Talk:Microsoft Points

Untitled
Are there any public sources that have reported how many Microsoft Points have been sold? It would be an interesting addition to the article. 75.7.33.199 10:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It would be very interesting, but I don't think Microsoft gives a lot of specifics regarding the Marketplace or Points. Tophtucker 03:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Prepaid cards
I notice that the only stores that are said to sell Prepaid cards are all in the US. I would of thought that naming the stores here could be seen as advertising. Also it fails to say anything about online stores.Inputdata (talk) 17:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

"Properties" (...?)
"The customer does not earn interest on unspent Points, and cannot convert these Points to another currency."

This line caught my eye. Why would the customer earn interest? It seems like a kind of random addition. I mean, the points don't change colors or sing and dance either, but no one bothers to mention it because it's just kind of assumed that they don't.

Also, I'm going to go ahead and rename this section "Controversy" because "Properties" is kind of vague and doesn't give a good indication of what the section is about. Tophtucker 03:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The money that customers spend on surplus unwanted points otherwise would be earning interest for them. And presumably Microsoft does earn interest on this money. So I thought it was worth a mention.

Anyway, the whole section was deleted by someone whose user-page says they're a sockpuppet, so I'm putting it back. But yeah, "Properties" was a crap heading for the section. Klassobanieras 21:44, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Original Live
Should mention that the original Xbox Live Arcade used money rather than points. Also, Nintendo has adopted the Points system for the Wii as well.

true but that's a different system of points 71.188.44.87 15:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Vegas Chips...
Under Controversies, it might be worth comparing the points to the chips in Vegas. Casinos prefer you to have the brightly colored chips in your hand to remove (or at least reduce) your association of playing the games with money. Having amounts with the Microsoft's points symbol instead of regional currency symbols can have the same effect. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.26.237.194 (talk) 17:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC).
 * Money is usually brightly coloured though, at least outside the US Nil Einne (talk) 10:37, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Faulty Cards
I frequently use the points cards and found they are extremely robust. Source this claim or remove.
 * I frequently used the cards as well and I found them to be far from robust. Over the to years or so that my brother and I bought them, I had about a half dozen cards that were completely unreadable after scratching off the coating and another ten or so that were extremely hard to read. It made for an extremely frustrating experience, especially with all the hoops I had to jump through to try to get the unreadable cards replaced... often in vain. 75.13.228.10 (talk) 13:59, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Interest-Free Loan
This seems to have some bias attached to it. The same could be said about the purchase of gift cards. This statement could lead one to believe that this is unique to Microsoft when in reality, almost all major retail outlets do this same kind of thing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.55.149.108 (talk) 20:52, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

Bookshops do not require you to buy a $10 book token in order to buy a $7 book. Klassobanieras 12:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Currency symbol
I've reverted some changes of the word "Points" to the image Image:Microsoftpoint.gif for accessibility reasons. Anyone who uses different text sizes, text-only browsers, screen readers, etc. would be significantly hampered. I haven't reverted similar changes to other articles, but would like some discussion on the matter so that some consensus can be established either way. Dancter 17:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's cleaner and more accurate. It also saves valuable space in almost all the articles. It's only used for actual currency usage. I denoted some usage rules in the Talk section of Image:Microsoftpoint.gif. However, for this particular page, I can understand reverting. The Xbox Live Arcade page, though, desperately needed it for space concerns. Also, all references have a real-life monetary amount following it, so the confusion is not really there. JAF1970 17:57, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how extreme the situation was with Xbox Live Arcade, so I can't currently comment on that. But in general, I don't feel that using an image for text is warranted, as it is in Prince (musician). I'm concerned that your usage guideline conflicts with pre-existing style guidelines, such as those for currency and trademarks. Dancter 18:13, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The legality is safe. JAF1970 18:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you mean by that, but the "($10 USD)" formatting suggestion does conflict with the currency guideline I linked to, which recommends something more along the lines of "(approx. US$10, c.2007"). The trademarks guideline states that special characters that simply substitute for English words or are used for purely decorative reasons should be avoided. (There's more detail in the guideline, but that's the gist.) Going into actual legal concerns, as a trademark, the Microsoft Points symbol is subject to the non-free content criteria, which advocates minimal use, and a specific, detailed rationale for each use of the image. Considering how many articles the image is being used in, that last part would be very difficult. Dancter 14:44, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

