Talk:Milla Jovovich/Archive 1

Picture
At http://antibeat.host.sk/milla/index.php?disp=art there is one more PD drawing of Milla (in three variants), so if someone thinks it should be used/uploaded, go ahead! Nikola 20:01, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is not a professional drawing and should be removed. --Koyna 14:05, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know is it professional or not, and I don't see why is that important. It accurately depicts her, and is under a free licence, which could not be said for current image. But I have no intention of battling about this, if someone sues Wikipedia about this it's on users who uploaded and inserted current image. Nikola 05:15, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

New Picture
The current picture of her is AWFUL! She looks ugly as sin in it. We really need a new picture of her, since this one makes her look disgusting when she's actually really hot. DurotarLord 17:29, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure
that Jovovic speaks Serbian. --VKokielov 07:37, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Article at http://www.suc.org/culture/library/svi_srbi_sveta/tekstovi/sad_holivud_je_srpsko_selo.htm states that "she never learned Serbian well". So, she does speak it, if not well. Nikola 10:51, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


 * but currently the article states that she speaks Serbain "fluently". Did she follow courses in the mean time? :) Mipmip 12:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Last Name
I can't read those symbols explaining how to pronounce her name. According to the Resident Evil DVD Commentary, it sounds like "Yovovich." Is that what this article says? --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 06:07, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. Nikola 13:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * That is correct. You could always look up the pronunciation online. However her first name has a single ell. So is this a mistake, has she explicitly changed her name, or is this just a typical Wiki cockup?

Age
The image captioned "modelling at age 28" is definitely mislabelled. If her correct year of birth is indeed 1975, she would have been 28 in 2003. However, I have that exact image on a CD I burned in 1998. Either she was <= 23 years old at the time, or she was born earlier.--Shinyplasticbag 06:17, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, this is my fault, I had hurriedly derived her age from a few assumptions about her previous modelling. I'm currently looking up the age right now. Antidote 22:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I fixed it. She was 23. You got it on the dot. Antidote 23:54, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Ethnic spelling of her name
Jovovich was born in Ukraine. The alternate spelling of her name should therefore be in Ukrainian, not Russian. 23skidoo 18:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Early CD?
Someone added a statement that Milla released a CD before she made her first movie in 1988 (which means she must have been, like 12 at the time). Although this isn't impossible, I can find no reference to Milla ever having released a CD before "The Divine Comedy" in 1994 and that includes official websites. Can anyone provide a source for this information? Perhaps it was a demo she recorded? If that's the case, it should be stated as such, not a CD release. 23skidoo 04:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * As a follow-up, I did find a magazine reference in my own archives taken from an interview Milla gave before she appeared in Blue Lagoon in which she mentioned that she was working on "Kate Bush"-style songs, but again no reference to any actual release. 23skidoo 20:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Chronological listing
Please see Katie Holmes, today's featured articles, which lists from latest to earliest films chronologically. JackO&#39;Lantern 15:09, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Er, can anyone explain what this has to do with Milla Jovovich? (puzzled) 23skidoo 16:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the user is trying to use the example of how Katie Holmes's article is laid out to justify keeping the film chronology the way he edited it. Tyhopho 17:29, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * You got it. JackO&#39;Lantern 17:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, fair enough. This wasn't explained which is probably why the previous editor deleted the comment initially. 23skidoo 17:57, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

New Films
In this artilce it says Milla is going to be in a film called "The Winter Queen". I've researched it and cant seem to find anything else about it. Does anyone know any more information? Or about a film she was supposed to be in called "Welcome to America"? -Lindsey8417 04:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I can't find anything on Winter Queen other than this article, either. Her comments re:hanging up her action spurs don't jive with the fact she's signed to do 2 more Resident Evil sequels. As for Welcome to America it has an IMDb listing here but she isn't listed in the cast. However it is not unusual for the IMDb to leave off major cast members for films in production. A quick Google revealed a number of (reputable source) hits linking her with the production, however. 23skidoo 04:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Supermodel?
I just noticed that Milla is described as being a "supermodel". Although she obviously has some popularity as a model, including as a child model prior to her rise to stardom, I don't really agree that she ever sat in the same category as Cindy Crawford, Cheryl Tiegs, Christie Brinkley, etc. in terms of supermodel status. Is there anything to back up that she actually attained supermodel status, or do you think it might be more accurate to scale that back to describing her as a fashion model? 23skidoo 04:18, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, the fact that Forbes reported that she was the highest paid supermodel in 2004 does make her a supermodel. She, at the time, made $10.5 million a year. Beating out Gisele Bundchen with ten million, Heidi Klum who makes about eight million dollars, Caroline Murphy with five million dollars, and Tyra Banks with four million dollars a year. -Lindsey8417 06:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Interesting. That's the first source where I've actually heard her referred to as a "supermodel" per se. I wonder if the Forbes figure is strictly based upon her modelling income, or if it also takes into account the fact she is a popular and highly paid movie actress (which is something none of the others listed above are, though Tyra does rake in some extra coin for hosting Top Model). Forbes, however, isn't a modelling journal, so it's use of the term could be open for debate. Is there any modelling profession-related literature out there that actually defines her as a supermodel? 23skidoo 14:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * She is a highly successful supermodel. I am shocked to visit this article and see that it says very little about her huge modeling career. Lil Flip246 18:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that it is agreed that she is a supermodel, so is it Vandalism for someone to change this to model in the main article?  Doktor  Wilhelm   13:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Magazine Covers
A few weeks ago I had posted the cover of Vogue Spain (with Milla on the cover) on the article and it was removed. I understand the reason, but I'm not sure why the Vogue cover was removed and the Lei cover wasnt. Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but can someone explain? -Lindsey8417 18:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Is She Two-Timing?
Not tht the Wiki is about gossip (much), but the following may be giving an incorrect impression: "She has been appearing in public lately with Japanese soccer-star Nakata Hidetoshi and now she's engaged to writer/director Paul W. S. Anderson."

