Talk:Minuteman Project

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Is the 'T-shirt incident' section worth keeping?
It looks to me like it's just a way for some dude to advertise his campaign... don't know the wiki lingo for this, but it's gotta be against the rules. Stupid pandering. I'm cutting any references to the guy who did it, but if some other people think it's a good idea, they ought to cut the whole section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.107.159 (talk) 11:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

It should be kept. It provides an example of action taken by a member of the group as, supposedly, a sponsored activity. It shows a non-violent, albeit possibly-illegal, action worthy of posting. 75.34.183.68 (talk) 03:24, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

The effort to keep the Minuteman Project site a series of discordant events is an attempt to marginalize the Minuteman Project. The Minuteman Project is a grass roots effort by patriotic Americans that want to see true immigration reform. They would like to have a serious dialogue about immigration issues, illegal immigration versus legal immigration, national security interests including need to know who is in our country and what they are doing, the adverse impact on various communities as a result of illegal immigration and failure to enforce immigration laws, including depriving U.S. citizens of jobs, increased competition for work and the determinental effect on worker's wages and the costs of providing illegal aliens services (education, medical, protective services, etc.). MMP believes in the rule of law, and the need to enforce our nation's laws. If the nations' laws change, so be it. But until they do, the current laws should be enforced. Ignoring the issues is not a strategy for long-term success.

The Minuteman Project began with citizen volunteers who manned positions on our nations borders, kept vigilant watch and notified the U.S. Border Patrol of illegal crossings and/or what appeared to be attempts to enter our country illegally. Then President Bush characterized them as "vigilantes," when in truth they were ordinary U.S. Citizens, concerned for our country and wanting to participate in civil activism to send a message to Washington that their priorities are all wrong.

I denounce the attempt to portray the Minuteman movement and Minuteman Project as a series of squabbles over tiny and insignificant events. This article needs a complete re-write, with a nuetral point of view, that recognizes that Americans are concerned about national security, border crossings, drugs entering our country through porous borders and the success of the Minuteman movement in meeting the need and expressing voters discontent with the business as usual approach of Washington, D.C.

Minuteman is not a series of incidents - it's grassroots patriotism and American activism at it's best. 70.183.17.26 (talk) 22:43, 16 March 2010 (UTC) RadisRadis
 * See WP:SOAPBOX -- Neil N   talk to me  00:36, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the anon has a bit of a point, why keep a paragraph about a single illegal-immigrant holding up a T-shirt? - Schrandit (talk) 00:45, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The ACLU got involved so it has some notability. But my comment was directed more towards phrases like "...it's grassroots patriotism and American activism at it's best." -- Neil N   talk to me  01:08, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Making the page shorter
This article was very long. Part of that I believe is because there were sections for three other groups on the page. First, these groups should have their own page rather than making this even longer; and second, the content of the groups violated NPOV. They have been removed. Panfakes 13:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Delete
I propose this article be deleted, and The Minuteman Project Inc. moved here. Minuteman Civil Defense Corps is not called "Minuteman Project." Tim Long 02:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed; done. Old title (The Minuteman Project Inc) was awkward, anyways, and Minuteman Project is the better-known name. ~ S0CO ( talk 21:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Indymedia is not a reliable source
From Wikipedia policy about self published sources :

"Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources."

Indymedia appears to be a site in which anyone can upload an article, similar to Wikipedia but for news. I'm removing all information using this site as a reference. Please reply if you have a reason why it should be quoted. Panfakes 17:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * That's correct. Indynedia is just a big forum, and forums can never be used as sources, except for articles about themslves. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 06:19, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

POV
This article has become greatly anti-MMP. Clean-up is needed. CASCADIA Howl/Trail 02:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to weed out the links and some unnecessary info. Ex: the same blog being linked 4-5 times. This article is long enough as it is. Panfakes 14:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to agree. It seems rather suspicious that nearly 1/3 of this article accuses MMP of connections with neo-nazi organizations, with the only source being a single blog entry on an activist website. I think it would be safe to remove this section, or at least greatly shorten it unless other reputable sources can be located.


 * It would be better to say the ADL has claimed that there are neo-nazi connections, rather than asserting it as true with only a single blog entry on ADL's website as evidence.


 * To be fair, the MMP homepage itself claims it was once associated with neo-nazi groups, but has since broken from them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.183.68 (talk) 03:26, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

The part about the Riddle guy saying his favorite activities include "ethnic cleansing" is suspicious. I checked out the source and there's nothing in it about a guy named riddle or the other stuff it talks about in that paragraph. Mrwnt10 02:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Major cleanup and restructuring needed
This article has increasingly become a depository for criticism of the Minuteman Project. I have attempted to reorganize (as opposed to deleting) critical content, but this is starting to get ridiculous. In order to meet the standards of Wikipedia, the use of reliable sources must take precedence over blog entries such as the ADL blog that has been cited so liberally in this article. Many slanderous statements have been published citing this blog entry, even some which the entry itself made no allusion to.

I think it is very telling that the Spanish-language version of this page is more disciplined and neutral than its English counterpart. Perhaps it should be the model that is followed?

