Talk:Militant use of children in Sri Lanka

Old discussions
Karuna group figures Following is incorrect. I have deleted it because none of the references actually quote this figues.

The Times of London reported that over 800 children were recruited by the para-military group in 2006. Dutugemunu 12:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I deleted a clause which stated that Allen Rock was seen pictured with two members of said society at Waterloo University in Toronto, Canada. Not only is the photographic evidence not sited, but proof that the photo is in fact at that university does not exist. Furthermore, Waterloo University is in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada, not Toronto, Ontario... Which also discredits the article.

Leopard Brigade
I'm confused on the subject of the Leopard Brigade (unaddressed by both this article and the larger LTTE article). I've been finding conflicting sources as to the recruitment of child soldiers by the LTTE, specifically the Leopard Brigade. This article as well as this one and this one all state that the Leopard Brigade is comprised of child soldiers, while the wikipedia sources all state that the LTTE does not recruit child soldiers. Furthermore, the paper I read that mentioned the Leopard Brigade made no mention to the use of child soldiers and instead stated the the Leopard Brigade was 'an elite infantry brigade' comprised of fewer than 100 soldiers. While the aforementioned articles do not refute this data, they do provide information, that if valid, would most likely appear under the description of the Leopard Brigade. Any ideas? The freddinator 01:39, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi, the LTTE most certainly recruits children for their group and has been doing so since the war began in 1983. After the ceasefire was signed in 2001, the UN reported that they have recruited over 5000 children. (this is a pretty good article written by an international media correspondent in Sri Lanka about it ). I'm not sure where on Wikipedia you read that the LTTE doesn't recruit child soldiers, but that would be incorrect and it'll be nice if you could please point it out so we can correct it.
 * I'm not that familiar about the leopard brigade, but a Google search provided a lot of info. Human Rights Watch has reported that
 * "Children were initially recruited into what was known as the “Baby Brigade,” but were later integrated into other units. An elite “Leopard Brigade” (Siruthai puligal) was formed of children drawn from LTTE-run orphanages and was considered one of the LTTE’s fiercest fighting units."
 * They would be a pretty reliable source. Also a book about the subject says
 * "In Sri Lanka, the LTTE created two armed units - the Baby Brigade and the Leopard Brigade - formed entirely of children."
 * Just remember that unfortunately, not all sources cited on Wikipedia are reliable. Most likely, if it has the word "Tamil" in it, like Tamilnet.com, Tamilnation.org, Tamileditors.com, Tamilweekly.com etc, it will try to whitewash the sins of the LTTE (ie the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam) and deny they recruit child soldiers.
 * Hope that answered your question, if not please say so and I'll try to clarify further :) --snowolfD4( talk / @ ) 02:51, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ahh, thank you very much. When I said Wikipedia had sources saying the LTTE didn't recruit child soldiers, I meant Wikipedia cited LTTE claims that they have stopped recruiting child soldiers (as of 2000, I believe), even though most sources say they are continuing to recruit child soldiers. Do you know if the LTTE is still denying their use of child soldiers in the "Baby Brigade" and the "Leopard Brigade"?
 * Again, thanks much -The freddinator 23:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I took off false claims that say "civilians have reported that ltte....". The article does NOT explicitly say that the LTTE has done this. It claims that the 'White van' Which again proves to be the karuna fraction because the article says that this has occured in government controlled area. Watchdogb 00:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

If we want proof of white van abduction = karuna abductions please let me know I will be only more than glad to show some. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Watchdogb (talk • contribs)


 * For someone who have commonsense can easily understand this, just after read the title of the ref.
 * I don't care or support to the karuna party, but since you loved to show what you have collected, could you show me those evidence? -- ♪♫ ĽąĦĩŘǔ ♫♪  walkie-talkie  08:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't really know how to do this but here is the links

http://transcurrents.com/tamiliana/archives/286 http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2006/09/14/disappearances_on_rise_in_sri_lankas_dirty_war/ http://hrw.org/reports/2007/srilanka0107/srilanka0107web.pdf http://chandi.eponym.com/blog/_archives/2007/2/8/2717602.html (last link has some detail about how the TRO workers were followed and then abducted by karunas in "white van")

On a side note these abductions have been taking place in government controlled areas and some have even occure in high security zones of SLA controlled areas. Many have blamed that the SLA has been working with karuna (including Alan Rock) and especially of Karuna fraction working in the SLA controlled areas. It is also notable that the white vans were reported to not have number plate and that they were not checked by the SLA soldiers. It then makes way for a very fortified bridge of argunment that the abductions must have been done by Karuna. Weather they work with SLA or not is a whole different topic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Watchdogb (talk • contribs) 03:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

Bias and Wording
Hi, I am concerned with the wording and apprent (likely accidental) bias in this article.

Child soldiers of the LTTE: The article reads that UNICEF says that there are only 506 child soldiers, but that is actually slightly misinterpreting the statement by UNICEF, which is "many child soldiers remain in their ranks. UNICEF, which has had direct talks with the LTTE on the release of underage soldiers, said at least 1,591 still remained at the end of May 2007.1 The figure included 506 who are under the age of 18, and 1,085 who were recruited when they were under 18 but who have now passed that age.". It seems that UNICEF still considers the number of underage soldiers to be 1,591, since they seem to count children recruited which actually does make sense. The statement on this page is actually a gloss which I think is biased. The article then continues with an LTTE source that states that only 84 child soldiers remain. Basically, this entire paragraph is biased: it builds a timeline indicating (bias) that the LTTE is ending child recruitment which is actually not true even according to the UNICEF document. UNICEF says that there is still active recruitment (just releases outweighted recruitment). Worse it cites the most significant decline in child soldiers from an LTTE source :(.

