
At least in Germany, there are different size denominations in use:
 * 1) nano CHP is for detached houses or semi detached houses. Power production is for one or maybe two households in the range of 1-2 kW.
 * 2) micro CHP is in the range of 15-20 kW for small multifamily homes and small commercial buildings such as small hotels.
 * 3) mini CHP is up to 50 kW and may serve also small district heating grids, such as a neighbourhood of 50-100 families. Large appartment houses are also in this areas or mid range hotels. A mini CHP unit is still a compact unit which can be series produced whereas larger CHP plants are individually designed installations, where the integration into the facility is more complex than just putting a mCHP next to an existing boiler. --Gunnar (talk) 22:19, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

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