The article does not even clearly state what the Minuteman Project does. "They monitor the border": What does that mean? Are they armed? Are they violent? Peaceful? Do they shoot at illegal immigrants? Report them? Take pictures? Have they been effective by any measure? Instead we are treated to detailed descriptions of related controversies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.205.143.247 (talk) 17:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I second that - by reading this article I have no idea what the MMP actually does. Surely, if they are an evil, racist hate group then it could be explained what actions they take to deserve such a label.

I agree - someone seems intent on making the Minuteman Project out to be a series of incidents, clashes and/or disputes. The Minuteman Movement is real and for many Minuteman Project Inc is the voice of the movement. Minuteman Project is about educating and raising awareness of the border related issues (national safety and security, lax immigration law enforcement, inadequate funding of the Border Patrol and insufficient numbers of law enforcement personnel. Additionally, the societal costs of illegal immigration, the hidden costs (increased law enforcement, health care, and education for example) that are borne by our taxpayers.  Minuteman Project also advocates for a full national debate on the issue of illegal immigration and possible immigration law reform.  In the meantime, the laws we have ought to be enforced or changed.  Until they are changed, law enforcement should enforce our nation's laws - not ignore them.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.183.17.26 (talk) 17:05, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Support section
I deleted the unsourced parts of the support section, not to eliminate validity to their organization but because simply-put, no verifiable source can be found to back them up. Also, there's no need to say that hispanics support them. Should we also say there are African-Americans, Vietnamese people, and two people from Finland in the group? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.27.213.170 (talk • contribs).
 * If we're going to go through and delete unsourced material, it would be best to do it throughout the entire article rather than simply erasing half of the support section (including parts that were adequately cited). To do otherwise would just add imbalance to what is already a very POV article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.15.226.72 (talk • contribs).

Why did someone remove sections criticizing Minutemen?
today the sections containing criticism of the group was removed, including allegations that some Minuteman videotaped a murder of an illegal immigrant. Some serious monkeying around is being done here. If this is allowed, then the article loses its NPOV and needs to be thrown out or entirely rewritten. Robert J Nagle 03:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I've restored it, but it may beed further work to maintina neutrality. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 03:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

So I guess we need to "maintain neutrality" on the KKK articles too?

Racist language
Today I saw that this article referred to a group of immigrants as "lolipop pushers". This is completely ridiculous. If we have to allow the racists to edit the page about themselves, we need to at least keep a close eye on what they're writing. I've already reverted it to NPOV, and would appreciate non-offensive language in the future. 68.101.77.56 22:31, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Watch the personal attacks. By calling the Minutemen racists, you're undermining your credibility, although in this case I completely agree that "lollipop pusher" is abhorrent and racist and should not be included. StaticElectric 02:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

This article is a NPOV disaster
At least four or five sections that are anti-Minutemen, and one short section in favor. Either more positive coverage should be allowed, or the other stuff needs a serious look. Is there a way of filing a formal complaint regarding NPOV on Wikipedia? StaticElectric 02:18, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Not every group gets a lot of positive publicity. This article already has a "POV" tag on it. If you want to get more input I recommend filing a "request for comment". WP:RfC ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 04:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

SPLC's views
Why is it that a group, the Southern Poverty Law Center here, is the final arbiter of what is or is not a "hate group"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.162.164.144 (talk) 22:43, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Mainly because thats how they promote themselves. In fact SPLC is very biased. Case and point would be considering Ramos and Compean as a hate crime. http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?site_area=1&aid=292 The problem is, they were never prosecuted on that nor as far as I know were they ever arrested on that. I've read the case, Congress has read and been involved with the case, both Democrats and Republicans have asked Bush to pardon, or revisit the case. Evidence pertinent to their defense was barred by the court. Since the arrest of the victim in this hate crime, for bringing drugs across the border again (3rd or 4th time), I think the courts are finally thinking of looking at the case again. This is SPLC's hate crime.

