Talk:Midsummer/Archive 1

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—Yamara ✉  09:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Picture scam?
Just take a look at the pictures "from Denmark" and "from Finland"... the bunny there for example stands in pretty similar position... I'll try to upload a pic from Finland --sigs

Importance in Spain
Midsummer in the Catalan speaking communities of Spain is the most heavily celebrated night of the year. I live in Barcelona, and can attest that there are more people out celebrating than even in New Year's eve. The entire city is lit with huge designated bonfires, where folks are allowed to feed the fire with any old piece of wooden furniture they want to burn. The beaches are packed. Absolutely everyone is out celebrating, families take tables out on the streets and have traditional dinners with special food, fireworks are going off 3 days before the feast, and every year the regional governments toy with the idea of making this feast (in the guise of Saint John's) THE official holiday of the Catalan Counties. Just wanted to clarify this because from reading the article one would get the impression that outside the picture-perfect Ikea midsummer parties of Scandinavia, not much happens elsewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manuellebron (talk • contribs) 09:45, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

whaaa?!!
"Midsummer in Finland is celebrated a lot more intensely as in Sweden. A great many people get indecently drunk and happy." this sounds kind of bs-y...


 * :) it is --sigs

and midsummer in finland is NOT celebrated on the same day than in the rest of the world but the closest friday to the 24 which then is an national holliday. The reason??! Becaust the govornment dont want people to take the rest of the week off on sickleave! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.102.110.116 (talk) 20:30, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Page necessity
Is this page necessary? I think other holidays have their traditional aspects and Neopagan aspects merged together in one page. - Montr&eacute;alais


 * The traditional holiday celebration does have its origin in pagan roots, but this is not the same as saying that it is still part of a ritualistic cult celebration. I couldn't see how it was be possible to preserve the integrity and references of the existing entry and avoid giving this connotation to the traditional holiday. I think there are issues with neopagan connotation in other entries relating to traditional holidays. -- Mic


 * Actually, I think the point is that the neopagan holiday celebration has its origin in traditional roots. I would favour merging them and also Midsummer Day, which is the English tradition comparable to the Scandinavian ones mentioned on the "(holiday)" page. &mdash;Ashley Y 22:54, Nov 29, 2003 (UTC)


 * OK, I've merged them. The idea is that midsummer is simply a time of the year, and different people do different things with it. &mdash;Ashley Y 00:16, Dec 1, 2003 (UTC)


 * Midsummer is a very important issue in many countries. If you live far up north, more than 50 degrees north latitude, the difference between the light in the summer and the winter is very significant, and midsummer is by some people seen as more important as Christmas. Actually, Christmas was placed at december 24th, because it replaced the old "mid-Winter" party. In Denmark, this Midwinter party was named "Jul", and before Christianity it was celebrated by eating and drinking a lot and having a good time. Today, Danes still celebrate Jul at december 24th, by eating and drinking a LOT and having a good time. Christmas dinners with lots of alcohol is probably the aspect of Jul (Christmas) that Danes spend most time on. The Danish name Jul which predates christianity, is also found in the English name "Yule". It is fine to merge midsummer descriptions for several countries, since all the countries are newer than the celebration, but Midsummer definitely deserves a big article - Lars Dybdahl October 30th, 2005


 * "neopagan holiday"... come ON... it's very much like christmas in Finland for example... would you characterise christmas as a "neopagan holiday"? :P --sigs —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.246.7.56 (talk) 19:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC).


 * I have carefully set links, identified by the conventional bullets, at the end of each section where they describe the festivities of that particular nation. I hope someone won't come along and bundle them all together helter-skelter at the end of the entry with the general links. Wetman 17:11, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Drowned
"The statistics of the number of men drowned with their zipper open is morbidly recounted every year." That quote is a riot! --Tyhjiö 18:56, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Someone is really having fun... Thorri 14:09, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)


 * but it's actually true, what is meant is the amount of drownings with "a contribution of alcohol to the case" (as is said). It's like an idiom; if you're drunk and stand up in a rowing boat, you just might fall over, hit your head and fall into water face down. End of story. So it's not really that bad and might be allowed in Wikipedia, with an explanation maybe? --sigs —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.246.7.56 (talk) 19:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

