Talk:Migrations from Poland since EU accession

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 31 August 2021 and 15 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Eobstfeld.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:01, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Specific Reasons for why the migration occurred
The information in this short paragraph could use some specificity as well as more information in general when talking about the social change that would encourage migration from Poland. Even though Poland changed their economic system after the EU accession, the legacy of its command economy presented many lasting issues, such as the deindustrialization of agriculture, which led to lower wages, poverty and income inequality. Anne White, a historian and professor of the history of migration states, "The dysfunctionality of the communist economy had facilitated the emergence of a sizable informal sector and promoted habits of resourcefulness and self-reliance among ordinary Poles." The sudden shift from the reliance of strong regulation with industries like agriculture to complete self-reliance was what made the deindustrialization process so shocking and treacherous for the average Pole. Another major factor of social change had to do with the Prestige of the Catholic Church in Poland In 1993, the Catholic Bishops used their influence to pass strict anti-abortion laws as well as promote restrictive views of gender roles throughout Poland. This occurred at a time in which Polish citizens began to support the idea of gender equality. These progressions and many more that occurred as a result of the shifting of economies is what ultimately encouraged poles to migrate from Poland. Overall, I plan on adding about ten to fifteen sentences. If anyone wants to comment on these changes, please let me know on this Talk Page or on my Talk Page. Eobstfeld (talk) 23:29, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Polish wages at 70% of EU
There is also income inequality.Uneducated worker in poland can count for 7.5pln net(de facto no minimum wage,only for regular job contract) while in UK there is minimum wage of 5.83gbp net,almost 4x more in nominal — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.4.129.9 (talk) 03:40, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

quick comment
Why does it have the "Main article: 21st century economic migration of Poles" at the top?  Volunteer Marek  07:36, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Exactly!Xx234 (talk) 11:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Copy-paste mishap. Fixed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:38, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

the demographics
The second part of the sentence: "In recent years, Poland's population has decreased due to an increase in emigration and a sharp decline in the birth rate. " is a little bit off topic and needs to be sourced. Also, if it's going to be in the lede then this decline in population/fall in birth rate should be discussed in the article itself.

As to its own merits, it's sort of... inaccurate. Population fell between 2000 and 2007. It then went back up, currently *almost* reaching the 1999 level. But these are fairly small changes. Poland's population basically has remained constant. Without the migration it would've been significantly higher.

Likewise, in terms of the birth rate, the "sharp decline" occurred between 1983 and 2002. It's come back up since then, a little. In fact, a good part of the reason (I think) why population did not decrease between the mid 1980's and 2000 is because of some return migration after the fall of communism.  Volunteer Marek  07:48, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see any year with + migration http://stat.gov.pl/download/gfx/portalinformacyjny/pl/defaultaktualnosci/5515/3/8/1/rocznik_demograficzny__2014.pdf page 33.Xx234 (talk) 13:53, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * + population, not + migration.  Volunteer Marek   15:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, wait. You're talking about return migration. Not net migration. But you're right, it's probably a small effect.  Volunteer Marek   15:54, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Total net migration, always - (p. 33) 0.0 2009. Xx234 (talk) 08:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

FYI, this sentence (which I now removed) was copied from Poland. You may want to fix it there... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:41, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Powroty 2008

 * The promise: http://www2.polskieradio.pl/eo/dokument.aspx?iid=96615
 * The result: http://zielonalinia.gov.pl/default.aspx?docId=13119,https://www.premier.gov.pl/en/news/news/navigation-for-returning-migrants.html

Xx234 (talk) 11:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Euro-orphans no such article yet
The problem exists in many countries. http://www.dw.de/the-plight-of-europes-euro-orphans/a-17268091

Poles abroad and their children

 * http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23214399 Xx234 (talk) 11:40, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * http://www.uni-hildesheim.de/en/fb1/institute/institut-fuer-erziehungswissenschaft/department-of-applied-educational-science/mitglieder/prof-dr-anatoli-rakhkochkine/euro-orphans-in-poland-and-children-of-circular-migrants-in-germany-an-educational-perspective/ Xx234 (talk) 11:43, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * https://liekelouisehuisman.wordpress.com/2014/11/11/i-am-kuba-euro-orphans/ Xx234 (talk) 11:45, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Reasons
Young Poles have been mentioned twice in the short paragraph.Xx234 (talk) 11:52, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

