Talk:Mildred Harnack

High school name
Error on page: The Western High School is in Georgetown, Washington,D.C.  NOT VIRGINIA! Mourka 02:32, 23 July 2007 (UTC)It is now the Duke Ellington High School of the Performing Arts.

I verified this on their own alumni pages. My grandfather attended the high school that is why the name was familiar to me.

Reluctant as I am to do so
What evidence is there that she ever taught at Milwaukee Normal School? The memorial information, timelines, etc. all state that she went from GWU to Madison, and taught English (NOT German) lit at UW-Extension. -- Orange Mike |  Talk

External links modified
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External links modified (January 2018)
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May be useful for later
++++ Has images. ref>

Todo

 * Page 87. Brysac 2000. Milreds doctorate hit by Nazi's.  scope_creep Talk  20:45, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Worked at the abend gymnasuim from 1932 to 1936.

 scope_creep Talk  23:39, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Possibly use later
Together with her husband Arvid, the writer Adam Kuckhoff and his wife Greta, Fish-Harnack brought together a discussion circle which debated political perspectives on the time after the National Socialists' expected downfall or overthrow. From these meetings arose what the Abwehr called the Red Orchestra (Rote Kapelle) resistance group.

Error
"Fallada was one of the few German writers who failed to obey the Nazi state.[66]" This is false. Many German writers (~1500) had to leave Germany, either because they were Jews, because they were too modern for the taste of the Nazis or because the were known to be communists. And many of the emigrants were organized to fight back. Maybe the source says something like: Fallada was one of the few writers staying back in Germany who failed to obey the Nazi state, but I cannot check this at the moment. FJannidis (talk) 14:10, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yip, your right it needs work there I think. It is an amalgamation of several facts and is not quite correct. It is changed with a slight expansion. Thanks for pointing it out.   scope_creep Talk  17:47, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It is not correct. Hans Fallada is a mass of contradictions.   scope_creep Talk  18:05, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Fallada's real role is really complicated, but there is no question that Fallada was never a Nazi. Some of his books were burnt 1938, and at least one instance responsible for directing the literary production, the "Alfred Rosenbergs Hauptamt Schrifttum", repeatedly tried to put his book on the index, but Goebbels who thought highly of Fallada as a writer blocked it. On the other hand Fallada readily compromised to succeed as a writer, for example relabeling a negative character in a book written before 1933 from 'Nazi' to some neutral job title. He was certainly not a member of the resistance, but obeyed the Nazi state (so for example Ralf Schnell in the Fallada handbook). But some researchers believe his later self-descriptions as being critical of the Nazis, so it could be that the book quoted here is one of them. FJannidis (talk) 18:55, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I started to look at this and spent a couple hours on it, but it started to get quite deep and contradictory, very quickly. There is so much written on the author and the the Fallada article doesn't offer sufficient depth to solve this at the moment. It need seriously expanded You known, that block you have written look like it could be used. I could take and put it in the Harnack article. I could expand the book links out to normalise it, but that looks like a block that would solve this. If possible, could you relate it to the Harnack article. Or I will get the Harnack side. I will do it, tonight I'm running on empty.   scope_creep Talk  19:13, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I still plan to fix this. It is still in the frame.   scope_creep Talk  10:13, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Copyedit request