Astronomical problems
Midsummer Day, or St. John's Day, the Feast of John the Baptist, is celebrated on June 24. The summer solstice now falls about June 21. Is this because of the Precession of the equinoxes? If so, can an astronomer give us a date-span (rather long one, of course) when the summer solstice actually fell on June 24? Wouldn't that suggest when the origins of St. John's Day lie? Wetman 20:33, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Does the discussion about predicting the start of the festival by the shift in days between Midsummer and the Equinox need to take the switch to the Julian calendar into account? Dumbledad 10:08, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * We now have two sets of text, viz:


 * Old version: Solstitial celebrations still center upon June 24, but the precession of the equinoxes has moved the actual astronomical equinox forward several days in the calendar, because the tropical year is about 20.4 minutes less than the period for the earth to make one complete orbit of the sun. Midsummer Night, or "Midsummer's Eve," marks the beginning of the day, which today falls on June 21, though the hour varies because of perturbations. The difference gives a very rough estimate of the age of these celebrations, if it takes 700 years to shift the equinox forward a full day (1440 minutes). The difference, about 2100 years, gives a very rough estimate of the age of these celebrations.
 * New version: Solstitial celebrations still center upon June 24 which was the date of the midsumer solstice when the Julian calendar was created in 45 BCE. The difference between the Julian calendar year (365.2500 days) and the tropical year (365.2422 days) moved the actual astronomical solstice forward several days between 45 BCE and 325 CE (First Council of Nicaea). This movement forward continued until the creation of the Gregorian calendar in 1582. The change to the Gregorian calendar returned the solstice to the 21st June as had been agreed at the First Council of Nicaea.

Is any of this right? Can we get an astronomer/chrographer to rewrite this so we all can get it clearly in mind? --Wetman 14:12, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I have edited the new version so that it should now be OK. BTW the date change has nothing to do with the precession of the equinoxes : JGB
 * I've made another slight edit to remove repeated information that was given in two successive sentences. Fuzzypeg ☻ 06:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Swedes and phalli
In the Sweden section the following quote appears: "the traditional events include raising and dancing around a huge (phallic) maypole."

I hate to be a prude but is there any real justification (other than speculative Freudian analysis) for the description of maypoles as phallic???


 * Fair enough. Phallic questions belong at Maypole not here. --Wetman 20:27, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

False Tolkien attribution
"This holiday is also sometimes called Litha. Its use as the name for this holiday may trace back only to its appearance in J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings trilogy. Prior to that, "Litha" appears to refer to the entire summer season."

I removed this. It's incorrect. The summer season is divided into "Erelitha" and "Afterlitha" in the Germanic calendar. Litha is the word used for midsummer itself in the old Germanic languages. Where do you think Tolkien got it from?

Also, someone should really do something about the troll page crediting Tolkien with introducing American culture to the concept of "trolls". That's just plain dumb. I know it's fashionable right now to credit Tolkien with everything from the invention of hobbits and ents to the internal combustion engine, but this stuff is getting silly. Wikipedia is beginning to look less like an encyclopedia and more like an advertisement for Lord of the Rings. --Corvun 11:45, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Needs clarification? A red herring
The day of Saint John the Baptist is not marked by Christian churches with the emphasis one might otherwise expect of such an important saint.

This statement needs to be clarified. I'm not sure what the author intended by it at all. In fact, the Roman Catholic Church celebrates the Nativity of John the Baptist (June 24th) as a Solemnity, which is the highest degree a liturgical feast can have. It's even one of the few saint's feasts that is celebrated even when it falls on a Sunday; typically the feast of a saint is superceded when it falls on a Sunday, which is the weekly celebration of the Resurrection of Christ. There is hardly any way the that the feast of St. John the Baptist could be given more emphasis in the litugical calendar that it already has. (Anonymous edit)