Is there a Milla-watcher with a more precise view? Bustter 20:35, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The articles really confusing when talking about her relationships. In the begining of the article it says "Jovovich has been described by Paul W.S. Anderson, director of her film Resident Evil and Jovovich's husband" and later it says that she's just engaged. So...?? Which one? And when did she get back together with him in the first place? Unless they never split up.... -Lindsey8417 18:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Modeling
This article says very little about Milla's modeling career. Can you guys please add more about that?? Thanks. Lil Flip246 15:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

her father
I have provided references to support that Milla Jovovich's father was Serbian, and that she speaks Serbian. Please do not remove them. I have also tried to verify claims by an anonymous user that her father was Montenegrin, but I have not been able to find anything. If someone can provide a better source, I will not touch the article, but you must understand that Wikipedia is not a place for original research. We must take care as this is a biography article, and sweeping changes must be verifiable. // Lowg .talk. 15:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you have provided no such thing. You've offered a reference to a biography badly written by a (obviously misinformed) user of IMDB, not even the official data of IMDB itself. That is hardly a reputable and acceptable source for an encyclopaedia. She DOES NOT speak Serbian, nor even Montenegrin, as she clearly stated on numerous occassions. If you cannot "find anything", try at least reading this very article, the article you keep contradicting, blissfully unaware of the contradiction. The only way you can claim Mila is Serbian is to claim all Montenegrins are Serbs, which I have reason to believe you are actually implying and which is clearly POV. Indeed, Wikipedia is not a place for original research and changes MUST be verifiable by something better than a short article tantamount to a celebrities forum. READ the article again:

"Her paternal family is Montenegrin, their estate being at Metohija in Zlopek near Peć. Her paternal great-grandfather, Bogić Camić Jovović, was flag-bearer of the Vasojevići clan and officer of the guard of the King Nicholas I of Montenegro; his wife's name was also Milica" etc.

This clearly contradicts the idea she's Serbian. If you're puzzled by Peć, know then that there was (and hopefully still is), a large Montenegrin minority in Metohija, as it was a part of Kingdom of Montenegro prior to WWI. It became a part of Serbia (Kosovo and Metohija autonomous province) only after WWII. The word "origin" means exactly that, not the place of birth - therefore her father may be a Serbian-born Montenegrin, just as she is Ukrainian-born Montenegrin (or, rather, american of MN origins).

I'm offering this, but the fact she's Montenegrin is so abundantly mentioned, one only needs to google around. Since you speak the language, here's an article in Montenegrin:

I do realize there was a lot of hype in the serbian media about her being Serbia, but they routinely claim ALL notable Montenegrins as Serbs (eg. Karl Malden, Danilo Kis, even Petar I Petrovic Njegos...), but, as you can see, it is untrue. Furthermore, there was nothing "weasely" in the statement erased earlier on, it simply stated a fact that is persistantly supported throughout the article. Articles MUST be consistent, and MUST NOT contradict themselves.
 * Listen, if you actually check my userpage you will see I was born in and live in NYC, and if you check my WP:Babel you will my understanding of the language and please note that I am trying to teach myself right now. I'm also getting a little agitated that many editors are using non-english sources on the English wikipedia and am going to start calling it out now.  I'm going to have to ask for an editor to please translate this so other editors who do speak the language a greater fluencey can translate later, or provide an alternate English language reference.  Please see  WP:RS. Also, please do not remove my cited source of IMDB and replace with weasly words and also remove the spoken languages backed up by citation from (TV.com).  Please please try to understand Verifiability.  ..  .. Regards  // Lowg  .talk. 03:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Look, I've checked your user page before I've decided to edit the article, but I gave you that source because your page says you have some command of the language (Bosnian/Croatian/Montenegrin/Serbian). Now you're saying you don't, so make up your mind. Non-english sources are perfectly acceptable, if reputable english language sources on a topic are unavailable. Besides, all original sources about MIlla's origins must come from fmr Yugoslavia or Milla herself. If you were more familiar with the language, you'd know "Jovović" is a Montenegrin name, as "Jovo" ("Johnny") is a MN deminutive of "Jovan" ("John"), while a Serbian deminutive would be "Jova". Therefore, "Jovovich" is, roughly, "Johnson". But I won't insist on that. Translated, the text (see the link above for original) reads:

"Milla Jovovich, Exotic beauty The 30-year old Milla Jovovich, model, actress and singer of Montenegrin origin used to be known for a long time as the new Brook Shields in Hollywood, as she resembled the then teenage star. Journalists gave her the pet-name "Baby Dollar", as she earned her first million by the age of eleven. Her father, Bogić Jovović is a Montenegrin peditrician, and her mother is russian actress Galina Longin"

Please, read weasly words again and try to understand the rules of Wikipedia better, as you are clearly misinterpreting them. The sentece you're referening to DOES NOT conform to "weasly words".

