Talk:Miles M.15

Aeroplanes, Naming Of
The Miles M.15 is variously referred to as the Miles T.1/37 Trainer, Miles M.15 T.1/37, etc. I have limited myself to using only Miles M.15, to avoid ambiguity with the Heston T.1/37 that doesn't otherwise have a unique name. It also helps to separate the Air Ministry Specification from detailed aircraft specifications and from individual aircraft types. Alternative views welcome.PeterWD (talk) 15:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The new Peter Amos book calls it the Miles M.15 Trainer. MilborneOne (talk) 17:25, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Lukins' 1945 label is "the T.1/37 Trainer M.15", but the diagramm is "Miles M-15A (T.1/37)".TSRL (talk) 18:18, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Specs and subtypes
Neither Lukins nor Brown have performance specs, but the M.15 underwent tests against T.1/37 so there must have been numbers, once. I could find nothing in the Flight records. Also: the 1/72 g/a diagram in Lukins is labelled M-15A. Does anyone know the significance of the "A"?TSRL (talk) 16:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No mention in the Amos book of the M.15A just the Mk I and Mk II. Pretty sure id the A was official then Amos would have mentioned it. MilborneOne (talk) 18:23, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Would have thought so, though the A suffix does sound like Miles' standard practice, e.g. with the M.11. I wonder if letters are Miles and Mk numbers not Miles but Air Min.  Does Amos make it clear if the span we quote (33' 5") is for the Mk I (unclipped)?TSRL (talk) 18:52, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

From Amos page 280. MilborneOne (talk) 21:31, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I - span 33ft 5in len 29ft 6in ht 10ft 5in
 * II - span 33ft 6in len 29ft 0in ht 10ft 5in

First Flight
The infobox has First flight 4 Feb 1939, Amos has the first flight as probably on 22 September 1938 flown by Bill Skinner. 4 February 1939 was its delivery to the A&AEE Martlesham Heath. MilborneOne (talk) 17:29, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * When building the page, I was aware that the Brown book was old hat, and that the new Amos book included at least M.14, so a likely best source, but no massive devotion to Miles so not yet committed to spend the money on that. I was going to await return of people from NW before putting queries to them about M.15. Meanwhile, I've got an extract from JJH's L-register, L7709 looks like a typo, but L7717 is perhaps info not seen elsewhere: (quote) L7706, L7709 Heston T.1/37 prototypes to Contract 678258/37; L7706 to 2371M 11.40; L7709 not delivered(cr/lf) L7714, L7717 Miles M.15 prototype to Spec T.1/37 to Contract 678259/37; L7717 not built (endquote)PeterWD (talk) 17:51, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Amos is well worth it a really detailed book (up to the M18). it has the following for the M.15:


 * Mk I - #641 tested as U1 then to L7714
 * Mk I - #1076 alloted L7717 not completed
 * Mk II - #1077 test flown as U-0234 then to P6326. MilborneOne (talk) 18:01, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * On the face of it, the 4 Feb 1939 date seems to align with other Miles aircraft with cns near 1077 (in the Brown book), hence probably f/f date for U-0234, not L7714 as Brown wrote.PeterWD (talk) 18:34, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, belay that bit - the Martlesham mention hadn't reached my consciousness.PeterWD (talk) 18:42, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Presumably all three T.1/37 contenders were with the A&AEE at Martlesham for the trials in 1939 (unless you believe Lukins, in which case 1938!).TSRL (talk) 18:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)Question I should have added here is, did both Miles machines go there and if so, together?TSRL (talk) 19:10, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It appears that 1077 was built after the T/137 trials, first flight is unknown but it flown to RAE Farnborough on the 23 May 1939. MilborneOne (talk) 21:28, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Phillips and Powis
When building the M.15 page, I had problems resolving when to write Phillips and Powis, and when to write Miles Aircraft. Just studying the Brown book plus Gunston's World Encyclopedia of Aircraft Manufacturers, it looks to me as if F.G.Miles and later George Miles were employees of Phillips and Powis Ltd from 1933 to 1937, then also major shareholders until 1941 when they renamed the company Miles Aircraft Ltd. This is not clear on the WP page for Miles Aircraft. Miles experts please step forward and give us some consistent guidance.PeterWD (talk) 19:31, 20 June 2009 (UTC)


 * JAWA1938 and 1942 say that after March 1935 Phillips and Powis Aircraft Ltd were the manufacturers of Miles aircraft. At that date they took over from Phillips and Powis Aircraft (Reading) Ltd.  According to Lukins, FGM was technical director.  By JAWA 1938 Rolls-Royce had a controlling interest, acquired in 1936 according to Lukins; there was no Powis on the board and RR's AF Sidgreaves was Chair.  FGM was a director. In 1941 FGM took over the RR interest (Lukins). In JAWA 1942 three Miles, FG, MFM and GH were on the board of Phillips and Powis, together with WH Gatty Saunt (who he?).  The change of name to Miles Aircraft Ltd was made (Lukins) in October 1943.  By JAWA 1956 the company name is FG Miles, Ltd Shoreham Airport.


 * So there is no doubt, I'd say, that the infobox manufacturer entry for the M.15 should be Phillips and Powis Aircraft Ltd, Reading, or as JAWA 1938 has it, Woodley Aerodrome, Reading. No, I got it wrong in my draft, too!  I recall my somewhat similar agonisings over the Willy Messersmitt/BFW relationships.TSRL (talk) 21:22, 20 June 2009 (UTC)