WWII migrations (1939-1949)
I don't have exact numbers but probably two million of Poles were left in the SU after WWII or didn't return after the war from Germany and other countries or left Poland shortly after the war. Some of them declared Jewish or German nationality/ethnicity but had mixed origins. Some of them moved fron the SU to Poland around 1956.Xx234 (talk) 13:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Name
I based the name on the relevant (and outdated) section from the Poles in the United Kingdom article. Any suggestions on a better name would be appreciated. I think Polish sources most often use the (e)migracja zarobkowa (job migration) term (to which economic migration should probably redirect, btw? If the job migration itself wasn't a redirect to offshoring, which I am pretty sure is not correct, sigh.). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:44, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

DYK
Feel free to propose alt hooks and/or review. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:53, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

political
If you want to add that this migration was driven by "political" reasons please provide sources which state so. Otherwise please stop adding this into the article.  Volunteer Marek  16:11, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Really getting sick of this - another throw away anonymous IP account trying to start edit wars. Either try to follow Wikipedia policies or stop it. Please provide sources for the changes you want to make.  Volunteer Marek  04:25, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Weird title
The main emigration wave was after 2004, not after 1989. "Since the fall of communism" is really bizarre title.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:30, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, in my opinion neither "Migrations from Poland since the fall of Communism" nor "Migrations from Poland since EU accession" are adequate. If you do want to focus on the large migration wave and you want to be honest about it then it'd actually be something like "Migrations from Poland since Poland joined the Schengen Area". Plenty of people wanted (and some did) move before but until Schengen, they couldn't. The agreement essentially uncorked that bottle.

On the other hand there was a good bit of migration between 1989 and ... 2004 or 2007. And it seems like the scope of this article covers that as well. So the original title 21st-century economic migration of Poles was the best descriptively and also a good compromise.  Volunteer Marek  01:15, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Scope of this article
Is this article also about the effects of Polish migration on the countries that receive Polish migrants? Or should this be treated in articles like Immigration to the United Kingdom, Immigration to the Netherlands (does not exist, redirected to demographics article), Immigration to Italy, Immigration to Germany etc.? Andries (talk) 10:04, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Balcerowicz in lede
I don't think the lede should mention the Balcerowicz plan. It really didn't have much to do with migration. The big wave of migration didn't occur until the early 2000's, a decade after the plan, and had pretty much everything to do with the visa-free travel and the accession to the Schengen Area. The current wording reads as if the Balcerowicz plan was about removing restrictions on migration or something.User:Volunteer Marek 16:29, 8 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The choice is yours of course. However, by design the wp:lede is supposed to provide fuller background for the unsuspecting reader, beyond the mental foreshortenings of a single paragraph fished out from the comprehensive book on the subject such as the Polish Families and Migration Since EU Accession By Anne White. In the opening line, White mentions the Shock therapy (economics). – Explaining, what it was, is only logical. In the same paragraph White also states (quote): "As the economy recovered (and perhaps also as a result of migration) unemployment then began to fall..." Here's how the recovery and the migration have been linked together from the onset by the same author. So in a sense, this is a clear case of WP:RS.  Poeticbent  talk  17:05, 8 December 2015 (UTC)


 * But Balcerowicz Plan is not discussed in the article body itself (nor should it be). The quote from White seems to talk about the effect of migration on unemployment, not about the plan's effect on migration.User:Volunteer Marek 07:00, 12 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Balcerowicz Plan led to crippling poverty and high unemployment(in addition to high crime, fall of living standards, suicides and homicide), being Polish I lived through it and it was a hellish nightmare. Even today I remember starving pensioners shuffling their feet as they searched for food in thrash cans, and my family eating moulded bread, stripped of work, dignity and chances of living a normal life.Sadly for those not part of the 10% not much has changed in Poland since those days. In any case the terrible living conditions and unemployment created by Balcerowicz Plan led to migration. White and others point out to this.I will add scholarly works on this.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:27, 9 December 2015 (UTC)


 * We're not interested in your WP:OR. And anyway, the question is how it relates to immigration and is there a source to connect it? White does NOT "point that out". User:Volunteer Marek 07:00, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * In fact White (and yes, others) directly contradict you. Please don't misrepresent sources.User:Volunteer Marek 07:03, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * As a living witness to this events from country you try to describe, I thought my experience would be interesting. In any case White and others actually support what I am saying, if you want to dispute this, fine I can add quotes from White and others.