MAIN ISSUE: You are persistantly ignoring the main point here and I will edit the article untill you offer an acceptable counter-argument, or see your mistake: ARTICLES MUST NOT CONTRADICT THEMSELVES. This article, the way it is now, actually starts by saying: "Person A is x" ("Milla Jovovich, is a Ukrainian-born American supermodel of Serbian origin"), and continues by saying: "Person A is y" ("Her paternal family is Montenegrin, their estate being at Metohija in Zlopek near Peć. Her paternal great-grandfather, Bogić Camić Jovović, was flag-bearer of the Vasojevići clan and officer of the guard of the King Nicholas I of Montenegro"), where x cannot equal y. Your version is saying two different things, surely you see that. The fact "y" is supported by more facts and references in the article itself should clue you in. You CANNOT have it both ways and you cannot have two clearly contradictory statements in the same article, it will only confuse the reader. Milla's origins are hardly a matter worth much discussion, but if you'd know the way Serbs routinely hijack all noted or important persons of Montenegrin history or life, you'd know where this kind of irritation comes from - and I for one, am irritated. There are people out there who would find your edits upsetting, or even offensive, not because of Milla, but because the only reason Serbian sources are spreading this version is because they claim our entire nation is a part of their greater Serbian nation and Greater Serbia. It's VERY offensive and dangerous in the Balkans, as you may imagine. People are very sensitive about their identity, surely you understand that. It's like changing articles about american personalities and adding that they are all "of english origin". Now that would be ridiculous. By the way, I cannot agree this article is well researched or well written at all. Do you honestly believe the part of her being "the queen of kick-butt" or "actress who could kick ass" deserves to be included into an encyclopaedia article? It's downright VULGAR in my book, but I will note delete them for now. However, the contradicition will be edited and I'm sure you'll realize the mistake you're making. Please stop the edit-war, now. Warm regards
 * Listen, to be totally frank, I'm trying to be patient with you since you obviously do not understand the Wikipedia policies, if you can provide a source no one will remove your changes. Let me just give the most important of many links I have provided you for this situation:
 * WP:V - The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research.
 * Please do not continue the disruptive behavior, and perhaps instead put that energy into finding good sources we can use for this article. // Lowg  .talk. 20:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I, for one, am not blessed with so much patience. Especially, as you are persistantly ignoring the MAIN ISSUE (see above). Until you confront the argument given, noone will really take your edits seriously - answer that or stop vandalizing the article. I understand Wikipedia rules perfectly, and in my view, it is YOU who are misinterpreting and breaching them. Please read WP:POV. I've found more sources that claim she's Montenegrin, just as THIS VERY ARTICLE CLAIMS WITH THE EXCEPTION OF YOUR EDITS IN THE PREFACE, and gave an example already. There are also many sources that say she's Serbian, mostly disreputable ones, see political reasons I explained above. Please read the article on verifiability again and note the word reputable, not just ANY sources, like internet forums etc.

Please read this article from Vogue Australia (this time in english, I apologize for the link in Montenegrin before, your page mislead me, and probably others as well, into believing you understand the language): Please note what this article says:"Jovovich was born in 1975, in Kiev, Ukraine, the only child of a Russian performer, Galina Loginova ("she was an amazing actress"), and a Montenegrin father, Bogich Jovovich. ("They're men's men in Montenegro, very macho, especially up north where my Dad and all his brothers and cousins are from.")". Also, from here: : "I mean, I'm a strong, big girl. My dad's from Yugoslavia, from Montenegro. I have big bones, big shoulders." So, Milla says her father is Montenegrin, but I guess you know better... As you've probably noticed, both of those articles from Vogue are on Milla's OFFICIAL website, MillaJ.com. And if Vogue is not your cup of tea, here's London Times:. Scroll all the way down, where it briefly says: "Milla Jovovich, the star of Resident Evil and Zoolander is Montenegrin in origin, although she was born in Kiev".

Simple Google search gave 23.700 results for "Milla Jovovich Montenegrin", but how much do you need, exactly? On the other hand, you said: "I have also tried to verify claims by an anonymous user that her father was Montenegrin, but I have not been able to find anything." (see your first answer). Well, next time try harder before deleting someone's well-founded edits, especially if that person turns your attention to logical mistakes within the text.

Time and again I'm trying to explain: your version gives TWO opposing views, and this is below the standard of Wikipedia, or ANY OTHER encyclopaedia. Articles MUST be self-consistant. It is possible to compromize, to say there are some who claim she's Serbian, but you keep deleting that sentence (which was not originally mine), misinterpreting it as a weasely statement, which it is not. On the contrary, what it does is that it acknowledges other views are out there, but do not conform with the facts given and verified. Please, please, please, READ the COMPLETE article carefully and then read what I said previously on this page and check your sources again. It's very hard for me to see how you persistantly fail to understand this simple contradiction. Address that problem or STOP this edit-war. If you persist, the least we can do is to put a disputed tag on this article, but I'm trying to reason with you here. Please read WP:POV carefully and compare with your actions here. User Gdo01 had a similar idea like you, but checked and had to say: "rv oops nationality was correct" (see article history). You, on the other hand, are persistant in your errors. And stop taking it so personally, I'm sure we all want a decent article - which this is certainly NOT, see what I said about the "kick ass" sentence. Or, at least, it's not YET. A word of advice: ALWAYS spot inconsistent articles, spot contradictions in terms and then RESEARCH more carefully, or you will end up with rubbish. WOW, I guess I didn't lose patience with you after all. Amazing. No hard feelings? Of course, your changes will be edited. Warm regards from Montenegro

