Talk:Middle High German literature

Work needed
The material in this article has barely changed in over 10 years. It's very basic and not particularly good, not much more than a few random observations in fact. The stuff on the genres needs expanding, and it could do with sections on general topics such as the manuscripts, patronage, and possibly some historical background. Not sure whether it makes sense to have something on major themes or whether that is/can be better covered in the articles on genres/works.

It certainly needs a list of the major authors/works, such as in Frühmittelhochdeutsche Literatur, and we could do worse than take some the text from that article. The Deutsche Literatur des Hochmittelalters page is not much better than this one, so it's not as if we can just translate a chunk of stuff from there.

I'll make a start, but there's a long way to go before this article becomes adequate, let alone good. --Pfold (talk) 13:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Judeo-German
I'm going to remove the section on Judeo-German. The history of Yiddish certainly starts in the MHG period, but none of the surviving literary works dates before the conventional close of the period in 1350. Dukus Horant, for example, is late 14th, i.e. Early New High German and is discussed in detail in Reinhart, Early Modern German Literature 1350-1650 and Bovo Bukh is 16th C. --Pfold (talk) 09:46, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed - but do we have an article for late medieval German literature? It tends to fall through the cracks...--Ermenrich (talk) 14:11, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, Early NHG lit., but no we don't. Neither has the German WP — it has just a category: de:Kategorie:Literatur (Frühneuhochdeutsch). Should we at least create a stub? --Pfold (talk) 14:44, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I would say definitely if we’re kicking that stuff out of here (rightly in my opinion given the article scope).—Ermenrich (talk) 15:00, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Do we favour ENHG Lit or Early Modern German Lit? There is already an Early Modern literature page so perhaps we should harmonize with that and have a redirect for ENHG lit. --Pfold (talk) 15:21, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, we have the problem that ENHG lit begins well before the early modern period (1250 vs. c. 1500)... It's a bit of a pickle, but I guess I'd favor keeping Early New High German as the title for that reason alone.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:59, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

"outside the law"
Can we clarify what we mean by saying that the Spruchdichter were "outside the law"? Bumke says "Sie zaehlten zu den Rechtlosen" but I think we and our readers probably need some more context to figure out exactly what that means. I think he might be referring to "Bleiberecht" since he says that none possessed "Buergerrecht" immediately below that. "Outside the law" seems to imply outlawry and the status of being "vogelfrei" rather than what (I think) Bumke means).--Ermenrich (talk) 23:42, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, good point. Is there a better expression? --Pfold (talk) 00:35, 30 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Let me think - I want to see if I can find a definition of “rechtlos” in this context to make sure I’ve understood this right. It will certainly come up if we can find anything about “varendez volk” I think.—Ermenrich (talk) 00:47, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Assuming Bumke's usage actually matches medieval usage (and I'm pretty sure I've run into this term before but never investigated), then the Deutsches Rechtswoerterbuch offers this primary definition:
 * in der Rechts- und Handlungsfähigkeit aus unterschiedlicher Ursache (Stand der Eltern, eigener Stand, Begehung einer Straftat, Ächtung, Bann) und in unterschiedlichem Grad eingeschränkt
 * So I'm actually not sure how to express this in English. Maybe "of limited legal capacity"?--Ermenrich (talk) 00:53, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, they are outside the feudal system, without protection and without obligations. Is it the same as "lordless", or is that only applicable to warriors? --Pfold (talk) 09:13, 30 January 2021 (UTC)