This is nonsense. Images should not be used for inline text like this. Accessibility, understandability, and blatant violation of WP:NONFREE. Saving space isn't a great reason to use this. --- RockMFR 20:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not a violation. [[Image:Gamerscore.gif]] is used in the same way. JAF1970 20:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The design for Image:Gamerscore.gif is simple and basic enough that Microsoft couldn't enforce any prohibition on the image except where Microsoft is being willfully misrepresented, hence the PD-ineligible tagging, and the presumed immunity from non-free content restrictions. The design of Image:Microsoftpoint.gif is somewhat more distinctive than that. In addition, the use Image:Gamerscore.gif also suffers from many of the same problems, anyway. It shouldn't be assumed that there is a strong consensus for that image and its current usage, either.
 * That the image is "permitted […] by Microsoft for the express purpose of using in relation to Xbox Live Marketplace items" does not establish a liberal-enough licensing for the image to be compliant with Wikipedia's GFDL, and therefore does not free the image from Wikipedia's non-free content restrictions. With that in mind, even with the allowances provided under the policy for non-free content, the image is non-compliant. The fair use rationale is inadequate, as the guideline clearly emphasizes that "A separate rationale must be provided for each use of the image," and that the rationales need to be "as specific as possible, i.e. why you need to use the image as part of the article[s]." Even without those policy issues, the accessibility issues remain. Hahnchen, Ned Scott, and now RockMFR have all been unconvinced, as I have, by the reasons given. Barring any new developments, I will probably be opening a discussion at Images and media for deletion. Dancter 22:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge With XBL Marketplace?
This should be merged with Xbox Live Marketplace imo. AP Shinobi (talk) 14:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I would tend to disagree. There seems to be plenty of content for a separate page, i.e., this page has a substantial amount of information specifically about Microsoft Points.  If this page was folded into the Xbox Live Marketplace page, it would tend to dominate the other information there.  --Slordak (talk) 14:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Updated prices
The prices are vastly out of date and should be edited to represent current exchange rates. 203.122.105.24 (talk) 16:04, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I edited the part about 2100 points being cheaper on pre-paid cards in the UK. I looked on Xbox Live Marketplace recently and found that its £17.00, therefore it is cheaper online. -- Jedikv 21:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Never mind it was £17.00 for 2000 points - I will change it back. -- Jedikv (talk) 12:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Scrip?
The article currently calls MPs "currency", but isn't it really scrip? 193.173.38.232 (talk) 06:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you're right. Retodon8 (talk) 12:44, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality
I feel this article has a critical, not NPOV tone. Compare to the Wii Points article, where I assume the same negative things could be said.

71.170.222.172 (talk) 03:43, 10 December 2008 (UTC)MadCow

On the issue of Neutrality, the final paragraph of Criticism just reeks of bias. For example: What online system WOULD use cash? None. That's obvious. I propose the entire paragraph be removed, or rewritten to something less ridiculous. DoubleFelix (talk) 12:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I did not edit this article in any way, but iTunes or Steam are online systems which allow to buy music (for iTunes) and games (for Steam) with credit cards accounts (or Paypal for Steam, if I remember well). But I agree that the Nintendo Points article should have the same critics. The only point is: people criticized the Microsoft Points system (there are valid sources for that on the paragraph), but did they criticize the Nintendo Points system, even if it's the same situation there? Hervegirod (talk) 15:21, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The criticism is ongoing and notable. It has occurred in numerous places. However, I know Micosoft has recently responded to this criticism. Perhaps we could include their response as well? 24.18.240.121 (talk) 18:35, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

"Free Points" Card Code / Generator Scams
In light of doing some price shopping for XBOX Live Points Cards, I have noticed that there are a large number of websites that now try to trick people into downloading "XBOX LIVE POINTS CARD GENERATORS" in hopes of loading trojans onto their machines. While it is hard to track down concise sources on this malicious activity, I think it may be worth noting in this article that the "free points" that so many search engine results purport to be offering are in actuality, too good to be true. Does anyone else feel the same? --Dragnilar (talk) 06:29, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


 * There are always this type of scam for any type of online point system of any form; They are hardly noteworthy for MPs specifically. Perhaps a short side-link to an appropriate article, but nothing more in my opinion. DoubleFelix (talk) 12:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Buy Microsoft Points
Is this site official? Considering that it says "Green Cube Corporation" at the bottom, I don't think so. I say remove it, and replace it with a way to officially buy points online, if there is one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.62.202 (talk) 06:52, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Microsoft points
can you use microsoft points to by online? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.4.106.182 (talk) 23:30, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Rationale for keeping the currency conversion chart
There seems to be a bit of a dispute regarding the display of certain elements on this page that could be construed as advertising. While most were very much indeed advertisement styled, there are a few elements I wish to retain. It was suggested to me to do some research into the Wiki guidelines to clarify my position on this, which I have done and will now proceed to post here.

