Talk:Military science fiction

Merge Lists of Space opera and Military Science Fiction fiction media
I think that we should try to merge these list articles: space opera and msf articles with their respective parent-pages: space opera, military science fiction. Me myself, tried to put some exemples into boxes in the main space opera article. I think we can successfully imbue the factual articles with the respective exemples that make sense and aren't just statistics. I think we should do that as well as for msf and space western, too. I think we should do that. These categories and bubble gums are just rubbish. We can imbue the actual articles without making protracted lists that only bore the fandom and the actual representation in this space opra and Starship Troopers as a whole is much more definitive than just a stupid list with no definitive art meaning in the article... just numbers... nothing. I say MERGE asap!
 * Regards: The Mad Hatter


 * I did some changes already to military science fiction as well as space opera articles and hope to proceed with merge soon. I will continue add exemples, but I hope it will not cross-over with the space opera medias. I try to brand the uniques.
 * All the best:The Mad Hatter (talk)


 * ✅ For 3 weeks nobody said a thing, and I decided by Merging guidelines to be bold and perform the merge. Did a bunch of work; history and related stuff is saved, but the pages are redirected. Hope to get assistance, soon.
 * The Mad Hatter (talk)
 * My opinion is that merging these is inappropriate. It appears to have lost significant ease of use in this merge.
 * WP:SPLITLIST states that a choice should be made to either have such lists embedded in the article, or as a separate list. In this instance, they are better as separate lists.  Having a "Selected examples" list then gets into an issue of what is the criteria used to include or not include them in the list.  There will continuously be people wanting to include items in the list which are their favorite, or just ones which they happen to know about.  It is much better to keep these as  separate list articles. Any list that we embed in this article will be significantly less than a complete list of such works.  It is much better to remove the lists entirely from the article and have them in separate list articles.  That keeps us completely out of the issue of what criteria is used to select a sub-portion of such works for inclusion in this article.
 * Per WP:BRD, I have reverted the edits to prior to the merge. My intent was to revert to where we were prior to changes. However, my recommendation is that we should remove any long list completely from the article and place it in a separate list article.
 * I am attempting to consolidate all discussion to this page.
 * Sorry that I am only commenting on this after you were bold and made the changes instead of upon the initial suggestion. I have been taking a semi-wikibreak and not going through everything that has shown up on my watchlist. &mdash; Makyen (talk) 18:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * An objection to the merge was raised by 59.167.111.154 at Talk:Space opera with the reason being "It was really useful but now I can't find it?". That person went so far as to copy the entire list to the talk page so that it was still available. &mdash; Makyen (talk) 18:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes that was me. Thankyou for your folding edit thing. I'm only a casual wikipedia user so I dont know all the procedures. But losing that list would be a terrible outcome. Its a very useful resource, really the only decent one on the net. 59.167.111.154 (talk) 04:39, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I see no reason to merge the lists. They seem valid enough. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:10, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I likewise agree that the pages should be kept separate, rather than merged together. Joe Gatt (talk) 17:15, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Liaden Universe as an example?
I have a hard time with the Liaden books as an example. It's been a while since I read them, but I think that family and friendships on various levels play a much bigger role than any military organisation. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:40, 11 September 2014 (UTC)


 * My mistake, I think it is categorized as Space opera. Sorry for the misdirection, I will put it back in Space opera exemples. The Mad Hatter (talk)
 * No worries. I'd quibble about space opera, too, but less so (and I'm notoriously finicky ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Examples
Many of the examples seem to not really be Military SF. Even "The War of the Worlds". I will remove some. Put them back or discuss if you disagree. Thanks.PopSci (talk) 10:59, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I support most of the deletions. I'd quibble about Stargate Atlantis, which seems to have a significant military angle (much more so than the infinitely better SG1 ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:46, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Put it back in if you like. From its article you seem to be correct about it being MSF.PopSci (talk) 21:38, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Done. I'm not so sure about Andromeda (and about Ender's Game)... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:13, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know much about Andromeda, but Ender and his friends were certainly in the military. On his blog the author brags about how cadets in the military academies talk about his books.  But then he brags about a lot of things....Just kidding....Very important guy and books. PopSci (talk) 00:53, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Important, yes. But of the original series, only the very first, Ender's Game, takes place (largely) in what in effect is a military academy - and it's very different in feel from typical military SF. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:09, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Hmmm...I have only read "Ender's Game" and "Ender's Shadow" out of the series.  Go ahead and take them out if you feel they are not MSF.PopSci (talk) 15:07, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Stargate Atlantis is not MSF according to the definitions used by this article. Atlantis is expressly under civilian command almost all of the time. That is a major plot point, as to who gets to make decisions regarding the fate of Atlantis, and what the chain of command is. The story is not told from the point of view of a soldier or mostly soldiers. The important soldier, Maj. / Col. Sheppard, is but one functionary in the city, handling the military stuff. The Athosian and the Satedan are not military, they're paramilitary. They kick butt for Atlantis as part of Sheppard's team. Traditional military values are in no way emphasized whatsoever in the show. Clashes over leadership style and chain of command are a common plot point in multiple episodes. Just because SGA is in the Stargate franchise, doesn't make it a MSF show. Ergo, I am removing it as an example. Bvanevery (talk) 02:02, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

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