Lowg, are you doing this to upset people, or what? You simply reverted the article again, you didn't even dignify overwhelming arguments and sources above with a single sentence in response. I always respect Wikipedia rules, and will assume good faith, but it's hard not to get a bit irritated by this unacceptable, destructive behaviour. Stop destroying the work of others, what good does it do? You can contribute to this article in other ways, surely! And PLEASE, stop changing the place of birth!!!!!!!!! The city of Kiev is the capital city of Ukraine, it is not in Russia. Therefore, Milla is Ukrainian-born, NOT Russian-born! After all this, I will insist on an apology. Stubborness will get you nowhere and I can't imagine where are you going with this. If I give up, there will always be someone else watching the article. You can't just ignore better arguments, reliable sources (in contrast to irrelevant ones you offered) and citations and push for your own version of reality. See Wikipedia policy on original research. You can't just keep reverting ad nauseam.

Just a short explanation for other editors not understanding this discussion: Milla's father is Serb, and so Milla has Serbian origin. Of course, Milla's father has Montenegrin origin and so Milla has Montenegrin origin. How could that be? Prior to 1945, all Montenegrins considered themselves Serbs and it was just a regional designation like Belgradians is today; see Montenegrins for more detail. So, Milla's grandfather, being born before 1945 considered himself Serb, and Milla's father also feels as Serb personally, or so could be concluded from interviews with him. Nikola 19:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Nikola just gave us a good example of the way Serbian political (some would say chauvinist) agenda is being pushed forward with small steps like persistent and routine hijacking of notable Montenegrins and, consequently, our entire nation in general. Thank you for making my point and clarifying the only reason there are disreputable sources out there claiming she's Serbian is to support Serbian nationalist agenda (primarily, Greater Serbia project). Please understand Wikipedia is not a place for political activism. The status of Montenegrin nation, historically and politically, is disputed only among Serbs (i.e. people who live in Serbia), but most Montenegrins never accepted such attempts of assimilation and aggression, which can be seen by the result of the recent referendum and the subsequent independence of Montenegro. Montenegrins were forced to self-declare as Serbs from 1918-1945, after forceable annexation and the end of WWI and especially after Christmas Uprising, crushed in blood by the Serbian occupying forces. Again, see [], for example. After WWII, they were free to say who they always were. Same goes for Milla's ancestors, of course. One excludes the other - one cannot be BOTH Montenegrin and Serbian, although there are mixed marriages, for sure, just as one cannot be of BOTH Hungarian and Mongolian origins, as origins are determined by paternal lineage. It was always a national, never a regional designation. Please do not vandalise the article and erase well-sourced and verified data. Milla herself says she's of Montenegrin origin, see links above. Also, stop deleting the name of the language. There is no more reason for her name to be in Serbian, then, say, Croatian, or Bosnian. I have nothing against having her name in Serbian, but we cannot just add every living language of Europe. Montenegrin language is there because she's Montenegrin, Ukrainian because she was born in Ukraine, obviously. I STRONGLY BELIEVE this article should be PROTECTED from further edits, at least for a while. They are tantamount to vandalism, see Wikipedia policy on that. Also, please read WP:POV and try to understand Wikipedia is not a place for furthering a personal political agenda, it is certainly NOT an internet forum. Your changes will be reverted. Have a good one.

Good article removal
I stumbled across this article from Recent changes. I see there seems to be an on-going edit war regarding her father's nationality. I removed the article from the good article list because one of the good article criteria is stability; good articles should not be the subject of an edit war. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 20:40, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Milla's grandfather, born before 1945 considered himself Serb.--Medule 20:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Medule, PLEASE STOP reverting the article and cease this endless edit war. Stop deleting verified information (see above). We cannot all just keep repeating ourselves and explain to you why - read the discussion above. If her grandfather was born prior to 1945, he certainly knew he wasn't a Serb, as Montenegrins have never been Serbs at all, except when it was used as determination of religion (greek orthodoxy used to be known once as "serbian faith", roman catholicism as "latin faith", islam as "turkish faith" etc.). He surely knew his nation was forced to self-declare in such a way during the 1918-1945 serbian occupation of Montenegro and subsequent Karadjordjevic dictatorship (see Kingdom of Yugoslavia). Anyway, her origins are well documented here by reliable sources (London Times, Vogue and Milla's official website [www.MillaJ.com] - see above). Please stop reverting the article. Read Wikipedia policy on Vandalism, POV and Original Research. Regards.
 * With all due respect your comment would carry more weight if they were signed so we know who is speaking. (I'm not a part of the nationality argument). 23skidoo 21:17, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Even today northern parts of montenegro, where her father belongs are Serbs. You could see latest distribution of nation in Montenegro. So called Vasojevici tribe always belong to Serb. Milosevic is from Vasojevici tribe, and everybody call him Serb, not Montenegriner.--Medule 21:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