 * Serial commas: I've marked list phrases with the invisible comment, as some use serial commas and some don't. The Manual of Style allows its inclusion or exclusion, and only asks that the use be consistent in the article. Which would you prefer? — Tenryuu 🐲  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Change if they need changed.
 * ✅. Using serial commas. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Italic phrases: There are a few phrases that seem to be italicised for no reason:
 * [...] nothing at last is sacred but the integrity of your own mind [...]
 * [...] practical solution to the evils of the present.
 * [...] rubber stamp for official views.
 * [...] vivid and full of charm.
 * I assume these were meant to be enclosed in quotation marks, but  (two apostrophes) was used instead of   (quotation mark)? — Tenryuu 🐲  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yip. These can be changed if required to be close to MOS. I use them more out of habit, but these can changed immediately.
 * ✅. Converted into quotation marks. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Fish-Harnack became friends with Martha Dodd, who became a part of her salon where they discussed current affairs. Did Dodd join Fish-Harnack's salon, or did Fish-Harnack join Dodd's salon? I think it's supposed to be the former? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It was Fish-Harnack's salon.
 * ✅. Leaving as is. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * By 1940, the couple had access to other anti-fascist resistance groups and cooperated with them. Already edited. "Had access" sounds a little strange. Perhaps came into contact would be better? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I'll check this. They may have already contact with folk, access equated to secrecy as they began to resist and then became spies.
 * Your suggested is better.
 * ✅. Changed to suggested string. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * William Ellery Leonard was her advisor. Wikilink removed. It seems Leonard is only here to be defined as Fish's advisor, but by itself it seems to be a sentence that looks out of place. He's mentioned further down the article, so maybe we can add in he was her advisor there? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * If you think it is better there.
 * ✅. Moved. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Together the couple edited a book column in the English-language newspaper Berlin Topics. Emphasis in original. Who's the couple? Arvid and Mildred, or Martha and Mildred? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * That is Martha and Mildred. I couldn't identify the Berlin Topics newspapers. It is listed everywhere but no archive. Probably blown up.
 * ✅. Specified. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Fish-Harnack had become used to assuming a persona, or passing, to fool the Nazi state. Emphasis added. Why is passing italicised? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * That was what it was called. Passing. I'll check against the the German sources, but I think what it was called. It was previously applied to something else and was given the name of "Passing" before it was used in this context.
 * ✅. I'll assume it's a foreign word and leave the italics. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Later in 1938 and after almost a decade of work, Fish-Harnack started work on the writing of her doctoral dissertation [...] I think this is supposed to mean "finished" instead of "started"? Or does decade of work refer to a different kind of work than writing her dissertation? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Working on I reckon close to six years and writing it up for 2 anyway and submitted in 1941. . Crack on rewording it.
 * ✅. Going to simplify it to just "worked". — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * In 1940, the Harnacks gained access [...] Same as above. "Came into contact" may be better. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * That sounds better.
 * ✅. Same as above. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * However, industrialist Hugo Buschmann, who was an informant and close friend of Schulze-Boysen [...] Was Hugo a close friend of Harro or Libertas? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Harro for sure. Brysac 2000 p.259
 * ✅. Using first name. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Fish-Harnack was invited to hold a public lecture on the subject of Romantic and Marital Love in the Work of Nathaniel Hawthorne [...] Emphasis in original. Is Romantic and Marital Love in the Work of Nathaniel Hawthorne an essay? A book? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * No it is not.
 * Ambiguous. I should've been clearer with my question: what type of work is Romantic and Marital Love in the Work of Nathaniel Hawthorne? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * According to Eberhard Brüning, it is the name of a lecture, given to students at the University of Berlin by Fish-Harnack. It was supposed to be one a series.
 * ✅. Using quotation marks instead. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:18, 14 August 2021 (UTC)


 * After the war, Tau stated that it was Fish-Harnack who arranged his escape from Germany. In an earlier paragraph, it reads I assumed that it was Arvid who helped him escape, but am I mistaken? — Tenryuu 🐲  ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Possibly both of them or Mildred. Brysac isn't clear on it. She skims over, mentioning that Mildred travelled a lot in the years leading up to the war. It had been suggested a lot of this was to obtain forged passports to get folk out, but the whole chapter is skimmed over.
 * : If the source is unclear, I would remove After the war, Tau stated that it was Fish-Harnack who arranged his escape from Germany, as it doesn't seem to have much to do with the subsection it's in, take its citation and move it to after Harnack organised his escape, which itself should be changed to it is unclear which of the Harnacks organised his escape. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yip, that is fine. There could be another 30k for the resistance work they done during that period, by Brysac is not the author for, it needs German sources.   scope_creep Talk  17:15, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅. Reworded as such. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:51, 15 August 2021 (UTC)


 * While she was on death row and on the day of her execution, Harnack translated the poem Vermächtnis (transl. "Bequest") by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. Wikilink removed. I'm not sure it's necessary to mention "day of her execution"; is this supposed to mean that while on death row, she translated the poem and finished on her execution date? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It was while she was in her cell, waiting for execution. I will check the sources.  page 274. The Harnack family had a great admiration for Goethe. Harnack's parents had met in Rome at the Villa Borghese and it is a constant theme that entwined both their lives. She was working on the translation the whole time she was in jail.
 * ✅. Changed it to just imprisoned, as I'm not sure if she was imprisoned prior to receiving the revised sentence. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:18, 14 August 2021 (UTC)


