Talk:Millsaps College/Archive 1

"In the South"?
I went to Millsaps, and I had always heard that it was the first college in Mississippi to voluntarily desegregate (Ole Miss, of course, was first to desegregate, but that was under duress). I've never heard, though, that it was the first "in the South" to do so, as our article says. Do we have any documentation for this claim? --Tkynerd 19:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I just found a reference myself on the Millsaps Web site. I've used this for now, but I would prefer independent documentation, so if anyone has any, please come forward! :-) --Tkynerd 19:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Student Body officers?
Who cares? I've never seen student body officers listed on a Wiki college page. 68.94.221.48 04:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, although not for the reason you gave in your edit summary. The information is not encyclopedic. --Tkynerd 12:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Kappa Sigma gone?
Is this edit accurate? Has Kappa Sigma left Millsaps? --Tkynerd (talk) 03:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * According to the Kappa Sigma web site, it appears so as Millsaps isn't listed as a chapter. - &#10032; ALLSTAR &#10032; echo 04:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I looked at the Millsaps Web site, but couldn't find a convenient list of the fraternities on campus (stupid Web site, IMO), and even if I had, I had no assurance that it was necessarily up to date. Didn't even think of checking the Kappa Sigma site. Thanks again. --Tkynerd (talk) 19:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

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3O
Hi. It's kind of hard to give a third opinion on an article when there hasn't been any discussion. Balloftwine and Allstarecho, please discuss your edits here before requesting a 3O. Thanks. &mdash;  Hello Annyong  (say whaaat?!) 01:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

My issue isn't that I have a "problem" with the issue of Lucas's gender, but that many believe that it perpetuates gender stereotypes to continue talking about them. --Balloftwine (talk) 20:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not based on what people may perceive or think about any subject. We only include the facts. As part of those facts, we have to establish why someone is notable enough for inclusion. The fact that Dr Lucas is the first female president ever at a 100+ year old institution of higher learning, is part of establishing her notability. It's a notable and well sourced fact and should be included. - ℅ &#10032; ALLST☆R &#10032; echo 21:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

If you care about "facts" why don't you specify that she's the first straight-haired president of Millsaps or that she's the first that's over 5' 9"" or that she smells like cedar? Obviously the facts that you choose are subjective. I just don't like your harping on gender and thinks it takes away from the real issues here, which are that the faculty gave her the boot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Balloftwine (talk • contribs) 02:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Which only shows your own true agenda here.. your edits have done nothing but to diminish her notably by removing this very important fact, but making sure to include that the staff wanted her gone. Your own argument could be used against you here.. many, MANY people are fired or resign because their staff want them gone, so hey, why should we include it here? Well, because it's fact and because it's notable - which is the same reason we should include that she is the first ever female president at a 100+ year institution of higher learning in the South, which is also a highly notable thing when the South is particularly known for its "boys only" type mentality when it comes to women in leadership positions. - ℅ &#10032; ALLST☆R &#10032; echo

05:45, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's well-established that a college president being female is a notably rare until recently. Breaking such a mold is historically important in many places, and most colleges loudly trumpet "...our first female president" when they appoint one because women in positions of power is something people care about. Maybe not you, maybe not me, but that's just our subjective care. Heck, the article only makes a bare passing mention of it, because maybe it isn't the most important thing about her or the college, but it's an important feature about "her at the college". DMacks (talk) 02:08, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Millsaps itself repeatedly identifies her as "first woman president", academics studying her tenure think it's important enough to note it, and she is even recognized by external awards for this role. Therefore it's important enough to multiple independent reliable sources, so it meets the criteria for inclusion. DMacks (talk) 02:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Responding per 3O request, Lucas's gender seems notable to the history of the university. Amerique dialectics 06:36, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems pretty clear that the article should point out that she is the first woman president of the college. I ask User:Balloftwine to stop removing it. Continual removal will be seen as edit warring. Dougweller (talk) 12:47, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Fine -- but the fact is that part of the reason the faculty gave her the boot is that she spent so much time crowing about her "first female" status and not enough time fundraising and leading the college. So if you're going to say "Millsaps itself repeatedly identifies her as 'first woman president' you are just buying into Lucas's own PR. Not very factual of you!--Balloftwine (talk) 22:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * When she became the first female president ever of Millsaps College, a 100+ year old institution of higher learning lead by men for 90+ of those years, she also got the right to "crow" about it. It's obvious you have an agenda here in regards to Dr. Lucas. Do you work for Millsaps College? We don't do agendas on Wikipedia. We provide the facts. Persons included in Wikipedia have to have a certain level of notability. How anyone can deny that her being the first female president of Millsaps is notable, is beyond comprehension. - ℅ &#10032; ALLST☆R &#10032; echo 22:51, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Well we can agree to disagree -- I think if you stop throwing stones at me you'll see that your own position is agenda-based as well. I have refrained from ad hominem attacks but apparently this is common practice at wikipedia, sadly. Clearly you've outnumbered me, but I think time will prove my point and such "firsts" will pass away.--Balloftwine (talk) 23:49, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Nobody here should care about anyone's agenda when it comes to including content. If other reliable sources see fit to note it (and they do, at length!), it's includable. When it comes to what looks like a single-minded mission to remove material that is notable to that level, well then there's a problem. DMacks (talk) 23:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

