Talk:Minister President of Lower Saxony

Explanation of the title, a summary
This paragraph in a nutshell: Prime Minister of Lower Saxony is the title used officially and consistently by the Lower Saxon state government and the most widely used title of the Lower Saxon PMs in English language sources, including journalistic and academic sources

The title of the head of government in Lower Saxony has been extensively discussed on other pages (Talk:Christian Wulff and elsewhere). It has been established that:
 * Prime Minister is the term used consistently by the Government of Lower Saxony in official English language publications, for instance on their English language website. The PM's themselves, for instance the incumbent PM David McAllister (who's a native English speaker) is also on record using this title personally in English. The Lower Saxon government has used this title consistently at least for the duration of several years.
 * The title Prime Minister is also used when referring to the Lower Saxon PM by quality English language sources like The Independent, The Guardian, BusinessWeek, the New York Times, the BBC, Financial Times and the English edition of Deutsche Welle
 * "Prime Minister of Lower Saxony" is the most widely used term in English: While "Prime minister of lower saxony" returns 38,200 Google hits, "premier of lower saxony" returns 32,100 Google hits and "minister president of lower saxony" returns 7,180 Google hits. While all terms may be used, Prime Minister of Lower Saxony is both the title used officially by the government in English, and the most widely used term in the English language.
 * Lower Saxony is considered a (partly souvereign) state in its own right, it was created before it became part of the federal republic, and it's not a province/administrative entity (more here).
 * The German term Ministerpräsident is the standard German term for what we call Prime Minister in English; the Germans refer to foreign Prime Ministers (for instance de:Silvio Berlusconi) as Ministerpräsidenten. The terms Ministerpräsident, Prime Minister, Premier and so forth all have the same meaning, i.e. the first of the ministers, the one presiding over/chairing the government. Prime Minister is the most common term for a head of government in English.

A personal comment: I think there is no other acceptable solution than to use the official title, which is Prime Minister, in this case. I do understand that some contributors don't like the government's choice of title, but it would be original research to overturn what is the official title and most common title in English. I suggest writing letters to newspapers and the Lower Saxon government if you are unhappy with their use of the title Prime Minister. Josh Gorand (talk) 23:01, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Some more data, copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany:

Josh Gorand (talk) 19:17, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Google News Archive returns 2,670 results for lower saxony "prime minister" and 470 for lower saxony "minister-president" – or, if you want, 114 for "prime minister of lower saxony" and 42 for "minister-president of lower saxony"
 * Google Scholar returns 1280 results for "prime minister" "lower saxony", 417 results for "minister-president" "lower saxony", or, if you want 80 results for "prime minister of lower saxony" and 68 for "minister-president of lower saxony"

The conflict has not been resolved, independent of any petition drive to the government of Lower Saxony. The state constitution uses the term "Minister-President", rather than Prime Minister. Surely, as the highest legal document, it would have some credence?

Furthermore, contrary to the impression you're trying to create here, nothing has been "established". It is your opinion that quality newspapers have only used the term "Prime Minister". They have equally used "Premier", especially in recent days. Therefore, the term "Premier" is hardly original research. However, if you must insist on sticking to the official version, then it should be "Minister-President", as it has been firmly established by the Lower Saxon constitution. Leicchaucer (talk)
 * Comment: The unofficial English language translation of the state constitution will be updated to reflect the official and consistent usage by the state government (Minister President will be changed to Prime Minister), as I was told by the Parliament of Lower Saxony administration on Friday. Of course, this unofficial document is in itself quite unimportant, in addition to being (an unofficial translation of) a primary source. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:34, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

We have exhausted all arguments and possibilities, and so far no valid arguments in favour of Minister-President over the officially used term Prime Minister has been presented. As far as the translation of the constitution is concerned (the constitution per se is only written in German, the translation is not a legal document at all), see Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources. The translation of that document is a primary source, and contradicts the actual, consistent usage of the state government and countless reliable sources. Josh Gorand (talk) 23:55, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Typical legalese, as per usual with you. Fine. I'm asking for a vote by the Wikipedia administrators. Until then, kindly refrain from posting unnecessary copyright notices. I just think that actions like that contravene the spirit you purport to act in. Remember: Wiki is not about who uses the most legal language (usually not the most popular option in the community...trust me, I would know!), but about reasoning with each other. I doubt that you can (on your own) decide that a certain term is more valid than the other. But yeah, go ahead, make my day - I'm asking for a proper vote on this by experienced users. I shall defer to their judgment.Leicchaucer (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:07, 3 July 2010 (UTC).

. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:06, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This is all about providing reliable sources to back up one's edits. You are not providing reliable sources that demonstrate there is any reason to overturn the usage of the state government. Hence, there is also no reason for a vote (and as far as I'm aware, votes are generally not used on Wikipedia). Josh Gorand (talk) 00:23, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Why? It is relevant here as well as it is not merely about the fork article. Str1977 (talk) 11:16, 3 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Who has the authority to sum up sections "in a nutshell"?
 * Although I prefer "prime minister" too, the claim is false and basically nonsensical. There is no official English title to a German state government office - the only official title is the German one. But "prime minister" seems to me the most common English equivalent. All supposed "substance" reasons for rejecting it have turned out to be plainly bogus. Str1977 (talk) 11:13, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * PS. The Lower Saxon state government has no say in titles of WP articles nor in English usage. The constitution is in German and hence doesn't use English terms at all. Str1977 (talk) 11:16, 3 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Anyone has the authority to sum up one's own paragraph in a nutshell, to help people who don't have the time to read everything. It's not summing up the entire section, merely the first paragraph.


 * I totally agree that there is no "proper" official English title, as the official title of course is in German. However, the state government has an English website, and uses English translations of their titles on other formal occasions. The title they use in English is Prime Minister. While they have no "authority" over usage here, a government website a very relevant source, and I think we would need good reasons to chose a different title than the government consistently uses in English. In this case, the Lower Saxon government merely uses the most common English term for a head of government. Lots of governments translate their PM's titles into Prime Minister in English, although the native title means something else. I also agree that Ministerpräsident and Prime Minister really means the same, i.e. the one presiding over/chairing the government, the first minister, and Germans use the term Ministerpräsident when referring to foreign heads of government as well. Josh Gorand (talk) 14:53, 3 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay about the "summary" - it seemed all to "claiming official nature" to me.
 * What matters in this issue is what English term is commonly used for the office. The government website is a relevant source for this but it doesn't on its own decide the issue. And as you know, I tend to favour Prime Minister as well. Str1977 (talk) 08:31, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * PS. I am glad that no harm came from the travesty that the AfD on this article constituted. Str1977 (talk) 08:33, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The user who nominated the page for deletion, went on to copy and paste parts of its content into a "List of Ministers-President of Lower Saxony" after his AFD failed. This is the second time this has happened, the POV fork "Premier of Lower Saxony" has now been deleted and redirected as well. Josh Gorand (talk) 16:24, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There is certainly the question whether it is good style to nominate a page for deletion in the context of an ongoing discussion, but calling it a travesty seems a bit strong.
 * By the way, the vote that has arisen out of the the discussion on [] is taking place here.Bibfile (talk) 06:58, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * but why are all other German Ministerpräsidenten are called Minister-president on en.wiki ?11:53, 18 August 2016 (UTC)11:53, 18 August 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.56.183.71 (talk)

Move to Minister President of Lower Saxony
Unless there is objection, I intend to move the article to Minister President of Lower Saxony, per the constitution of Lower-Saxony. The Minister President assumes the role of a prime minister in a parliamentary system, but the office is being called Minister President (just as the German Chancellor is not being called "Prime minister"). Cs32en  Talk to me  21:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Just forget it. This page has already been attacked with deletion proposals, copyvio-forking and whatnot by those who have no regard for sources. I don't feel inclined to repeat the whole discussion (that has already been repeated hundred times now and that can be read on this page), as User:Cs32en is merely wikistalking me. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:22, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Calm down, please. I'm not following your Wiki contributions. Cs32en   Talk to me  00:07, 18 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Aside from that, I was told by the administration of the Parliament of Lower Saxony on Friday that they will correct the (unofficial) English language translation of the state constitution (in Wikipedia terms a primary source in any event) "shortly" to use the translation preferred by the state government (Prime Minister). There simply is no case for moving this article to anything else, as the sources listed above have all shown. Josh Gorand (talk) 11:03, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * all other German Ministerpräsidenten are called Minister-president on en.wiki 11:52, 18 August 2016 (UTC)5.56.183.71 (talk) 11:52, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Move protection
I have reverted the move-warring back to the status quo ante. Everybody is warned not to try this again (including all the dirty tricks of copy-paste-moves, redirect scorching, substitute moves to third and fourth titles and whatnot). Article will remain move-protected for two months. I currently see no sign of any genuine consensus to move this elsewhere, and no overriding policy considerations making either the one or the other solution mandatory, so the article will remain where it is. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Prime Minister - Minister-President consistency
dear wikipedians please be consistent ether call german Ministerpräsidents Minister-president or Prime minister it's not very helpfull switching the term all the time. witch one it will be i dont really give a sh... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.5.184.243 (talk) 16:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * i did a little search and all the other German Ministerpräsidenten I found were called minister-president on wikipedia, so i guess changing only one is would be the easier way — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.5.184.243 (talk) 16:48, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

