Talk:Militarism-Socialism in Showa Japan

Untitled
Like other edits by 200.46.*, this article is incoherent and probably a copyvio (I nominated two of the anon's previous contributions earlier today.) The trademarks are atrocious grammar, awkward wording, and having no spacing after commas or parentheses. I hope the article creator is reading this because I'm tired of cleaning up after him! (I'd leave a message on his talk page if he didn't use so many IP addresses.) --Ardonik.talk* 00:26, August 22, 2005 (UTC)


 * The English is bad. Some of the articles are copyvio, but most are not. Please do not use VfD needlessly for these articles - they gradually get cleaned up, and VfD is not the place for them. (I keep a list to monitor them, and feel quite strongly that hostile talk about articles by non-native speakers of English falls well below WP's best standards). Charles Matthews 16:52, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Moved out of final section as misplaced. Charles Matthews 12:51, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Some information said about along this "official finish" of these ideology activities, certain Showa nationalism followers, represent by Japanese Army continuing the last-stand fight, against Allied forces represent for Russian Red Army, in defense of Japanese Empire soil in Konan fortress, Chosen (Korea) Province, until November 1945. Others wartime rumors alleged why during U. S. Navy Admiral Richard Byrd intervention in "Operation Highjump" South Pole action against suppose German Nazi Bases (Neue Berlin or 211 Base, Schwabenland and Asgard) in Queen Maud land, during January-February 1947, between defenders of these pretend installations stay some Japanese units too. Theirs supposed arriving by ultra-long range submarines in previous times at final of conflict.

WPMILHIST Assessment
Judging from the talk page, I suppose this is already known, but I'll spell it out anyway. This article needs some serious clean-up for grammar, spelling, and overall organization, if not for downright content. The introduction is far too dense and opaque - launching immediately into a sociology/ideology sort of perspective, with lots of esoteric terminology, and not from a cleaner, more accessible historical perspective. Should read "Militarism-Socialism is a term sometimes used to describe the ideologies which guided Japanese government policy in the 1920s through the end of World War II. The term was first coined by ... who described it as ...." or the like.

This, like the many other articles on Japanese World War II ideology, is representative of a portion of a massive scholarly discourse, and while far too much of that is similarly opaquely written, we would do well to smooth it out and explain out the concepts clearly. Due to the controversy and widespread interest in the subject, as well as the depth of discourse available, this could be an excellent article if it gets some serious attention. LordAmeth 09:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Socialism
I can find no text or references in the article that explain the "connection" between militarism and socialism in Japan. "State Socialism" means that the state controls economic activity. All I can see here is a series of militarist ideologies, underpinning the monarchy and the position of the zaibatsu, both of which are the antithesis of socialism. Grant | Talk 15:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Was there anything actually called "Militarism-Socialism", "Nationalism-Socialism" or a similar name at the time and if so, what is the Japanese language term for this/these things? Grant | Talk 10:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Merging with Japanese militarism
About this suggestion by Grantt65, I think that most of Japanese militarism could be considered as a section of this article. The other parts already here could be deleted. --Flying tiger 14:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi again Flying tiger. I'm not clear about your comment; are you saying we should merge Japanese militarism in here? If so I must politely disagree, because I think that is a better-known phrase in English. Also, as I've said above, I have a problem with the use of "socialism" here, as I think "militarism-socialism" is a neologism and bears little resemblance to the way the word socialism is used elsewhere. Whereas militarism covers all of these ideologies. Grant  |  Talk  09:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I agree that the choice of "Militarism-socialism" is not very good, but I think "Japanese militarism" is much too broad and vague. Stricto senso, there is no concept such as "Japanese militarism" and this title imply that the article is going to cover the 20th as well as the 16th century. In fact, the two articles cover almost exclusively the Showa era. At least, in "Japanese war crimes", the article refer a bit to Meiji and Taisho eras ... I would suggest a new title for the two : Militarism in Showa Japan. --Flying tiger 14:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That is a good suggestion, to limit the topic by date, although &mdash; as I've said to you before &mdash; I don't think the term Shōwa is not well-known enough by English speakers to justify its unexplained use (i.e. in a title). It also raises the issue of when "Japanese militarism" began; the Meiji and Taisho eras were different, but can we completely separate the attitudes and values of the Shōwa era from those of previous eras? Especially since Japanese expansionism begins under the Meiji, as do undercurrents of ultra-reactionary ideologies.
 * How about Japanese militarism, 1867-1945? Grant  |  Talk  04:29, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Having read your earlier comments about "militarism-socialism", I think I can suggest an answer to your interrogations. It looks as if the original goal of this article was to cover not only the ideology of such groups like the Kodoha but also kakushin kanryo (reform bureaucrats) who promoted the Tō'A Shinchitsujo Shakai(New Order of Society in East Asia).