TMVP and intro to TMVP:

Karuna's group IS a break-away faction of the LTTE, which is not said at all in this article. Actually, this article makes the TMVP look like a group that was always part of the government by not stating it is a break-away faction the LTTE and then stating "A Tamil paramilitary group which supports the Sri Lankan government". It should be stated in the following way, the TMVP, a break-away faction of the LTTE that is now participating as a political party in Sri Lanka or something along those lines. This away its past association is clearly defined, as well as its current (pro-government) position.

I edited part of this article to reduce the bias, but reverted after seeing something about editing restrictions (sorry about that!). When can I edit this article?

Thanks!

--Lucifereri (talk) 10:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The unicef claims that 1,085 have passed the age of 18. This means that they are not Child soldiers. Definition of Child Soldier is clearly defined! Thanks. Second, wikipedia is NPOV. LTTE sources can be used as long as they are explicitly attributed - which is the case. Third, the reader can check TMVP which clearly claims that TMVP is a break away fraction of the LTTE. Last, of course TMVP is "Now participating as a political party in Sri Lanka" but they also recruit child soldiers. They are indeed working for the government of Sri Lanka and I can find 10 or 20 reference that claim that the TMVP is working for the GoSL. However, doing that will take the article from WP:TOPIC. Also throoki Karuna is in London because of our beloved GoSL. I can site that too but again WP:TOPIC does not allow me to do so. This is why the shortened version of these combination is given in the article. Watchdogb (talk) 14:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I just edited the part of UNICEF claim and have explicitly stated that 506 is the number of soldiers under the age of 18. One more thing to note is that this article is about Military use of Children in Sri Lanka. Note the special word Children and the global standards for a child is the age less than 18. Watchdogb (talk) 14:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Apparently UNICEF disagrees. Anyways, I think to make the article less biased I will add the discrepency in--it is relevant to the article that there still are individuals that were enlisted into the service when they were below the age of 18; it will also state that they are now above the legal age.  Since this page was edited as recently as yesterday, is it fair to assume I can now edit the page?

Thanks!

--Lucifereri (talk) 08:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree. We need to stick to the topic at hand. Giving figure of so called "Child soldiers" who have passed the age of 18 is not about Military use of Children in Sri Lanka. Of course UNICEF wants to add that figure into their database. This is because they are a humanitarian organization who have not heard anything from these former child soldiers. Thus it is their duty to list these names until they get assurance by these former child soldiers that they are with the LTTE as a choice. Second, UNICEF wants to have the number there as a matter of keeping track. They cannot just change figures as soon as these soldiers pass the minimum date. This would bring them more problem. Likewise another thing to mention is that this article already claims that LTTE recruited many child soldiers before 2007. It also says that LTTE recruited thousands of children before 2007. This number includes those who have now passed the age of 18. So the figure is already there and you concern is already taken care of. It is superfluous to include the number again and deviates the topic to another matter - Former child soldiers in Sri Lanka. Thanks Watchdogb (talk) 00:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I hardly see how it is not relevant--this article is not about how many children are being used by the LTTE and other factions currently; it is about the military use of children in Sri Lanka.  So of course it is on topic :).  Anyways, while I rather not guess why UNICEF does things the way it does, I can see your point of it being superfulous to include what I asked.  I would rather still see the last sentance be taken out--it is from an obviously biased source.  Anyways, I added more information to the page, which I think is relevant (as well as cited).  Thanks for the comments, I do agree with you that what I asked for initially was superfulous.  --Lucifereri (talk) 10:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Before I do any more edits, can I get confirmation that it is okay to edit this article? Thanks!  --Lucifereri (talk) 10:48, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for agreeing with me ! Please feel free to edit any article you want. There is not restriction on editing. There is just restriction on edit warring (thats what is implied by the blue box). Watchdogb (talk) 14:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Some modifications to the latest edit has been done. The claim that LTTE's CPA considers only persons under 17 to be child soldiers is not correct. The given citation claims that CPA's age limit for Child soldier is 17 because of LTTE's own claims. However, the CPA citation claims that their age limit is 18. Watchdogb (talk) 15:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, good catch ;). Anyways, I still think it is important to point out the discrepancy between the LTTE's recruitment age versus the CPA's age?  I remember seeing this age 17 issue on other sources, too...  Anyways, can you send a link to the CPA's 18 years?  Lastly, I (btw, I still have to read the reconciliation pages and stuff to figure out what are citations and not) feel that citations coming fromt the CPA should be corrobarated by citations from other independent sources.  Both the CPA (LTTE) and NCPA (GOSL) are associated with interested parties I believe (although, since I am not too familiar with those organizations, I could be wrong here).  Thanks.  --Lucifereri (talk) 10:04, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * We try to maintain WP:NPOV. There is claims against the LTTE, to which they have responded. The reason we add the LTTE's CPA statements is because this way the article is NPOV. Citations claim that LTTE recruits children and LTTE claim that they have stopped and eliminated Child recruits. Watchdogb (talk) 03:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * LTTE's statements here and here. Watchdogb (talk) 03:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Image of children
REMOVE THE PICTURE OF CHILDREN, IT IS NOT FAIR TO THE CHILDREN TO POST UP THERE FACE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.65.233 (talk) 01:48, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

This Article either should get its name changed, or shouldn't exist
The accusation that TMVP uses child soldiers... is just that: an accusation by someone who has supported the LTTE (a terrorist organization). The name of this article should be changed to "Militant use of children by the LTTE", OR simply be a subsection on a more important, valid article. The LTTE is NOT a part of the nation of Sri Lanka: it's a separatist terrorist organization, so there is NO "militant use of children by the Sri Lankan military", which this article's current title seems to imply. Once again, this should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.135.93.66 (talk) 21:09, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

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