As I said, we can agree to disagree. I dispute "reliable" sources, but you'll note I haven't touched the entry nor will I, so you can stop being snippy. --Balloftwine (talk) 01:50, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If you have reliable sources that back up your assertions about Frances Lucas, in the interests of article balance and coverage we'd be grateful if you could supply them. If not, whatever claims you make are - even if true - irrelevant to the article as they can't be verified. You'll note that our editing policy, especially with regard to living people, is "verifiability, not truth". Hopefully you can understand why it has to be this way. EyeSerene talk 07:32, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I seriously doubt there's a source for anything remotely close to "the faculty gave her the boot is that she spent so much time crowing about her "first female" status and not enough time fundraising and leading the college". There is a source for her saying she's resigning because of disagreements with the faculty.. but that's already in the article, with the source. - ℅ &#10032; ALLST☆R &#10032; echo 08:14, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I rather doubt it too - it sounds like staff-room gossip and sour grapes... but you never know ;) EyeSerene talk 09:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

The first line of WIkipedia indicates that her "notability" is first and foremost a matter of whose daughter she is! So perhaps "first female" is all she's got going for her. Ugh. Yes, you've convinced me.--Balloftwine (talk) 20:45, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Like I said, the agenda is so evident. I'd be almost willing to be you're one of those disgruntled Millsaps College employees or very closely related to one. Regardless, the content will not be removed. Thanks. - ℅ &#10032; ALLST☆R &#10032; echo 20:50, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No, that's your analysis of what's happening. Please stop using your ideas to draw conclusions based on facts...it's against wikipedia guidelines and policies and only serves to reinforce our belief that you have an agenda. You're headed towards dangerous ground if you continue posting such commentary...continued WP:BLP violations really can't be tolerated. DMacks (talk) 21:11, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm a little confused here -- I thought this was the place we COULD talk about things, and now I'm being told I shouldn't? "Please stop using your ideas?" What is "talk" for if not for this? But I said before, I'm not touching the article -- I thought, however, this was the place to talk about why I had been editing before. Apparently robust exchange of ideas isn't what wikipedia wants.--Balloftwine (talk) 12:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You are absolutely right. Wikipedia is not a forum for a 'robust exchange of ideas'. Talk pages are not a forum for editors to argue their own different points of view about controversial issues. They are a forum to discuss how the different points of view obtained from secondary sources should be included in the article, so that the end result is neutral and objective (which may mean including conflicting viewpoints). The best way to present a case is to find properly referenced material. There's even a warning template for editors who try to use talk pages as a forum. And WP:BLP applies here, I will delete anything derogatory from this page that doesn't have a reliable source.  Article talk pages should be used to discuss ways to improve an article; not to criticize, pick apart, or vent about the current status of an article or its subject. This is especially true on the talk pages of biographies of living people. (stuff in italics is from WP:TALK. Dougweller (talk) 13:22, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Millsaps Vice President and Dean is leaving for a lateral post, leaving Millsaps in the position of searching for two top administrative posts. This IS supported by these articles. http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20090501/NEWS/90501038/1263/RSS and http://roanoke.edu/x29175.xml. --Balloftwine (talk) 02:52, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. DMacks (talk) 02:57, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

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