prime minster vs minister president consistancy
then all German Ministerpräsidenten shpould be called prime minister by wiki, it does NOT make senece to call one Ministerpräsident prime minister and all others minister-president on wikipedia; wiki calls all german Länder states and not one land the other one province the next one region or county or country, and all german (Land-)Kreise are called district in wikipedia and not one county and the other one circle and an other one region or department or parish, and I'm pretty shure if someone would check out all the webpages of those Kreise or as en.wiki calls them district some of them would call themself region or county or even cirle and not distirct, so according to abouve statement that the lower saxon Ministerpräsident should be calld Prime minister while all the other Ministerpräsidenten are calld Minister-president on english wikipedia all those Kreise/districts that call them selfs region or county on the english version of their webpage should be renamed to county, region... Right ? and i'm also not shure if all the German Länder call themselves states on their pages either so if those call themselves diffrent as well they should be calld diffrent in en.wiki... Right ? 10:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)10:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)~Consistency? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.5.184.243 (talk)
 * and on Lower Saxony article minister-president is used 18:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)again-that-consistancy-guy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.5.184.243 (talk)
 * The University of Edinburgh will be giving an honary degree to "Minister-President David McAllister" []. I'd suspect that the University will have thought about the correct title more than some news source. 86.146.125.223 (talk) 15:54, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

The Government of Scotland uses the title Prime Minister of Lower Saxony. I'd suspect that the Government of Scotland, not to say the Government of Lower Saxony, will have thought about the correct title more than some news source. Josh Gorand (talk) 07:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
 * he is not the prime minister of scottland he is the Ministerpräsident von Niedersachsen. A Scottish Government webpage is NOT a valid source about official German political terms/rules/laws
 * and even if we would consider the Government of Scotland to be the experts on German laws/titles/... is that still not an answer to the problem of inconsistancy in calling one German Ministerpräsident prime minister and ALL the other German Ministerpräsidenten Minister-president _consistancy_is_a_b178.210.114.106 (talk) 07:34, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * List of German Ministers-President by longevity
 * Conference of Ministers-President
 * List of longest governing German Ministers-President

178.210.114.106 (talk) 16:44, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

is the Prime Minister of Lower Saxony special?
since he is called prime minister and not minister-president like the other german state governors - is it a special office? does he have special rights others don't have? does he NOT have special rights others don't have? is he different? does he have an other official title? 95.208.187.120 (talk) 17:06, 14 June 2013 (UTC)


 * No, he's not special in any way. It's just that, when the topic title was discussed, there was one user not prepared to accept any solution but his preferred term (Prime Minister). You can easily guess who that user was by looking at the discussions of the same question above. 95.33.41.111 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:24, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

There are arguments (!) for Minister-president
1) A Prime Minister is NOT the same as a Minister-President. A Premier Minister is the first minister of a monarchy, because in a Monarchy the King himself is the head of government. That's why the British people use Premier or Prime Minister in the English language 2) A German Minister-President acts not only as the leader of the Government but also as the head of state. There are three arguments for: a) he has the right to pardon, b) he awarded orders and decorations c) he represents the state abroad 3) The Lower Saxon State Chancellery uses Minister-President. The practice during the office of David McAllister was directed by him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:638:607:205:0:0:0:30 (talk) 07:27, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * all other German Ministerpräsidenten are called Minister-President on en.wiki - the Ministerpräsident of Lower Saxony is not any different than the other German Ministerpräsidenten #consistency11:49, 18 August 2016 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.56.183.71 (talk)

Requested move 25 June 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page move. Mahveotm (talk) 21:26, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Prime Minister of Lower Saxony → Minister President of Lower Saxony – It is used by the gouvernment itself, is the correct translation and is used by every other minister president in germany, using a different (and wrong) title here is confusing cause its the same office as in NRW or bavaria. Norschweden (talk) 19:39, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Support. Correct title and used in articles about the chief ministers of other German states. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:06, 27 June 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.