Talk:Milan Bandić

Article + some of the information contained in it
This article reads at times like a pamphlet made by Croatian people's party.


 * Well, fix it then. This is a free encyclopedia which anyone can edit.

I will only concentrate on one rather nonsensical assertion: Since Zagreb generates almost 80% of Croatia's GDP, and the city budget exceeds 6.8 billion kuna...

Should I be surprised that this assertion has not been backed by any reference?

The city of Zagreb generated 32 percent of Croatian GDP in 2003. Privrednik vjesnik has published this article in 2006. It gives the accurate figures even if the interpretation is sometimes flawed as Ms Brcic has a tendency to mix GDP in absolute terms with GDP per capita. 83.131.20.140 07:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Good, now that you pointed this out, the article is fixed. If you have any more observations, please post them. --Dijxtra 09:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The incidents section says: The officer finally turned him in, but lost his job when the media found out about the incident. The officer lost his job because of what? Turning the mayor in or making a media story? This needs some explanation since it is not very obvious. --Tone 20:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Because of the media. AFAIK, first he reported Bandić's misdeed, then a few days later newspapers wrote about it and the police officer lost his job as a consequence. It's unknown and improbable that the officer himself created the media story; the sources tell us nothing about that. Admiral Norton (talk) 20:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I ment making an appearance in a media story in fact. Anyway, he was basically fired because he was doing his job? Was there another affair following? An extra sentence or two would help a lot. (I assume you want to get the article to FA some day, that's why I am pointing the tricky points up now already) --Tone 20:58, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Second Half of GA Review
For some reason the second half of my review did not show up on this talk page. I appears to be corrected, I apologize for the mix up. I will monitor this page over the weekend and into next week for corrections and then make my determination. H1nkles (talk) 15:09, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Image
LOL, the image is absolutely terrible... I know the guy is generally unpopular and I'm not his fan either, but the image makes him look like a werewolf or something. If anyone has a better one please upload it. -- DIREKTOR  ( TALK ) 12:43, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Controversy section
Two remarks: Perhaps I'll do a bit of rearranging myself, but please do beat me to the punch. GregorB (talk) 10:28, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Bandić wasn't merely accused of drunk driving; he was drunk (0.16%, over three times the legal limit) and had to be removed from his car by force, after a police chase. Prior to being stopped by the police, he caused a minor accident.
 * A very nasty January 2006 incident with a journalist is also given a fairly cursory coverage - on a par with a comparably trivial illegal parking event in 2008.

Expulsion from SDP?
There has been talk about expelling him from the SDP for running for president again Josipovic, which has created great controversy. Should this be added in the first paragraph? --Jesuislafete (talk) 21:41, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

wife?
This interview has me thinking about their separation/divorce in the 1990s, and their living situation. I don't know if this should be added in personal life.--Jesuislafete (talk) 02:12, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Has you thinking in what way? --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 18:08, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, when his wife said in the interview that he's a "perfect man", my first thought was: if he is perfect, why did you divorce him? The information is relevant, as the issue of fake divorce was brought up by Josipović, but one must not draw conclusions from the interview (well, at least not in the article). GregorB (talk) 16:07, 9 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh, yes, that's a bit strange. The apartment issue is already described in this article, but not to the full extent. It probably is a relatively minor issue, it surfaced in the campaign only as a retort for charges of hipocrisy. Then again it may be indicative of the low standard to which a politician is held. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 20:01, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

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NPOV tag
I saw that you worked on the article last year, I reconstructed the article a bit, do you think that his Political career section is still NPOV disupted? Vacant0 (talk) 17:54, 28 February 2021 (UTC)


 * The article was still highly POV, mostly by omission, but it also contained a number of factual errors and text which failed verification in the sources. Therefore I have rewritten it from the start. There are still areas that could be improved, but I think the article is a lot more comprehensive now.  Daß &thinsp;  Wölf  18:15, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * What the fuck? I've just removed a bunch of material from the lead, accusing Bandić for everything wrong in the city, including abandoned urban planning, overbuilding, record-breaking 251 criminal complaints, arrested on charges of corruption in the Agram affair, Little was done on the field of public transport, drunk driving,  legacy was an earthquake-damaged city in debt, embroiled in nepotism and clientelism scandals, etc, in just four overlong paragraphs. He certainly was not a saint, but this is not a way to write a Wikipedia article, and WP:BLP still applies, his death being quite recent. And I have no stomach to go through the rest of the page, so I'm inclined to just slap the POV back. 500 references does not make an article neutral when they are just used as a dumping ground for everything wrong that happened in the city in this century. No such user (talk) 12:58, 14 May 2021 (UTC)