23skidoo, thanks for the suggestion, but considering the way this data was so well verified by me and others, does that really matter? Scroll up and read the entire discussion about her father and her origins, please. Don't forget to check the links I gave. I ask you: What is more important, well-founded and verified facts, or the fact I can't be bothered to register, which would take me a few seconds, anyway? Maybe I will, maybe I won't, that is beside the point. Although, if most wikipedians are like these people who revert ad nauseam, I'm not sure I will. The point is this persistent edit-war and destructive behaviour by some users. If Wikipedia would accept their form of article, contrary to the view the person in question obviously holds, it would flagrantly breach the NPOV policy, as well as policy on original research and take one side in a bitter and complicated political debate that cost my compatriots many lives in the past. It would imply Montenegrin nation doesn't exist and that all Montenegrins are simply Serbs (next stage would be claiming most of surrounding nations as Serbs, as it happened in the past - Macedonians, Bosniaks and even some Croats), even now, after the liberation of Montenegro and declaration of independence in June this year (see Montenegro). I'm putting before you this proposal: that this article should be reverted back to verified information about her origin, language info etc. (which I am about to do anyway, as I'm not prepared to let this one go) and that this article should be protected from further editing for a limited period of time, in order for those politically indoctrinated heads to cool off. My concern here is making this a good, consistent, well-verified article, supported by reputable sources (can't get more reputable than HER OWN site, London Times, Vogue etc.). Their concern is to misuse Wikipedia to further a nationalist agenda. You choose. And sorry if I forget all the social graces, this edit war and the sheer volume of nonsense get to me. Especially if there is a SERPENTINE intention to deny my own identity and the identity of my people as a whole, not just Milla's identity alone. Please tell me what do you think about the suggestion and if it is possible to act on it.

Medule, a) what you said is completely untrue, as a Montenegrin I know that very well. Many Serbian refugees came to Montenegro and changed ethnic composition in some parts of the country - in 1991 there were only 9% of Serbs in the republic (see demographics, although most of that article is unreliable, especially the earlier census) b) Vasojevici clan is from Montenegro, Serbs don't even have clans, as it is a social structure typical for highlander societies (Scotland, Montenegro etc.). Serbs are people who live or originate from Serbia (well, duh!). c) Milosevic self-declared as Serbian in order to facilitate his access to political power in Serbia proper. His father and brother declared as Montenegrins. d) "Montenegriner" is German, please use better English if you wish to contribute to English wikipedia. e) STOP DELETING verified information, that is the main point, plus stop contradicting the rest of the article, plus stop destroying other people's work! PLEASE read the ENTIRE argument above and stop using Wikipedia as a platform for YOUR political agenda! Stop ignoring the most reliable sources available on this matter. There are plenty of internet forums out there if you need to let out a bit of steam! And STOP using unreliable sources, such as a text that translates as "Hollywood is a Serbian village" ("Holivud je srpsko selo"), by the extremist organisation Serbian Unity Congress. You used it to support the claim she speaks Serbian language. Btw, why Serbian? If she's Montenegrin, as she says she is, she surely speaks Montenegrin language, how ever disputed its status might be by chauvinist circles in Serbia. I respect your political views, what ever they are, but you can't edit other people's biographies telling them who they are and who they are not. Furthermore, you keep misunderstanding the English word "origins". Look it up. Everything I've said previously in this discussion ("her father"), applies to you too 100%. Regards.


 * outside comment. I came here through RfC. I can't have an informed opinion about the subject itself. It seems very unclear to me. However, I'd like to note that whether a user is registered or not should not be a factor in determining who's right and who's wrong. --Atavi 13:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * another outside comment. I also came here via RfC.  To me it seems like there is no effort being made to find a compromise.  All sides seem to have some factual basis for their assertions, so what is the basis for the refusal to find some common ground?  She apparently is of Montenegrin and Serb descent.  What's wrong with saying that?  Seriously, I don't understand.  Is there some kind of ethnic or religious pride or feud involving her origins?
 * On a different note, I DO have a problem with editors who don't register and sign their comments. Assuming the editor is familiar with the WP community, lack of registration tells me that the editor does not respect the WP philosophy or the WP community.  I have to look in the edit history to see that certain comments were originated by an IP in Serbia, so it is probably the same person who made similar comments from the same ISP in Serbia.  But there is absolutely no assurance of that, unlike a registered user, who had to at least use a password to verify there userID.  If they don't respect the community, could their goals be complimentary to the goals of the WP mission?  Maybe they are, and maybe they aren't.  But it raises the question and when they also intentionally refuse to sign their comments, I'm forced to look at the history log every time that anonymous editor says something like, "see my earlier comments", or I jsut want to try follow the flow of the conversation.  --JJLatWiki 15:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I think this article needs arbitration of some sort
I'm starting to get annoyed at the constant edit warring, particularly from anonymous users. I strongly recommend that this article be sent to WP:RFC otherwise I see no end to this. Actually, I am going to add it to the RFC list right now. Let's get some third parties involved. 23skidoo 12:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

RfC
Please summarize the issues in a neutral manner for visitors. Durova 15:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The issue here is that some editors want to confuse otherwise simple issue. The anon is abusing the fallacy of equivocation. When he says that she is of Montenegrin origin, it could mean either:


 * from Montenegro
 * of Montenegrins


 * The first meaning is true, but the second isn't. The anon gave a couple of references which say that she is of Montenegrin origin; this tells us nothing, as it could refer to either of the meanings. While her family is undoubtedly from Montenegro, it is of Serb origin, as could be gathered from following facts:


 * The 1909 census, undertaken by the Principality of Montenegro, recorded that 95% of the population identified themselves as Serbs and other mostly as Albanians; this would include Milla's great-grandfather.
 * Milla's family belongs to the Vasojevici tribe, and that is undisputed. The tribe is centered on the city of Bijelo Polje which, according to the last census, has 40.32% of Serbs and 17.77% of Montenegrins.
 * In the interview used as an article reference, Milla's father literally says: "Američka agresija na mene počela je deceniju ranije nego n ostale Srbe", which means "American agression on me started a decade earlier than on other Serbs".