 * A red herring. The "day" of other saints is always the day of their death or martyrdom, not their birthday, which in John the Baptist's case is the Christian cover for the summer solstice. The comparable feast, the "day" of John the Baptist in the ordinary sense of a "saint's day", is actually the feast of the Decollation of Saint John the Baptist, celebrated by both Catholic and Orthodox on August 29, a feast which indeed "is not marked by Christian churches with the emphasis one might otherwise expect of such an important saint". This information needs to go back into the article, along with the disambiguation provided by our anonymous and disingenuous censor. --Wetman 22:17, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I have added our contributor's description of the church's emphasis on the saint's birthday into the article, pretty much as it stands above. --Wetman 22:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Proposal: Rewrite Intro
Proposal by Nowhither 01:21, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

The introduction of this article is inappropriate, IMHO. How about moving much of the introductory material to a (new?) separate page: "Christian holidays with pre-Christian roots". Include material on Christmas, etc. Then rewrite the intro to this page as something like the following:

Midsummer refers to the period of time on and near the summer solstice, particularly when celebrated as a traditional holiday. Note that, while modern Western culture generally considers summer to begin on the solstice, traditionally in the British Isles the summer season was considered to be centered on the solstice, beginning halfway between the vernal equinox and the summer solstice and ending halfway between the summer solstice and the autumnal equinox.) Midsummer celebrations appear in many cultures throughout the world and often have ancient roots. Many of these celebrations have been Christianized, now being known as St. John's Eve, St. John's Day, and similar names, all purporting to commemorate the birth of John the Baptist. In recent years, many involved in the neopagan movement have celebrated Midsummer in ways that are based on pre-Christian celebrations.

I like the later sections of this article, although some of them badly need expanding.


 * This article is about Midsummer, not the Christian holiday of St. John's Eve, or St. John's Day, or similar names. Rewriting the intro of this page to push some ultra-fundamentalist POV by removing any references to non-Christian celebrations of Midsummer would be both inappropriate and unethical.  --Corvun 03:41, August 22, 2005 (UTC)


 * The suggested alternative opening is somewhat generic, pat and uninformative, compared to the present opening. What does a reader actually want to know, when they look up "Midsummer"? Does the present article fail the reader in any way? What's the agenda behind the word "inappropriate" used here? Is there an agenda in hiding the Christianization of pagan origins in a separate closet? The article Christianization has material on Christianization. Sections that "badly need expanding" should indeed be expanded. That's always the better approach. --Wetman 03:59, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Wow! Could we all maybe pretend I have good intentions here? Corvun: "ultra-fundamentalist"?? My goodness. Please reread my suggested introduction. Wetman: "agenda"? I don't want to "hide" Christianization of holidays, I want to put together a useful article detailing the process, rather than having info scattered all over the place. In any case, thanks for the pointer to christianization; I'm glad to see the page already exists. There should be a link to it somewhere on this page.
 * Now regarding "Does the present article fail the reader in any way?" I think the introduction definitely does. First of all, it does not adequately explain the ancient understanding of "summer" that underlies the term "midsummer", possibly leading to confusion on the part of the reader. In the U.S. at least, most people seem to think it is written in stone that summer starts on the solstice. Second, it contains a lengthy anti-christian section that is not appropriate to any Wikipedia article. Third, it contains a bunch of info on Saint Eligius that is pretty nearly irrelevant, and hardly what people are coming to this page for.
 * Again, I think the later sections, and the overall organization, are good. But the introduction is too long, leaves out important info, includes unneeded info, and is highly POV.
 * &mdash; Nowhither 16:15, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Well if there's no agenda, that will be lovely. We'll soon see: the brief quote of Eligius specifically concerns Midsummer and nought else, set in the briefest disambiguation: since it is demonstrably not actually "irrelevant", what is "irrelevant" a codeword for here? Just tell us, so we know where we are. If any text is "POV", as the phrase is, then there's assumed to be an alternate "POV": what is the alternate "POV" missing here then? Just so we know where we are. As far as failing the reader, there is an article Summer, where one might better expect 'the ancient understanding of "summer"' rather than in the opening paragraph here. But closer to the agenda, what is the "lengthy anti-christian section"&mdash;suppressing it, whatever it is, appears to be the agenda: is not that it? Otherwise, a modest and neutral editor might begin by disentangling the Astronomical problems mentioned in an above section. --Wetman 21:56, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Litha
This page states
 * or Litha as it was known by the ancient Germanic peoples and to this day by modern Pagans,

And Mabon states:
 * the term was invented by Aidan Kelly in the 1970s as part of a religious studies project. (The use of Litha for the Summer Solstice is also attributed to Kelly).