 * "What the fuck"? Well naturally, people are inclined to disbelief after having a Kubura-level clean article up for apparently more than a decade. I would suggest checking the references. Most of the references regarding urban planning are cited to academic sources, not mere newspaper articles, and none of the facts cited to newspaper articles are in dispute. The scholarly consensus, including international journals is that his mayoralty was deleterious to the city, and the papers use the wording you have removed. Plenty of sources, including scholarly ones, essentially cite that Bandić ruled the city in an absolutist manner, hence the complaint that he doesn't have to do with bad things that happened in the city has no ground in my view. As far as scandals go, a number of high-ranking Bandić administration employees were arrested, tried and convicted on various corruption charges (some referenced in the article and appropriately sourced of course), and a dozen or two more scandals exist that I know of which aren't on the page; it is no exaggeration that he was the most scandal-ridden politician in Croatia. The article is newly written and the prose and tone could do with some work of course, but the POV balance is not the problem. Since your choices of things to remove from the lead are essentially the strongest sourced parts, including a €11 billion natural disaster for which any mayor good or bad would end up being remembered (cf. Pero Pirker), I would suggest you rethink your edit. Daß Wölf 13:54, 14 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I really do not care about Bandić, I'm not from Croatia, and it is rather obvious he was a lousy major. Yet it can be seen from the stratosphere that the article was written by his political opponents; it reads like mud-slinging from the beginning to the end. Yet, he managed to win how many, four democratic elections? he must have done something good. The article does not miss a single chance to score a political point against the subject, and pretty much every reference is used as a bone to pick. I opened a couple of academic references you refer to, and, while critical of the situation, they do not try to instill how bad a mayor Bandić was and that it was all his fault as the article keeps on suggesting, not so subly. I don't have this article on my watchlist nor I intend to, and I basically stumbled upon it. But I was flabbergasted by the level of gory details in the lead alone. I still think that the article mostly reads like a 200-kb diatribe against the subject. If you check the material I removed, it includes salacious details about drunk-driving, number of criminal complaints against him (everyone can bring a criminal complaint) topped with "State Attorney Office neglected to act on any of those", details of his associates not suitable for the lead section, and so on. No such user (talk) 20:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)


 * He actually won six elections, and you're not the first person to wonder how . To speculate: to me the article makes the case that he pushed to legalise almost a hundred thousand houses/buildings, employed thousands of people, gave populist freebies to young and poor families in election years. That's already nearly 100,000 households influenced and he only needed about a fifth of all eligible votes to win -- the article makes the case that his elections were marked by low turnouts. He devolved the self-government, ran the city companies himself until govt intervention, cracked down on dissent. The article doesn't tie this to voter apathy, but the connection is clear enough to me. Perhaps some (future) book on Bandić will make it. Regarding drunk driving, it was an incident that nearly cost him his career -- I can't imagine we would be considering removing that in an article about an American or German politician.
 * The article misses a few positive points, mainly in his early SDP career. Most of the 1990s era online sources have been lost to link rot. For example, surely he was a key actor in the removal of nationalist name from the Square of the Victims of Fascism as the 1997-2000 opposition leader, although this can't be corroborated in more recent sources (OR: likely because publicising this isn't in the interest of any current political faction). There are independent Bandić biographies by Pandžić and Paparella/Appelt, someone who has access to them could check them and contribute the content. Certainly his 1990s history would explain his early election wins.
 * Yet, many political articles on Wikipedia are poorly conceived: a CV section, a list of achievements and optionally a list of controversies. This polarised presentation tends to always create about the same vague notion of the politician's impact in his office, extolling photo ops while failing to give the reader an idea of what have they achieved that has created an imprint on the society. Those who like the person read the achievements, those who don't read controversies, and both learn nothing. Would it be more fair to paint here a picture of an amiable mayor who just had a few scandals? Would that not beg the question of why there were so many protests against him and why is there so much bile in his obits? Daß Wölf 22:38, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

In my opinion, the lead has to be shortened a lot and his mayoralty section can be moved to Mayoralty of Milan Bandić, while on this article his mayoralty can be summarized. I'm not going to tag it with NPOV but I'll have to look through the article just in case. and, I need your opinions about shortening the lede and the creation of Mayoralty of Milan Badnić. --Vacant0 (talk) 12:05, 19 May 2021 (UTC)


 * At 5,600 characters the lead reflects the length of the article. I could easily see getting rid of 500-1,000 characters as some parts repeat themselves, mainly in the first paragraph; the lead could be whittled down to 4 paragraphs. Re: splitting, I would prefer Political career of Milan Bandić. The mayoralty section already covers most of the key policies and events. About 20% of that part goes to various reader introductions to red-linked and non-linked material. I plan to create those articles in the following month after I'm done with a GAN I'm currently developing in Libreoffice. That will make that section thinner.
 * In contrast, the political career has a lot of growth potential. Unfortunately I couldn't find anything online in reliable, non-tendentious sources about his early career in the Communist party, but there's surely more to write about his rise from D&P teacher to city councillor. His professional relationship Zdravko Tomac could write a paragraph easily. There's practically nothing about his involvement in the Zagreb crisis, nor the role he played as the effective leader of the opposition before becoming mayor, and more could be written about his term as mayor in the opposition in 2010-13 following the SDP fallout, which includes his swing to the right following Tomac's lead (e.g. the Lithopuncture art scandal with cardinal Bozanić) and the ensuing temporary thaw in his control of Zagreb Holding. Daß Wölf 21:25, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

First paragraph
Bandić got to 2nd round of presidential elections, that's notable. He founded a minor political party, that's also lead-worthy. However the one thing he will be remembered for is his mayoralty. For instance, save for half a paragraph about his presidential run in Goldstein (2013), literally all coverage of Bandić in academia relates only to his mayoralty. If you were to ask someone 50 years from now who Bandić was and what he did, I highly doubt they would begin by e.g. saying "he is the man who ran for president against Josipović", just as they wouldn't start off that he was a defence and protection teacher who was, by the way, notable for X, Y... The lead also already details his political CV, so there's hardly a need to duplicate it.  Daß &thinsp;  Wölf  17:23, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The opening paragraph is comically bloated and unnecessary.Kiksam (talk) 18:40, 16 May 2021 (UTC)