 * It’s more serious than being lord less: I believe they have a limited capacity to bring legal actions or serve as witnesses, etc. the fact that one Spruchdichter seems to have been Jewish (Süßkind von Trimberg) offers a clue. Medieval German law was “personal law” that applied to a person rather than a territory, so someone under Swabian law continued to be judged under Swabian law even if they were in a place where most people used Saxon law or Magdeburg law or whatever. The Rechtlose had no law of their own and were thus excluded from most legal actions. Here are a couple choice citations from the DRW to illustrate what it means:
 * swelch sun an sins vater lib ratet oder vrevelichen angrifet ... und er daz vor dem rihter beziuget, ... der selbe si elos und rehtelos ewichlichen, also daz er niemer wider chomen mag mit deheiner slahte dinge zi sinem rehte (1235 MainzRLFr.(Const.) 251)
 * daz alliu diu kint diu von der sünde werden geborn ... diu müezent schaden haben ... êlôs und erbelôs und rehtelôs müezent si sîn maniger hôhen êren, beide geistlîcher unde werltlîcher êren (um 1275 Berth.v.Regensb. I 178)
 * wer rechtlos ist. unde wirt ein man geuangen vnd fuͤr gerichte pracht der mak dehein urteil verwerfen noch vinden noch der in der echte ist noch der in dem panne ist noch mac nieman seins rechten helfen vnz ez auz disen noͤten kvͤmpt (nach 1280 Schwsp.(Langform M) LR. Art. 158)
 * der [Friedebrecher] sol ze stunt erlos, rechtlos von sin burgrecht oder landrecht sin (1397 EidgAbsch. I 91)
 * rechteloise luide sijn drierley: die yerste synt rechtelois, als dat sij in den rechten niet tugen en moigen ind dat sy geen wordt spreken en moigen voir't gericht, ind dat synt speelluide mit ontemeliken beesten om gelt ind voirt die eerloise lude. ind dese eerste rechteloise luide moigen wail wijve nemen, want die moigen oir guet erven. die ander die rechtelois sijn, die sijn rechtelois an oer guet, soe dat sij dat niet en moigen vergeven noch vercoepen, ind dit sijn diegeen, die oir guet in dat conincklicke gewalt gedeilt is. die derde sijn rechtelois an lijve in an guede. aen lijve soe, dat men oen wail verslaen moit, aen gued soe, dat hij niet erven en mach. ind dit sijn die huusbrekeren ind verachtede luide ende vervestede luide. soe wie van den richter vredelois geleget wort of die mit echter luide wijve hemeliken synt, soe wie hant of lijf lediget, dat on mit recht verdeilt is, dese is rechtelois (1426/40 KleveStR. Art. 357)
 * This last definition is specifically about minstrels not being about to function in court (I can provide rough translations but I think you read MHG and FNHG pretty well, right?). I was looking for a concise definition in my overview German legal history but they don't address the issue, unfortunately.—Ermenrich (talk) 13:11, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Your new wording does the job — for the purposes of this article there's no need to worry about precise equivalence.--Pfold (talk) 14:48, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Follow-up
I've just added "main" links to Chivalric romance and Epic poetry as a preliminary to rewriting those sections. However, the pages linked to aren't particularly inspiring and have scant coverage of the German traditions. Of course there are pages on the individual German romances and epics, but little general material at the level of genre - certainly nothing to compare with the excellent Chanson de geste article.

For the romance, the solution is either to add a specifically German section to Chivalric romance or to have a new German courtly romance page.

With the heroic stuff, I don't think there's any point in adding a section to Epic poetry, which is very general, but there is already a related Germanic Heroic Age article, while, bizarrely, Germanic heroic legend redirects to Alliterative verse. Is the solution to turn Germanic heroic legend in to a more literary article, or is there a case for a German heroic epic page. (There is already a Heroic lay article I created a while back as support for the Hildebrandslied.) --Pfold (talk) 19:05, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I had been planning at one point to write an article on Germanic heroic poetry, but it's a fairly big task and I haven't gotten around to it in three years. That said, I think I could still do it, even though just based on the books I have its likely to not cover Old English very well. If you pester me about it periodically, I'll be sure to at least give it a start ;-). There are some other people on the Wiki who could possibly help a bit with the non-German parts. Maybe I can try making a stub to start.
 * You're right about chivalric romance as well of course...--Ermenrich (talk) 19:50, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I think we can rely on the Anglo-Saxonists and Scandinavians to cover their areas. A single para stub with a list of works and a brief bibliography (Leinert, Millet, Uecker spring to mind) would be a perfectly adequate start for Gmc heroic poetry. BTW, have you seen the list at Liste von Figuren der deutschen Heldenepik?
 * I'll try and find time to do a stub for German courtly romance on similar lines.--Pfold (talk) 10:07, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

German courtly romance
OK, a basic German courtly romance article is now up for scrutiny and improvement. Haven't yet given any thought to its further development. We need to find a way to get it linked from Chivalric romance, too. --Pfold (talk) 19:20, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Good work! I'll try to put together something on Germanic heroic poetry of equal length as soon as I'm able! I have all the literature already that I should need.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:41, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I've started work at User:Ermenrich/sandbox. As I suspected I'm having trouble taking half measures, but I anticipate having something presentable by the end of the week.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:51, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I'm sure somewhere along the way you have learnt how to trim! --Pfold (talk) 18:06, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you think I should include any more info on MHG heroic poetry in particular, or is the current set-up fine? I'm thinking it's about ready to move to main space.--Ermenrich (talk) 16:40, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I think it needs more here. German courtly romance grew out of what I was writing for here, so once I'd launched that page, I did a cut-down version with just the essentials so that this page has a basic intro to what's on that page. It's a major genre for the period so it needs to look like it, even if there is much more elsewhere - as also with the Minnesang section. --Pfold (talk) 17:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm wondering what to do about the shorter narratives - they're not exactly a genre. --Pfold (talk) 18:06, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, we can include Mæren and Schwänke as a genre, or potentially have a heading "Maere, Schwank, and Fable" or something like that. Or we can follow Grübmüller and talk about "Novellen", although he mostly means maeren.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:10, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Heroic epic - just the job! I think I'll cover shorter narratives ingeneral terms and not worry about dviding into genres. --Pfold (talk) 09:28, 19 February 2021 (UTC)