 * It is thus obvious that Milla's family is Serb family from montenegro. Stating that she has Serb origin or Montenegrin Serb origin is fine, but Montenegrin origin is wrong. Nikola 21:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for asking this as I'm sure you have done it before, but can you give some sources for what you are saying? Thanks. From what I have seen already the evidence indicates that she is, in fact, of Serb extraction.UberCryxic 02:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, if the above summary is correct, then she is an ethnic Serb from Montenegro. Durova 02:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

What we're dealing with here is a bad case of intellectual dishonesty. If we would allow Milla to be unilaterally proclaimed to be Serbian, against her obvious wishes given in referenced material, Wikipedia would be in great danger of becoming a media outlet for political POV and aggressive nationalism. The matter seems trivial, but it is really not, and I agree with most explanations given by anonymous users in this Talk page. Indeed, if we would let this one pass, we would have to change origins of ALL people of Montenegrin descent from Montenegrin to Serbian. That means changing articles on ALL Montenegrins or people of MN origin, even now that MN has regained independence from Serbia. Even those who have never been to Serbia, never had anything to do with the country, never thought of themselves as Serbian at all. Do we REALLY want to do this, contrary to both the truth and verifiable information? There were almost no ethnic Serbs in Montenegro prior to 1918, and the confusion begins with the use of the word "Serb", which had religious connotations in the XVIII and XIX c. Petar I Petrovic Njegos calls the Russian czar a Serb, for example, which simply meant "greek orthodox christian". Of course, there are some Serbs in Montenegro today, mostly because of fear and media indoctrination during the rule of Slobodan Milosevic. Please remember Wikipedia is not a place for original research, and claims that Milla here is Serbian must come from reliable sources, and preferably in english. If her official site, London Times and Vogue claim she's Montenegrin and of Montenegrin origin, I can see no justification in deleting that information. Milla has the right to consider herself to be Montenegrin, as she does. Montenegrin origins, means Montenegrin, from Montenegro. Serbian editors are abusing logical fallacy and deliberately complicate a rather simple issue. Do not confuse the meaning of the word "origins" in english with a slightly different meaning in bosnian / croatian / montenegrin / serbian. I also agree that the way notable people from Montenegro are treated in Wikipedia and, indeed, automatically hijacked by some (but not all) Serbian editors is deplorable. This sort of abuse must finally stop.

Since SHE says she's of Montenegrin origin, as she does, Wikipedia should present that information. Nikola seems to be unaware of WP:POV or fails to comprehend the way his edits conflict with Wikipedia policy.The anon gave not just "a couple of references", but official and indisputable references in english, in contrast to some really unreliable ones, in Serbian. It is true, Serbian media, especially unreliable articles from popular or tabloid press we are offered here, routinely consider all Montenegrins, some Bosnians and Croats and some Macedonians as Serbs, as long as they are well-known and popular. But why should we do the same is beyond me. Simply, Milla's official site (millaj.com), London Times and Vogue offer superior reliability and we should accept them. Also, I agree that articles given in support of the idea she's Serbian are borderline humorous and I don't know if they were even written as serious articles or not: "Mila peva zanimljive pesme" ("Milla sings interesting songs") and especially, "Holivud je srpsko selo" ("Hollywood is a Serbian village"), offered to us here as references. I expect some serbian editors to change the article on Hollywood to "...is a serbian village in California", backing it with this same reference. Nikola says "The anon gave a couple of references which say that she is of Montenegrin origin; this tells us nothing". On the contrary, it tells as EVERYTHING, as these most reliable sources literally say she's of Montenegrin origin, full stop. Furthermore:


 * "The 1909 census is disputed, as it is unclear whether it recorded ethnic or religious composition of the principality. Even if what you say is true, which it is not, this would mean we would have to change origins of ALL contemporary Montenegrins, erase any mention of them as Montenegrins and claim they're all Serbian, even if it is against their wishes. Personally, I for one would be very offended by that. And it would be as POV as hell...
 * First of all, there are no "tribes" in Montenegro, but clans, it is not the right translation of montenegrin "pleme". Serbs have no clans what-so-ever, not even one of them is in Serbia. It is simply a social structure that Serbs never had. Nikola says: "The tribe is centred on the city of Bijelo Polje which, according to the last census, has 40.32% of Serbs and 17.77% of Montenegrins". True, in the LAST census, after the influx of Serbian refugees from Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo changed the ethnic composition. See the previous census, 1991, when entire Montenegro had around 9% of Serbs. Anyway, how can you tell Milla wouldn't be in the 17.77%? Again, it's POV and speculation in contrast to official data given in the references.
 * Nikola also says: "In the interview used as an article reference, Milla's father literally says: "Američka agresija na mene počela je deceniju ranije nego n ostale Srbe", which means "American aggression on me started a decade earlier than on other Serbs".