Anyone got a citation for an ancient Germanic festival of that name? Germanic calendar lists three months (two regular and one intercalary), which sounds like the whole of summer not a midsummer festival, and is unsourced. Litha is not that helpful. --Nantonos 12:53, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Litha in Ireland
The Quarter Days in the lives of ancient people speaking a language in the Celtic branch of language were not the solstices or equinoxes. That ancient Celts recognized the Summer Solstice at all is a longshot. There is a celebration called Bonfire Night in places like Donegal on the 23rd of June.

Samhain, Imbolc/Oimelc/Lá Fhéile Bríde, Bealtaine, and Lughnasadh are the Quarter Days for the Celts and they are all mid-season in a modern persons way of thinking.

There is nothing unreasonable about the Celts recognising the summer solstice at all. It is recorded on the Neolithic passage tomb at Knockroe, which is also aligned to the winter solstice. If they could do it in the Neolithic, they could do it in the Iron Age.
 * It may not have been unreasonable if they had recognised midsummer, but the question is, did they? The fact that a neolithic tomb happens to point in a particular direction doesn't establish anything about Celtic seasonal celebrations. Fuzzypeg★ 03:07, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

About the Celts maybe not, but before them, definately. It is not just that the tomb is pointing in a particular direction, it is that the light on this very specific time of year passes into the tomb through a very small opening; it is very deliberate. This the same on the west side of the tomb, which is aligned in the same way to the Winter Solstice. So is Newgrange. Also, at the entrances of these tombs there is eveidence for intense fires that we not used for cremation and are most likely some sort of ritual associated with the change of these seasons. Pre-historic bonfire night! The original comment stated that the Celts recognising the Solstice at all was a long shot. This is unlikely as it appears that rituals associated with the summer solstice and winer solstice already existed and were important events in the agricultural calendar.

Julian calendar
Does anyone actually still follow the Julian calendar? I thought pretty much everyone had converted to the Gregorian calendar, which does not move with respect to the seasons. -- Beland 11:33, 25 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The "movement" that is in question is due to the precession of the equinoxes, I'd have thought: the longest day of the year which was formerly on the 24th, now falls on the 21st or 22nd... --Wetman 01:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

The Church of Russia, along with several other Orthodox Churches, still follows the Julian calendar. However, the article as it stands reads, "Ivan Kupala Day is the day of summer solstice celebrated in Russia and Ukraine on 7 July OS and 23 June NS." 7 July OS = 20 July NS, and 23 June NS = 10 June OS. I don't know which is the correct day for Ivan Kupala Day, so I haven't corrected the error. WilliamBarrett


 * Should it be 7 July NS and 23 June OS? Man vyi 09:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * According to an article here, 23-24 June is the old style date. So I've changed the article to reflect the corresponding new style date. WilliamBarrett 12:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Fairies
Is there any mention of Fairies at all? Because when ever i think of Midsummer i think of magic, fairies, etc. Some one should add something about all that. 66.90.167.185 19:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Date
Is there any real basis for referring to the 21st here? To the best of my understanding, while many people get confused between the current solstice date and Midsummer Day, this is entirely in error. In all dictionaries I can find, "Midsummer Day" is the 24th.

