Talk:Mills' Mess

Learning section
As suggested, the "learning" section should be replaced with a description of the trick. Now, I started to write one, but pretty soon I realized that 1) It's damn hard to describe Mills mess with words so that it makes sense to someone who doesn't know the trick already 2) There's probably gazillion descriptions of Mills mess written already on the net. With little googling, I found an example by Eric Grannan (link); someone who doesn't know Mills mess could tell if it makes any sense or not. But for clarity, I suppose it should include some sort of illustration. Maybe still pictures from a video with arrows for flight paths? --Pestis 11:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Rubenstein's Revenge
I think Rubenstein's Revenge should either be removed from this page (and probably made into it's own article) or if not, Burke's Barrage should be added. Rubenstein's Revenge is not really a variant of Mills Mess. Instead, it's a simple extension of Burke's Barrage. --Lovelace 02:07, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't even think that Burke's Barrage should be added, let alone Rubenstein's Revenge. Both of these tricks are different enough to be considered a separate trick.  The only thing they really share with Mills Mess is a crossing of the arms.  I vote to create separate articles for these tricks, and to remove them from this article. --BennyD 01:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. Moved it to Rubenstein's Revenge. Larspedia 17:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Apparently it was added back in 9 years after it was removed. Not sure what to make of that except that whoever added it back obviously didn't read the Talk page. --Lovelace (talk) 03:18, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

No apostrophe
According to the external link from this page, it should be "Mills Mess" without an apostrophe.

The logic behind this is that the creator was called Mills. However this means that the correct spelling should be Mills' mess, with the apostraphe going after the s to indicate the mess belongs to Mills.


 * I believe it's "the Mills mess", where the name is used as an adjective (like the Washington monument) rather than as a posessive noun. &#8212;Rory &#9786; 11:33, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)


 * but the washington monument is a monument to washington, not one belonging to washington, the Lincoln memorial is one of washington's monuments. Surely putting his name at the front was intended to make it a possessive, ive never met Mills, but am sure he wanted it to be his mess rather than just a word that happens to be the same as his name. Nez


 * Steve Mills himself stated that the correct name for the trick is "the Mills Mess". Like "the Newton method", or "the Clinton presidency", the name is used in adjectival form. &#8212;Rory &#9786; 14:12, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)


 * If you use 'The Newton Method', you are using Newton's method.
 * If you read about 'the Clinton presidency' you're reading about Clinton's presidency.
 * If you perform 'the mills mess' you're performing mills' mess.
 * Without a 'the' it has to be mills' mess.
 * see also Archimedes' screw Pythagoras' Theorem


 * Read the article. It begins "The Mills Mess..." That's correct. I fail to see the problem with that grammar. Consider a Dell computer. It's not "Dell's computer". In this case it's not "Mills' Mess", it's a Mills Mess, or the Mills Mess, or even my Mills Mess. That is how the term is used, that is how Mills himself used it, it's completely grammatically sound (as long as an article (the, a, my) is used). Where's the problem? &#8212;Rory &#9786; 18:02, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm a juggler (sorry I don't have an account yet). Everywhere I've seen "Mills Mess", it has always been "Mills Mess", no apostrophe.   Part of the grammatical confusion is that the added apostrophe conflicts with the 30 or so years of verbal tradition.  The historical pronunciation of "Milz Mess" then becomes "Milzes Mess" which is verbally incorrect.  If Mr. Hess owns a house, it is pronounced "Mr. Hessez house" not "Mr. Hess house".  In the history of its pronunciation, "Mills Mess" has always been pronounced as "Milz Mess".  Moreover the following are also correct in the verbal tradition.
 * I tried Mills Mess last night. (grammatically wrong, verbally right)
 * Bill, your Mills Mess looks real ugly. (grammatically and socially wrong, verbally right)
 * I taught four jugglers the Mills Mess pattern last month. (correct)
 * So yes, it should probably be in fact called "Mills' Mess", but that would break a 30+ year verbal tradition among jugglers.

I added apostrophes to all instances of "Mills Mess" since the name should indeed be spelled "Mills' Mess" or "Mills' mess", to give credit to Steve Mills. However, I do not know how to rename the article to "Mills' Mess"; whoever chooses to rename should also set up a redirect from "Mills Mess" to "Mills' Mess". To be grammatical, I can say "His Mills' Mess looks good" because: 1. "Mills' Mess" is the name of the trick, so "Mills' Mess" can be used the same way as other trick names including "Windmill" and "Reverse fountain" ; and 2. "Mills'" can be considered an adjective describing "Mess"; hence the example sentence is grammatical. However, in many cases, grammar is irrelevant because the oral pronunciation is the same, as mentioned above. Mooseandbruce1 (talk) 06:53, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

5-ball Rubenstein's Revenge?
Has anyone seen a 5-ball version of Rubinstein's Revenge? I suspect not, though this article implies that it's been done...

Eric's Extension
I'm surprised there was no mention of Eric's Extension in the list of variations. It is a well-known variation, so I added it myself. --BennyD 01:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Adding back variations
Although I agree with removing the learning section, I think the section on variations was appropriate and replaced it. If you think it should be deleted or removed I'd be more than happy to discuss options. Sbacle 03:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Title caps
Is there a reason for this article being at "Mills Mess" rather than "Mills mess"? Hyacinth (talk) 04:16, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Mills Gift
There was a line about Steve Mills asking it to be renamed “Mills Gift”.

please do not include this.

why?

A one time facebook post with minimal reach asking for renaming by the creator done in a strange tone shouldn’t be part of this page.

1. It’s irrelevant as no one is going to call it this. Most don’t pay attention to this. If they did they wouldn’t use the name. Especially when he made the request in an inappropriate manner. The reach of this facebook post was minimal.

2. His official page still reads “Steve Mills is creator of the Mills Mess”. So we can’t take it seriously.

And a post after the “Mills Gift” post (Jan 9 2023) on Jan 15th had him refer to the trick as Mills Mess in an earnest way.

Meaning it may have been a joke.

3. Steve Mills had the trick named after him even though he invented it. He didn’t create the name. Any name change would not be up to him really.

No one is going to use the Mills Gift name when referring to the trick.

24.52.221.206 (talk) 03:38, 8 June 2023 (UTC)