What interview and how reliable? Also, I would dispute your translation - it could also mean "...than on Serbs", although it is a very stupid thing to say and I doubt he ever did... Please use references from english sources, reliable ones. See WP:V for more. These sources, as well as all Montenegrin sources I could find, say she's Montenegrin. I couldn't find that she ever even visited Serbia and I doubt she ever did.

Wikipedia is not to become a media outlet for chauvinism, nationalism, personal political agenda. It is there to offer reliable, well-founded, verifiable information. And that info says she's Montenegrin and that her native country is Montenegro. In the end, it all comes down to sources of superior reliability. The evidence is there that she's Montenegrin, there's nothing to indicate she's serbian. Please stop confusing the readers, contradicting the article, vandalising the article and making a very simple issue a complex and disputed one.--HercegOX 14:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, if there are valid sources for both positions then create a section (not too long) and present cited arguments for both. Durova 17:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Durova, that's just it: there are NO valid sources to support the claim she's serbian. What sources could possibly be more valid, reliable or superior to Milla's official site, London Times and Vogue the unreg referenced in the article, and they all claim she's montenegrin! Here's what he said previously, if you didn't read the whole lenghty discussion:

" Please note what this article says:"Jovovich was born in 1975, in Kiev, Ukraine, the only child of a Russian performer, Galina Loginova ("she was an amazing actress"), and a Montenegrin father, Bogich Jovovich. ("They're men's men in Montenegro, very macho, especially up north where my Dad and all his brothers and cousins are from.")". Also, from here: : "I mean, I'm a strong, big girl. My dad's from Yugoslavia, from Montenegro. I have big bones, big shoulders." So, Milla says her father is Montenegrin, but I guess you know better..." . London Times:. Scroll all the way down, where it briefly says: "Milla Jovovich, the star of Resident Evil and Zoolander is Montenegrin in origin, although she was born in Kiev".

I have very little to add here. Wiki is about verification, and this is the best information available and verifiable. Anything that contradicts this would be POV. There are also claims she's croatian, equal to the claim she's serbian, and both of those were mentioned in the article. But, my concern is something else: there is a tendency to change ALL wikipedia articles on ALL Montenegrins and claim ALL of them as Serbs. These attempts of virtual assimilation are most disturbing. Serbs simply consider Montenegro to be a part of Greater Serbia and will push their political agenda, regardless of facts or verified information or personal wishes of people in question, as here is obviously the case. Of course, Montenegro is a small nation and it's easy to bring down a deluge of edits, vandalism and edit wars, as there cannot be all that many montenegrin wikipedians. That's why I think it's very important not to allow this rubbish to pass. If we disregard most reliable sources like Times or her official website in behalf of "Hollywood is a serbian village" article, what's next? Or, rather, who's next? The article is now on my watchlist and I certainly won't forget about it. --HercegOX 21:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Milla's website claims that her family is from Montenegro. That is undisputed. What you claim to dispute is nationality of that family. You have not presented any clue to that. The interview with her father is reference #1, at http://arhiva.glas-javnosti.co.yu/arhiva/2000/07/18/srpski/F00071702.shtm . Your claims about 1909 census, refugees changing ethnic structure, my wrong translation etc. are very funny. Nicholas I of Montenegro himself said that his soul will rest when Serb is no longer a slave -- you are just prolonging his suffering ;) Nikola 21:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of what she thinks of herself, I want to know if there is a definitive answer to this question: is she ethnically Montenegrin or Serbian? Again, ignore for one second what she likes to identify herself and tell me about that question. Then we can proceed from there. In your reply please lay out the sources one by one. If no reliable source can be given to establish what her ethnicity is, then you need to mention this in the article somehow, without calling her a Serb or a Montenegrin categorically. Thank you.UberCryxic 21:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Something else: the article mentions that her mother is a Russian actress. Would that not make her, ethnically speaking, partly Russian as well? Why are people so caught up in this struggle when she was born in Ukraine and her mother was from Russia? Well, perhaps that's a bad question. What I'm trying to say is that something should be mentioned about her Russian origin as well.UberCryxic 21:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * One of the editors here quoted an interview with her father where he characterizes himself as Serbian. If that's properly sourced that seems good enough to include in the article.  And I suppose if ethnic heritage is of interest, her mother's might as well be mentioned too.  (Thank heaven Wikipedia doesn't have an article about me because I've got at least eight different ethnicities). Durova 01:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

If it's in any way related to the Balkans, chances are ethnic heritage is of definite interest!UberCryxic 04:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

On second thought, I'm becoming more and and more convinced that the label "Montenegrin origin" is more appropriate, though I'm not sure if entirely correct. I would still like, however, to see some mention of her Russian side. We all know it takes two to tango, and her origin can't just be where her father came from, as this article implies. That's just silly and parochial. This needs to be changed soon or I will add the information there myself.UberCryxic 15:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I added Russian origin to the article. Nikola 18:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