Can we get rid of, rather than supporting and propogating, this common misperception? Parsingphase 06:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The shift backwards of the longest day against the fixed (Julian, then Gregorian) calendar is a feature of importance. Isn't it due to the precession of the equinoxes? --Wetman 06:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The Gregorian calendar follows the "sun-year" closely, not the "star-year", whence the precession is of no relevance here. Actually, it does follow the "sun-year" so accurately, that there is much less than a full day's shift since it was introduced. I personally guess that the (re)assignment of midsummer to the 24'th was done early in the era of the Julian calendar, at a time when actually the summer solistice was at or close to the 24'th by that chalendar. (Alternatively, it might have been an ecclesiastic thing: If Jesus was thought to be born in the night between the 24'th and the 25'th in the twelwth month, then perhaps a similar date was assigned for the birth of his cousin.  Nota bene: This is pure speculation, and completely unsubstantiated.) JoergenB 14:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * i dont think removing the secondary solstice date from this article would be a good idea, as midsummer is like an umbrella term for a dozen different observances. However many people were linked here on the 21st because midsummer was listed on the june 21st selected aniversaries as "midsummer in northern europe (2007)" which is, according to this article intro, incorrect. if it was to be included on the 21st it should have said "midsummer festivities begin (2007)" and then the 24th should say "midsummer day in northern europe". currently the bulk of st john festivals are being listed on the 23rd. (which is also correct). i'm going to try and squeeze it in on the 24th. i think it goes without saying that we shouldnt let this happen again. Some thing 15:34, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree that the dates for celebrating Midsummer are not limited to the 21st, the 24th, the 25th, or the exact astrological solstice. All of the above are times of celebration in the various cultures covered in this article. And modern celebrations are often adjusted further to coexist with the business week, moving the celebration to the weekend closest to the date. -  Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 16:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Reference to John
I wanted some reference to the ecclesial holy day. However, at least in Sweden, this is not what it usually is referred as, nowadays. Actually, most young Swedes probably don't recognise a connection between the Midsummer's festivities and John the Baptist. I suspect the same is true in most nordic countries, at least. Some thing changed (although they are also called Saint John's Day festivals) to (although most are now called Saint John's Day festivals), in the middle of a bunch of otherwise good editing. I'm changing back this particular sentence; and I'd appreciate a discussion, if someone disagrees with my change. JoergenB 14:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Totally disagree with the reference--Midsummer is the pagan holiday and is no way related to Christian lore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.26.144.57 (talk • contribs) 23:47, 23 June 2009

Fun Family Time?
I removed the selection

"It is a time that they believe the Oak King's reign is over and the Holly King takes over. The power of the sun is at it's strongest. Handfasting which is a ceromony of union, is performed at this time. It is a time for their rededication. Friends and family gather to feast on fruits and vegtables to honor Mother earth's abundant blessings. A fire pit is lit for purification and protection. They also do pet blessings and it is also a fun family time."

on the basis of misspellings alone. It does not fit in an encyclopedia to be writing about "fun family time". Handfasting needs a link as well as Oak King and Holly King, and some sort of reference would be lovely. --WiseWoman (talk) 07:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

BUT WHY "Mid" Summer? / Page format
No offense intended but the midsummer page seems to be all over the place. My question is why is it called "midsummer" when it occurs at the start of summer, not midway through? Was Summer once centred on midsummer? Were there just 2 seasons (Summer & Winter). Does the mid-prefix have some unusual derivation? [Not according to dictionary.com]

Also, couldn't the various blocks of national information and big flags be condensed to less obtrusive list of references to information on the national website concerned?

Ok, so mid summer would mean to people without timepieces that the longest day of the year is here and a celebration is due. They have just gotten out of a long changing period of darkness to sunlight and it docummented that the sun will already be headed down the horizon. This in itself can create a sense of doom or looming that the sun will now slowly evade until it is represented by the autumnal equinox as going going gone... We match the longest day of light to mid summer and celebrate it as a holiday. that is all I have.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.245.246.6 (talk) 09:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The midsummer once was really the middle of the summer. Somewhat inaccurately assuming an equal duration for each of the 4 seasons (astronomically, the summer in the Northern hemisphere is the longest of the 4 seasons), the start of the summer in the old European cultures (Celtic et al.) once was perceived to be approx. 45 days earlier, i.e. at the start of May (also see 1st of May celebretions etc.). Similarly, spring once started with the beginning of what is nowadays called February, its midpoint being the summer equinox (on the Northern hemisphere). Gulliveig (talk) 09:31, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The modern "official" seasons have been set by legislators based on when they feel like nipping over to Tahiti to warm up, rather than based on any understanding of the traditional seasons. The first of May was from time immemorial the end of Spring and the beginning of Summer; and the first day of November was the traditional beginning of Winter. Midsummer and midwinter were indeed the mid-points of summer and winter, just as the equinoxes were the midpoints of spring and autumn. And they still are, to anyone who takes a traditional view! Fuzzypeg★ 06:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)