--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 10:40, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

"After Poland joined the European Union, Polish people acquired the almost unlimited right to work in other EU member states. "this is wrong
Poles gained immediate right to work in UK only out of the major countries. In others there were long transition periods, for example in Germany 7 years.So initially not every one could escape. Of course today not everyone has money or social network to flee Poland to find jobs, so the escape route is for rich or well connected only too. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:01, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree that this is a very serious ommission. I will add it if I have time. The Poles that I met in the Netherlands at work were neither rich nor well connected. Andries (talk) 06:35, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

The Poles that I met in the Netherlands at work were neither rich nor well connectedIf you are Westerner, that might be the case.But for many Poles like me they sure would be.If you have more sources, please add them, I welcome new contributions :)--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 11:17, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Regarding this sentence: "After Poland joined the European Union, Polish people acquired working rights in some EU countries, with others implementing transition periods.UK, Ireland and Malta allowed Poles to work freely without any limitations from the start, and by december 2015, 12% of Polish labor force left for UK to legally work there." - it's fine for the main text but it's just too much detail for the lede.User:Volunteer Marek 17:00, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Removal of unemployment as reason of emigration
I have restored deleted sources about unemployment being the main reason for emigration. It is sourced well enough and a pretty obvious reason. If anyone disputes this I can add other scholarly sources about this rather obvious motivation.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 10:39, 12 December 2015 (UTC)


 * 1) Unemployment is already in there, you're just putting it in repeatedly to fit your POV. 2) Source does not say that unemployment is the "main" reason for migration.User:Volunteer Marek 15:35, 12 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Again, unemployment is already mentioned in the "Reasons" section. I see no point in having the same text in three different times except to beat the reader over the head with someone's POV.User:Volunteer Marek 15:39, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Emigration and unemployment is mentioned strongly in all scholarly sources on Polish emigration to EU. It needs to be included in the lead in clear manner, not in vogue statements about "better job opportunities" which can mean several things. If you believe any sources are misinterpreted ask or request a quote.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:47, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't have to ask or request a quote because I can read them myself and see that they are being misrepresented. "Better job opportunities" is actually perfect for the lede as it summarizes, which is what the lede is suppose to do. It covers both wage differential factor and the unemployment factor in migration. Oh and you didn't actually respond to my comment just made a completely irrelevant claim.User:Volunteer Marek 20:42, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

"Emigration of Poles, relatively insignificant in the first decade or so after the fall of communism in 1989"
This sentence seems to be dubious one. Other sources say that before EU accession around 650,000 Poles each year left to work in Western Europe, and many were working illegaly.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:53, 12 December 2015 (UTC) I checked the source, it was saying about "modest" emigration, not insignificant.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:56, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Schengen Area
It's sort of ridiculous that the Schengen Treaty is not even mentioned in this article.User:Volunteer Marek 20:32, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

"accession to the Schengen Area in particular" - not sure what access to Schengen has especially with first wave of emigrations to UK and Ireland, which never joined Schengen. Schengen has benefited "near-shore-emigration"/cross-border life style and businesses, so to countries like Germany and Austria and e.g. Amazon warehouses in west Poland catering for Germany and lots of other pan-European businesses, but it is economy, connections and sometimes friends network, not just direct proximity that steers emigration decisions. Adabar (talk) 20:03, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Sigh
This sentence: ''"through (sic) there are indications that the number is slowly raising and is now approaching the peak level of 2.2–2.3 million again"

Is sourced to these three sources, ,. The first is not reliable (although the original from SDZ would be), the other two probably are reliable. However,they all are about the situation in 2012. Not the "now" in "now approaching". Surely we can find more up to date info? User:Volunteer Marek 20:51, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Outdated data
Some of the information here is very outdated. For example, according to Eurostat there were 845 thousand immigrants living in the UK who were born in Poland, compared to 549 000 in 2011. Also, I think the article should decide if it mentiones citizens, or Polish immigrants born in Poland. Because in the first scenario it also includes the children of Polish nationals born abroad.