How about just saying she is of "Eastern European" origin? That would eliminate the whole debate. Russia, Ukraine, Serbia, Croatia, and Montenegro are all in Eastern Europe. She is definately of mixed heritage, and "Eastern European" is a perfectly acceptable way of saying that. As an example, I say I am an American citizen of Northern European background. This is because I have ancestors who came to the US (or English colonies) from England, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, and France. She has ancestors who came from many countries in Eastern Europe, so why not just say she's Eastern European? ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 15:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not precise enough. Nikola 18:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I should also note that one way to break everyone's hearts and still solve the problem efficiently would be to just say "Ukranian-born American supermodel" without reference to her origins at all.UberCryxic 04:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Ethnicity in header
I'm not getting into this discussion, but please do not restore mentions of her ethnic background into the header (first paragraph) of the article, as per Manual of Style (biographies). We could remove "Ukrainian-born", too, but since it was sort of her nationality (nationality goes in header), I'm not sure. Mad Jack 03:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Imdb change their info rapidly and are very inconsistent with providing the right information about the stars. Therefore don't always believe that site. They also once claimed that Goran Visnjic had a wife before Ivana Vrdoljak and a son with her. Also, I agree with the aforementioned statement that Serbians tend to claim famous Montenegrins as Serbs. Also Sava Kovacevic, the WW2 hero. When I first saw the article on him here, it said that he was a Montenegrin Serb.

I am commenting on the idiot above me. I just went to her site, and her own site, says that her father is SERBIAN. Its not like somebody can go to her site and edit it. Jovovich is like 100% Serbian last name. Not montenegroan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alser (talk • contribs) 16:08, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I will just copy the discussion mentioned below: What complete rubbish. The girl SAYS she's Montenegrin, look at those a links above. And one could question if there is such a thing as "Serbs from Montenegro" at all, considering immigration from Serbia to Montenegro never took place and this is now only a political identification, an ideological protest, not an ethnic identity. In most cases, people in the same family differ in that respect, but this is a new situation that came to be with the 2003 census and the frenzy concerning the declaration of independence of Montenegro. There were only 3% of Serbs in Montenegro in 1981, and 7% in 1991...ie. before and during the period Milla's father and his kin lived there. Be that as it may, Wikipedia is about VERIFICATION and claiming her origins as Serbian and supporting it with a dubious text from a trash-tabloid titled "Hollywood is a serbian village" and "Milla sings interesting songs" (both, btw, in serbian instead of english) is POV and intellectualy dishonest. Her origins should be changed to "montenegrin-ukrainian" and serbian language in the opening passage changed to montenegrin. Grounds for this: Milla's OFFICIAL WEBSITE, London Times and Vogue (all in english) surely provide superior reliabilty and verifiability for english Wikipedia than those "Hollywood is a serbian village" and "Milla sings interesting songs" articles (both in serbian). So, to place all those relevant links in one place (both from the archived talkpage and the ones Lindsey was kind enoguh to mention above): "[3] Please note what this article says:"Jovovich was born in 1975, in Kiev, Ukraine, the only child of a Russian performer, Galina Loginova ("she was an amazing actress"), and a Montenegrin father, Bogich Jovovich. ("They're men's men in Montenegro, very macho, especially up north where my Dad and all his brothers and cousins are from.")". Also, from here: [4]: "I mean, I'm a strong, big girl. My dad's from Yugoslavia, from Montenegro. I have big bones, big shoulders." So, Milla says her father is Montenegrin, but I guess you know better..." . London Times: [5]. Scroll all the way down, where it briefly says: "Milla Jovovich, the star of Resident Evil and Zoolander is Montenegrin in origin, although she was born in Kiev". "Amongst my Montenegrin heritage, there isn't one man who hasn't been in prison. They always rebel, always against authority." [6] Her stamina, she reckons she got from her father's "Montenegrian Northern blood".[7] So, Milla herself (millaj.com is her official website), as well as Vogue (Australian edition) and the famous London Times (directly says she is "Montenegrin in origin"), one of the world's leading newspaper, are all supposed to be ignorant of her bacground. Somehow, I don't buy that. The only reason one would prefer those, rather bizarre, articles from the serbian press is actually very malintent and seen all over Wikipedia: to hijack any person from Montenegro, as long as he/she is well-known, as a part of a trollish project to represent Montenegro as rightfully a part of Greater Serbia and Montenegrins as Serbs. If we would do this with Milla, we would have to do the same with every single person from Montenegro mentioned in wikipedia, which is exactly the intention here. The fact this article was made a part of Wikiproject Serbia, considering it is undisputed she has nothing to do with Serbia proper, never been there and her origins aren't from that country...that fact speaks volumes. Wikipeda should not support such nationalist aspirations. Wikipedia is not an outlet for ethnic frustrations. There are plenty of nationalist internet forums out there where such steam can be let out. Wikipedia is about providing verifiable information. Let's keep it that way. --Perjanik (talk) 04:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Rave92 (talk) 21:07, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Milla Jovovich isn't American? She isn't Russian?
Surely Milla Jovovich is a U.S. citizen. She shouldn't be described as simply a "Serbian model, actress, etc.". And what's the justification for emphasizing her Serbian background but not her Russian background? She was raised in Ukraine (where she obviously didn't speak Serbian or Ukrainian) and has a Russian mother. She speaks Russian excellently, too. You can find numerous interviews with her in Russian on YouTube. macjacobus (talk) 09:53, 4 September 2010 (UTC)