Talk:Minor third

Augmented second
I've reworded part of this section for two reasons:

1 - Its wording seemed to suggest that the key of A minor was somehow special, and not just an example.

2 - It states that the augmented second enables cadences of major keys to be used. In fact, it's the raised seventh degree that causes this - the augmented second is just a consequence of that note having been raised. The melodic minor scale also enables such cadences, but without an augmented second being present.

Quarter tone

I'd also like to know about the other meanings in quarter tone music and Arabic music, i.e. a quarter tone sharper than a major second. Is 'augmented second' the official term for it in quarter tone music theory, and does the Arabic term for it also translate to augmented second? Or is the meaning here just literally: same size as a major second but a quarter tone larger? If the latter, then I feel the term 'augmented second' shouldn't be used in either of those cases

Finally - I wonder why the augmented second is here at all under minor third, and not in its own article. None of the other intervals include their enharmonic equivalents as a separate section in the same article (e.g., augmented sixth and minor seventh). Ok, I know 'diminished fifth' and its enharmonic equivalent 'augmented fourth' are both included under tritone but that's a special case, and has got more to do with them also being (more importantly) each other's 'inversion' rather than just enharmonic equivalents. Any thoughts? Thanks, (Mark, 08 Apr 06)


 * The interval a quarter tone higher than a tone I believe is called a medium second. Its listing here might be inappropriate. Sorry, I was thinking of the wrong interval. The term "augmented second" for this is confusing, but I do believe it is used in such a way. Rainwarrior 05:01, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * As for enharmonics, the augmented sixth has a special contrapuntal function in classical music that minor sevenths do not (it sounds weird, but if you want to check up on this, take a look at a harmony textbook and you'll probably find a whole chapter on augmented sixths). The augmented second doesn't usually carry such significance. Rainwarrior 04:58, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree that augmented sixths are very different from minor sevenths. That's why I chose that example. I wanted to show that all enharmonic equivalents are significantly different - and I feel the augmented second is no exception. Look at its history. In contrast to the familiar and 'sweetly demure' minor third, the augmented second's eastern connotations caused it to be regarded with xenophobic suspicion. Melodically, it was (and still is) considered awkward and ungainly, to the extent that it led to the creation of the melodic minor scale. Harmonically, judging by its rarity, (and before the introduction of equal temperament), it was probabably considered a few steps lower than even the Devil's interval: the tritone - until the age of chromaticism liberated it and jazz harmony found it a permanent place in one of my all time favourite chords, the augmented ninth. (Mark, 8 April 2006)


 * I adjusted the description of the augmented second. The interval that is the subject of this article is the minor third, and not some other interval which is a quarter tone smaller. Perhaps this "arabic augmented second" belongs in another article? Rainwarrior 05:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced statement
I've removed the tag and the statement, finding no support for it.

One example: on page 37, of Habib Hassan Touma's The Music of the Arabs he calls 250 cents a "medium second". 300 cents is an augmented second or minor third. Gene Ward Smith 02:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * In the Arab tone system, augmented second does not refer to a minor third, but rather an interval one quarter tone wider than a major second.

Split proposal
I'd like to split off augmented second from minor third and expand both articles. A person wanting to read about augmented seconds is not really looking for an exposition re minor thirds, and vice-versa. Gene Ward Smith 02:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * If we do split, we don't need a disambiguation page, as the split template suggests. But each should have a strong link to the other, of course. - Rainwarrior 06:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm going to revise my earlier statement. We should expand the articles first. Only when there's enough information to justify a split should we do so. - Rainwarrior 00:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't really seem to make sence to keep augmented second on the minor third page. If the page was under a different name that described both, then yes, but it just seems wrong now. --LifeEnemy 19:25, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose &mdash; Seems the "same" enough to me. Sure, they're different, but like the article says, they're enharmonically equivalent in equal temperament... Kareeser|Talk! 20:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Oppose, they're identical in all but name. --Telos 22:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks like we have enough of a consensus (with the OP withdrawing the fork), so I'll remove the tag now. Kareeser|Talk! 05:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

uhh ... o.o;;
could someone translate this into layman's terms so i can read it? ^_^; ~!!!Chris!!! 23:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the easiest way to describe a minor third is "an interval of 3 half steps".

This description should be added to the beginning of this article in my humble opinion. (A half step is also known as a semitone. It is also the distance between two adjacent keys on a piano.)  Mark 70.197.193.186 (talk) 06:46, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested audio
I have added one audio example to the article. Hyacinth (talk) 06:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Which is more consonant, the minor third or the major third?
The article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_third says:

"The major third is classed as an imperfect consonance and is considered one of the most consonant intervals after the unison, octave, perfect fifth, and perfect fourth."

The article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_third says:

"The minor third is classed as an imperfect consonance and is considered one of the most consonant intervals after the unison, octave, perfect fifth, and perfect fourth." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.217.89.88 (talk) 23:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * There are so many theories of consonance that it makes little sense to just have that stated, unqualified, in either article.  guppyfinsoup  ( talk/contribs )

19th Harmonic
I'm making few changes to acknowledge the 19/16 ratio that also produces a minor third. This is also the 19th Partial (or harmonic) of the overtone series, and one of at least 3 ways to derive a minor 3rd from the overtone series. The first change is to:

"The minor third may be derived from the harmonic series as the interval between the fifth and sixth harmonics."

I added that it may also be derived from the 19th harmonic or a ratio of 19/16. The second change is to acknowledge that the 19/16 ratio equals 297 centsComposerjude (talk) 00:47, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Now accompanied by three images. Hyacinth (talk) 08:55, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

NCIS Reference
This was referenced by Ducky to Palmer on "Engaged" Part 1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.6.201.84 (talk) 04:15, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

c(i) — a. Is this a minor third?
Assume that the first note of a certain tune is c(i) (c-note of one-line octave) and the second note is a (a-note of small octave). Is this a minor third interval? 89.149.96.128 (talk) 12:54, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:36, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * 3 Cycles of minor thirds - BassLessons.tv.webm