As it stands, even though it may not be official, Microsoft Points are defined on Wikipedia as a type of currency. Without getting into the semantics of scrip vs legal tender, I believe that the concept of Microsoft Points as a currency does not really constitute a tangible 'product' on its own.

In regards to the chart I wish to retain, it has been referenced as a 'price list', however I believe this is in error. The point of the list isn't to advertise prices, but is to demonstrate the relative differences between Microsoft Points and various world currencies. Under this definition, I would call it an 'exchange rate list' instead.

After researching the Wiki guidelines and examining other pages of other similar content, I have found that there is no official guideline expressly forbidding the display of exchange rates on Wikipedia. They are slightly discouraged due their volatile nature, but in this instance, since this data will remain constant, it is not a problem.

In these circumstances, it is my wish to retain the conversion chart on this page as an official example of the relative exchange rate. If the main reason it was removed was because it looks too much like an advertisement, then perhaps a compromise can be reached to modify the chart accordingly (ie removing columns that reference a purchasable block etc).

As much as I do not want to provide Microsoft with free advertising on Wikipedia, I do not believe this chart falls under that category.

Thank you for your time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by -=(TiM)=- (talk • contribs) 14:10, 22 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I've removed the table previously with the justification that Wikipedia is WP:NOT an online catalog, and that it content of the table is spam. Pricing varies for all manner of products between places and over time, and the article makes no attempt to explain why these particular price differences are important. In fact the article needs further trimming (I just didn't do it), to remove observations about how many points are in pre-paid cards across countries.


 * -=(TiM)=- seems to feel the table demonstrates something. If so, surely it could be stated in a brief sentence without dozens of examples. Piano non troppo (talk) 15:06, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Just my two cents here. The article states pretty explicitly that the price for points in every currency other than the US Dollar fluctuates with the exchange rate. With that being the case, is it really appropriate to attach an arbitrary chart that is, in all likelihood, mostly inaccurate? SpudHawg948 (talk) 07:47, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm still researching the validity of that in regards to this chart. In my experience using the marketplace (I'm in Australia), I haven't seen the prices change at all, which could easily mean Microsoft's chosen a static conversion rate per currency. In any case, if accuracy is an issue, it's always possible to include a timestamp of the last update next to the chart. —Preceding unsigned comment added by -=(TiM)=- (talk • contribs) 02:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I had a good thorough look around to find evidence of the fluctuating changes in value, but ultimately couldn't find anything to support it. That being said, I'd propose the data should be left defined as static until it can be proven it is dynamic, after which it can simply do what many other Wiki pages do and add a timestamp clause underneath it. The table does demonstrate something. It portrays the contrasts in the exchange rates between different currencies. Again, under the proviso it is exchange rate data, this is totally valid on Wikipedia, and doesn't constitute spam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by -=(TiM)=- (talk • contribs) 18:04, 27 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Everything demonstrates "something". What it demonstrates needs to be given an explanation from a reliable reference. Wikipedia is not a collection of miscellaneous facts. Nor is is a database of facts for readers to draw their own conclusions (i.e., a large table of prices). Will you stop replacing what, without justification is commercial material? Piano non troppo (talk) 08:47, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * If you're going to start talking about semantics, everything you said there could be taken out of context (ie, there are many misc facts for topics on Wikipedia, and many tables that demonstrate exactly the same things here in other pages. And this was a point in my previous rationale above). If all it is is a matter of referencing, I can easily dig up a source or two to reference here.-=(TiM)=- (talk) 01:16, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I personally use the conversion table all the time, so I was quite disappointed to find it had gone - I'm not an editor so I won't put it back but I'm of the opinion that it should be included since it's very useful information and not readily available elsewhere. Saying it's advertising is beyond ridiculous, like MS need to spam wikipedia to get attention!