Shōwa reformist ranged not only from military like Sadao Araki of the Kodoha but also to communists like journalist Hotsumi Ozaki of the Shōwa Kenkyūkai (Showa Research Association), who was executed in 1944. Very different background, different means, but in long term one goal : overthrow the Toseiha by military force, with the help of the imperial institution in the first group and without it in the second. Thus, there was truly a kind of militarism with socialist and communist concepts.

These movements were particular to Japan and to Shōwa era. They can not be found in other periods of the history of Japan. Added to the shōwa interpretation of the hakko ichiu, they give a characteristic color to that era and explain many aspects of the Dai Tō'A sensō (Greater East Asia War) and occupation.

For this reason, I think we can just consider the movements of Meiji and Taisho as background. Do we really have to sacrify scientific accuracy to a light problem of vulgarization? Besides, there are already at least three other articles that refer to Showa era in their title (on politics, on eugenism and on special weapons) so, I don't think "showa" is such an obscure concept for English speakers or at least, I think it can easily be explained.

(It's not so pertinent but, just for the info, the french article equivalent of Japanese expansionism is called [Expansionnisme du Japon Shōwa]). --Flying tiger 14:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I guess I can live with Militarism in Shōwa Japan. Another alternative might be Militarism in modern Japan, although that title would obviously include post-1945 developments (like Yukio Mishima). Grant  |  Talk  00:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

It is a good suggestion to include post-war militarists like Kōdōha ways nostalgic Mishima in the article but for the title, I think "in Modern Japan" would be interpreted as "Contemporary Japan" and considered "Japan-bashing", for even if the Liberal Democratic Party is openly negationist, the Uyoku dantai do not represent the major tendencies of contemporary Japan. --Flying tiger 20:36, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Is Militarism-Socialism a genuine term?
Is Militarism-Socialism a genuine term? That is, what was the equivalent term in Japanese and was it used by its supposed adherents at the time? If so, what are the sources for this? Grant |  Talk  16:09, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The contemporary term in common every-day use by Japanese to refer to the pre-war system is Statism (国家主義), and personally, I would prefer that this article be renamed "Japanese Statism", for the sake of accuracy and to avoid confusion "left-socialism”and with Japanese militarism, which are separate issues.--MChew (talk) 17:49, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems that "militarism-socialism" is a neologism coined by the original author of this article. This article should be renamed to either Militarism in Showa Japan, Nationalism in Showa Japan, Japanese Statism in the Showa era, or perhaps we should just use the original term and call it Kokka shugi. After all, the Third Reich is not normally translated to "Third Empire." -- Nikodemos (talk) 10:31, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008
Article reassessed and graded as start class. Referencing and appropriate inline citation guidelines not met. With proper citations and references, this article would easily qualify as B class if not higher. --dashiellx (talk) 20:17, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Requested move
I am proposing to move this article to Kokka shugi, and merge it with Japanese fascism and some material from Japanese nationalism. The term "militarism-socialism" is not used by any of the sources, and it appears to be a neologism coined by the original anonymous author of this article. The Japanese name for the concept described here is "Kokka shugi," which does not have any direct English translation (but has been variously translated as Japanese nationalism, Japanese militarism, Japanese expansionism, Japanese imperialism or Japanese fascism). The best discussion of the term that I was able to find is as follows: "Turning first to the vocabulary of nationalism, we find that the Japanese have rather more precise terms than we do. They have three words for nationalism, which, if used carefully, can render needless the long series of adjectives which I have employed to make the three types intelligible. These words are minzoku shugi, kokumin shugi, and kokka shugi, each translatable as nationalism. Shugi in each case is simply "ism," but what is the difference between minzoku, kokumin, and kokka?

The striking thing about minzoku is that there is no country in it. There are people (min) and clan, relations, type, sort (zoku), thus people of a like type, a race, a people. Minzoku is used in minzoku iiketsu shugi (principle of national self-determination); and national consciousness is minzoku ishiki. Clearly minzoku is our type (a) nationalism. [defined as popular or grassroots nationalism on the previous page]

Kokumin combines country (koku) and people (min), one would presume in happy combination (liberal nationalism).

In kokka there is country (koku), but there are no people, hence kokka means literally national house, or pigs under a national roof, [a footnote explains that this is not derogatory] and it is not surprising that ultranationalism, literally "nation-almighty-ism" (kokka bannd shugi), should stem from kokka shugi."

Seems pretty straightforward... -- Nikodemos (talk) 12:21, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Showa Japan?
The Showa period was a pretty diverse period for Japan politically, with militarism-socialism-fascism dominating the first part and something closer to American democracy dominating the second part (with a nonetheless heavy big-business influence in an age of economic expansion). Shouldn't this article better be called "militarism-socialism in early-mid Showa Japan"? &mdash; Rickyrab | Talk 06:34, 23 January 2009 (UTC)