 * She wrote a daring essay, a sympathetic survey of Faulkner's work. This seems too editorial to be in Wikipedia's voice. Is this quoted from Nikolaisen and Göske (the source provided)? — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I will check the sources. It is right out the Jstor ref. Daring in the context she could be killed or more likely brought to the notice of the Gestapo.
 * — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Are you looking to change this? Reword it possibly?  scope_creep Talk  21:08, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * : Definitely looking to reword this. I think it might be possible to just say She wrote positively of Faulkner's work, as that is not as subjective as using daring. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:18, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Possibly, The daring was not audacious in that form, it was daring because she was thumbing her nose at the Nazi's, to an extent. Every piece that was written at that point, had to go through the ministry of culture, an RSHA offshort, where it was checked for nazi ideals. They could be shot for saying the wrong thing. I may perhaps need to add a clarification, that states that. See what it looks like   scope_creep Talk  08:18, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I think that is fine, after looking at sources again.   scope_creep Talk  08:35, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I have updated the section slightly and the sources. I have taken out the daring, as suggested.   scope_creep Talk  08:57, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * . — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:53, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

@Scope creep: Looking forward to your responses. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Coolio. I've updated and will check some sources on the questions.   scope_creep Talk  09:59, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Updated.    scope_creep Talk  08:35, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to give it a once-over later. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:53, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Scope creep: I think that's everything copyedit-wise on this article. You may want to rename the article to Mildred Fish-Harnack, as everything, from the infobox to the prose, refers to her as Fish-Harnack. — Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that Tenryuu. That was great work!! The reason I never changed the article as I think Harnack is the common name. There is a Mildred Harnack day in Wisconsin, Mildred Harnack Oberschule in Berlin, the honours are all based on the Harnack name, the DDR Stamp references the Harnack's, the stolperstine are in the Harnack name, the German sources are all Harnack name, the Hans Coppi references are in the Harnack name, the other Wikipedia articles are all on Harnack, so I don't see what benefit there would be renaming it. Even Brysac kept the name as Harnack on the title of the biography, as she knew it wouldn't be referenced otherwise and it would make it easier to remember. I don't know if that is a good reason not to change it or not, to be honest.    scope_creep Talk  22:51, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I just bought the Donner, Rebecca All the Frequent Troubles of Our Days, published this year. This is a new biography, published by a University of California academic. On page 12 it states,


 * in Books... Mildred appears variously as Mildred Harnack, Mildred Fish-Harnack and Mildred Harnack-Fish. The confusion stems from Mildred herself. In the US, she called herself Mildred-Fish Harnack, in Germany she called herself Mildred Harnack-Fish.... For the sake of simplicity I refer to her in these pages as Mildred Harnack. I never knew she was called Mildred Harnack-Fish. I wonder what that was for? So there is some variation in naming, so I think Mildred Harnack is definently the common name, but it may change. There is also 40k in that book for the article.    scope_creep Talk  23:39, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Request move section
I request to move the section "Literature/Overall view" to Bibliography section. Grimes2 (talk) 12:42, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I would rather keep it where it is. External links become a dumping ground and the whole area becomes a mess, and nobody goes there. It is the wrrong place for it and MOS in that direction, which is a guideline should be updated accordingly.   scope_creep Talk  13:59, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

All the Frequent Troubles of Our Days: The True Story of the American Woman at the Heart of the German Resistance to Hitler, by Rebecca Donner
Having reviewed the above book, its is clear there is probably 30-40k of new material that can be added to the article, particlarly around the resistance, which is not so clear in Brysac. The Donner book is extremly well written, with a focus and a style that concentrates on specific moments in more detail than the Byrsac book. I won't be updating the article again, at least in the short term as they still several dozen biographies of the people that were important to the Rote Kappelle, but that either have stubbed articles, or none at all, so I will be concentrating on them. Somebody should update it.  scope_creep Talk  22:04, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Guillotine
Can the cause of death be changed to assassination by guillotine? 67.180.204.34 (talk) 23:19, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Stolpersteine
Stolperstine is a great name, but Stolpersteine is cobblestones likely to make you stumble.--Ralfdetlef (talk) 18:50, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Please consider to copy your comment to Talk:Stolperstein the place where the Stolperstein experts meet. JimRenge (talk) 19:25, 29 October 2023 (UTC)