Also, the thing about fluctuating value is wrong; the price of the points as availabe in shops does fluctuate (both with the forex rates and holiday deals etc) but the price it costs to buy them direct from MS via Xbox LIVE stays constant - and that's the price that's important

In fact, that would be worth adding into the 'criticism' section, since for anyone with an eye for a bargain the points actual represent a cheaper way of buying stuff off the marketplace - if you buy in bulk when you find a good deal on them you get the content for much less, something that wouldn't be possible with prices in real currency. It's a system that only punishes the ignorant/lazy.

Signed - ah whatever, the bot can do it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.168.184.11 (talk) 14:11, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It would be helpful to describe how you "use the conversion table all the time". It's a small table. If I used it on a regular basis, I'd print it, hardcopy, directly from the reliable and up-to-date Microsoft source. Piano non troppo (talk) 12:38, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Sadly, this article continues to get less and less informative as folks continue to remove material over time. We apparently don't want information comparing the stated price to the actual real world price, and we're apparently no longer interested in contrasting this between countries. Why the heck not? We're talking about a system that serves as currency but don't want to talk about the real world currencies involved? Slordak (talk) 18:17, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The generalities about what is "informative" have little to do with Wikipedia goals, which are stated in the core values. "Informative" applies to practically every page on the Internet, but unencyclopedic information is not what Wikipedia is about. Wikipedia is WP:NOT a database, it is WP:NOT an online catalog, and it is not a promotional platform for commercial purposes WP:SPAM. Such pricing information belongs on the company's own Web page, if customers want to buy the product, that's where they should go. Piano non troppo (talk) 12:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Can you please link me to exactly where WP:NOT states Wikipedia is not a database? 'Database' is a very arbitrary word, and on its most basic level, I personally would call Wikipedia just that. As for the justification it's not a catalog, I've already addressed this above. Please refer to my previous notes.


 * I've seen material deleted on account of the "not a database" reason, I assumed the source was WP:NOT. This however, also makes the point. Wikipedia is not a mirror of other people's source material. Piano non troppo (talk) 17:47, 30 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmm, okay. It's probably not feasible to ask for some examples, but I'll keep that in mind. Ah, no, this content isn't being mirrored, I was providing a reference link to provide evidence that the conversion rates are correct. I can see this is being construed differently, so I may just remove that. -=(TiM)=- (talk) 04:02, 1 May 2010

And here I am again, trying to compare the price of points on Amazon to the Microsoft price...on the non-existent points table. That's an indication of how often I use it, and what for, and it's clear I'm not the only one. It looks like you can't see the wood for the trees; why not pull that stick out of your arse and allow this page to actually become a useful resource rather than just bleating about various beauraucratic regulations? :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.109.141.237 (talk) 02:20, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

My potential interests and bias were now called into play, so I thought I'd be as transparent as I can on the matter.

I originally discovered the Microsoft Points page when I was doing research for an iPhone app I wanted to develop that could do the conversions automatically (Which is now complete and released ). After I released the app and was documenting the source, I discovered that the chart had been removed. Checking the history, there had been some protests/reversions of this change, but they had been undone. Since I thought this was unjust, and that removing this information decreased the value of the page, I've been adamant in trying to have it restored, including this discussion here, and potentially culminating in arbitration.

This is simply my belief as a registered member of Wikipedia. I do not have any ulterior motives, nor do I have any benefits to gain from this content being present here. In fact, I've realised that by having this content here, it is in fact decreasing the value of my iPhone app, so logically, it is even against my interests. However, in the spirit of the neutral nature of Wikipedia though, this is something I'm not concerned over. I believe this content is beneficial to the article, and I believe the claim that it is a catalog of commercial advertising is incorrect. -=(TiM)=- (talk) 17:30, 1 May 2010


 * Presumably most pages posted on the Internet are beneficial to someone. The point is whether the material is wanted here by the Wikimedia Foundation, which runs this site. The point is also not whether you would have found it less convenient to find the information elsewhere. It is not Wikipedia's mission to help shoppers save a few seconds.


 * Yeah, and that's probably the major issue here; the question that is it information that is relevant to the topic at hand. And that's depending on our separate views of what this content actually represents. Hmm, and yeah that's definitely true. Obviously a quick Google reveals the same information located elsewhere. -=(TiM)=- (talk) 13:37, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


 * That it's working against your interests, and that you reasoned for the greater good is a personal quality that is much appreciated in Wikipedia editors. In fact, Wikipedia greatly depends on such editors, so I hope you plan to contribute to other articles. Cheers. Piano non troppo (talk) 16:57, 2 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah, thank you very much for the kind words. :) I've dabbled in editing a few other pages before, but this whole experience has made me appreciate it a lot more. If I see any articles I feel I can contribute to (I've also studied Japanese for 7 years, so maybe even translation), I'll definitely try and help out. Thanks! -=(TiM)=- (talk) 13:37, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Third opinion: I don't think the chart belongs on the page for a number of reasons, but mostly because I don't see any sourcing for it. Is the idea that since 80 points = $1 USD, we can then use some sort of currency converter to figure out the relative price of points in other currencies? That sounds like a violation of WP:SYN. (As a side note, http://thewrongadvices.com/2007/03/05/xbox-live-points-converter/ is used as a reference to say that 80 points = $1 USD, and that's a blog - and blogs aren't reliable sources.) The information in the chart is unsustainable and would have to be constantly updated based on someone's own research, so I just think it's unnecessary. I also find a chart that takes up the whole horizontal space right in the middle of the first section to be disruptive to the flow of the article as a whole. —  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 13:38, 2 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi HelloAnnyong! Thanks very much for your input on the matter!
 * Ahh... hmm, yeah I can't really dispute most of that. Hmm, as far as I've read, the currency conversions between regions are fixed, they have no relation to the USD or fluctuating exchange rates (ie 80 points has always been $1.32 AUD), but you're definitely right in the fact there's no definitive source for them all, and I definitely can't vouch that they won't change.
 * Hmm, I also never considered the aesthetic values of the chart as well. It definitely leaves a considerable bit of white-space, especially on larger screen monitors...


 * Okay, I think there's definitely enough points here that indicate while the chart may be of use to some of the users, it's not really a feasible or practical thing for Wikipedia itself. Also, it looks like there's definitely a lot of ambiguity around what it actually represents and the how volatile the data actually is, and as a result it's probably going to be near impossible to reach a consensus that we're all happy with, and conforms to Wikipedia policies.
 * From this point, I'll stop re-adding the chart.


 * Hmm, one thing I've been thinking about since the weekend... potentially as a bit of a compromise. As long as it's an accredited source, would it be acceptable to place a link to a chart that's on an external website? I found one on the IGN website that has most of the same currencies from when I was looking for potential sources on the weekend. Hopefully then it'll still be possible to have most of the data still accessible from this page.


 * Again, thanks for donating your time, HelloAnnyong! -=(TiM)=- (talk) 13:54, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * First, let me say thank you for being so mature about this. I've been dealing with a bunch of disagreements as of late, and this is by far the most civil discussion I've seen in awhile. I don't really have any major complaints with adding the IGN link; it seems to fall in WP:ELMAYBE #4, so I think it'd be okay. Piano, thoughts? —  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 14:37, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah? I'm actually quite surprised to hear that. I would have expected it would be in everyone's best interest to be as civil and diplomatic as possible on Wikipedia to ensure one's opinion would be taken seriously. In any case, you're welcome. I'm glad this article discussion wasn't causing any undue distress. :)
 * Oh okay, excellent. I'm wondering if it's the kind of link that should be placed directly in the content (Just before where the chart used to be) or would be better served at the bottom of the page (Still quite new to Wikipedia editing guidelines hehe). But for now, I'll wait a bit longer and see if Piano has any thoughts on the matter. Thanks! -=(TiM)=- (talk) 01:15, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Putting links like that into the body of the article is usually looked down upon; I think the appropriate place is in the external links. —  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 02:24, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh okay, fair enough then. I guess I'll do that now then. -=(TiM)=- (talk) 13:39, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Add the ¤ symbol to the page?
Hello. I was wondering if we can put the ¤ symbol in the page. This symbol actually represents the Microsoft Point symbol when viewing a message on live.xbox.com or through the Friendz application for Mac. When ¤ is copied and pasted into a message through Friendz or live.xbox.com and sent to an Xbox Live Friend, it will show up as the Microsoft Point icon when viewed on an Xbox 360.Mmark089 (talk) 07:42, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see the advantage, generally speaking, and it may cause confusion or ambiguity. It may be useful to mention that on these pages/services the symbol (which is the unicode generic currency symbol) is used replaced with the MSP symbol though, like it is on the symbol's page. There may be some policy relating to that symbol and currencies that don't have symbols defined in unicode, but I don't have time to look right now.  Alphathon  /'æl.f'æ.θɒn/ ( talk ) 10:18, 30 May 2011 (UTC)