SPLC does this all the time. I've tried to use them as a resource but the truth is they don't cite facts for most of what they say, so its questionable to use them a source in my view. Wmb1957 19:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Did SPLC claim that Ramos and Compean were convincted of a hate crime? If not, it's mostly irrelevant. They are perfectly entitled to form an opinion at odds with the convinction. Whether they are a sufficiently noteable organisation for the opinion to be mentioned here, I'm not sure. Note that in any case, it's simply an opinion. We don't claim that Minuteman Project are a extreme nativist group simply that the SPLC consider them one. This is the same, for example, as to the way we don't say XYZ is a terrorist group, simply country ABC considers them one Nil Einne (talk) 18:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Counterprotests at Minuteman events
Counterprotestors against the Minutemen have included Anti-Racist Action, International ANSWER the Revolutionary Communist Party, the Progressive Labor Party, the International Socialist Organization, the AntiMinutemen Defendants, the Free People's Movement, the Bay Area Coalition to Fight the Minutemen, Coalicion Deporten a la Migra, the Brown Berets, the American Indian Movement, the Zapatista Solidarity Coalition, the Philadelphia Revolutionary Marxist Collective, the Sacramento Mexican American Political Association, the Brown Syndicate, the Brass Liberation Orchestra, the Chicano Consortium, Sacramento Food Not Bombs, anarchists, and other anti-conservative and anti-border activists. --Grondor (talk) 20:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Your point being? ~ S0CO ( talk 16:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Criticism
In the section about groups that protest against the MMP, I found this sentance: "...The Catholic Church, anarchists, and other anti-conservative and anti-border enforcement activists." Not only is there no citation for the entire Catholic Church, officially or unofficially, protesting against them, there is also no indication why the Catholic Church is labeled "anti-conservative and anti-border enforcement". Finally, couldn't the writer have found a wiki link for Catholic Church? Honestly. Pop6 (talk) 20:20, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that always looked a little suspect to me too. If you have not already you should take it down. - Schrandit (talk) 07:19, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Requests for Contributions
For at least two years, I've received frequent requests for financial contributions from the Minuteman Project. Being cautious by nature, I have not sent any funds, but have replied, over and over again, requesting copies of the organization's latest financial data (audited income statement and balance sheet). I've also advised that until I receive such data, I will not contribute. There has never been a response to my repeated requests, which leads me to believe that 1)envelopes are opened and checks etc. are removed; 2)if no check etc. is enclosed, everything is discarded; 3)no one bothers to take my name off the mailing list, and; 4)if the foregoing assumptions are correct, then we are looking at a large and well-publicized scam, one in which the organization does expend monies for training, travel, equipment and other legitimate expenses, but is either failing to keep accurate records, is wasting a large percentage of moneys received on professional fund-raisers, or is diverting money elsewhere. This whole thing stinks to high Heaven. I hope I'm mistaken about this because I am 100% against illegal immigration and the abuses it perpetuates.

Harry S R (talk) 02:51, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Harry - the Minuteman Project uses a fundraising organization to solicit funds to support their efforts. The mailers that you return to a P.O. Box are forwarded to another company, a caging operation, that opens the envelopes, processes the checks, deposits them and enters donor information in the computer. I cannot say why they don't honor your requests to have your name removed from their lists (they should).

The professional fundraising organization has been very successful in introducing Minuteman Project and the border related issues to individuals, raising their awareness of the border issues and giving them an opportunity to participate. All of the solicitations have not been about money - for example, several were about signing a petition encouraging President Bush to pardon agents Ramos and Campeon of the U.S. Border Patrol (they were charged criminally for violating the rights of a Mexican national attempting an illegal border crossing). Minuteman Project sent more than 75,000 mailings requesting support for a pardon of Ramos and Campeon. Under increased political pressure, President Bush did not pardon the agents, but instead commuted their sentences.

I suggest you contact Minuteman Project via their website and contact us information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.183.17.26 (talk) 17:14, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

NPOV
This article is now ridiculously pro-MM. I was linked to this article from the Wikipedia article about vigilantism. That article contains the statement "The Minuteman Project have beed (sic) described as vigilantes dedicated to expelling people who cross the US-Mexico border illegally." This is sourced twice. This article, in contrast, contains no sourced information about them being a supposed vigilante organization except the section about a fake video. The article opens with text about protesters attacking Minutemen members, without describing at all what the organization does, which makes the protests seem unjustified and biases the reader towards the Minutemen from the beginning. Furthermore, under "counter protests," it lists as major protesters against the minutemen "the Revolutionary Communist Party, the Progressive Labor Party, the International Socialist Organization," "the Zapatista Solidarity Coalition, the Philadelphia Revolutionary Marxist Collective" and "anarchists." These groups are listed blatantly for the purposes of identifying the opponents of the Minutemen with communism, with no citations backing this section up whatsoever. I suggest it be removed immediately, and I'd like to put an NPOV tag on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.191.155.184 (talk) 18:15, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Though your points are valid, they have been brought up a couple of times already, and there is already a NPOV tag present. Armuk (talk) 18:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

It does not appear that there has been a discussion on removal of the NPOV tag (which is not here now), so I'll put it back up.Apothecia (talk) 20:43, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Deleting unsourced material
In the past couple of months some IPs have added a large amount of unsourced material. Since the material concerns living people, I've removed. Please don't restore or add anything that isn't verifiable.  Will Beback   talk    06:23, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Will be back seems intent on keeping this listing of Minuteman Project bent in one direction - painting MMP as a bunch of no good racists. Efforts to put a statement as to the purpose of the group, the groups events (successes, accomplishments and sometimes it's controversies) and an attempt by yes, real individuals with names to pirate the organization - he seems intent to keep this listing a pile of dung.

The individuals lost their right to remain anonomous when they stepped into the public spotlight, attempted to hijack the organization, accused the Minuteman Project founder of wrong-doing and then launched a e-mail blast and media campaign to smear Gilchrist. Marvin L. Stewart claimed to be the new Minuteman Project President and Deborah Courtney claimed to be the organization's Secretary/Treasurer and Barbara Coe, of the California Coalition on Immigration Reform (CCIR) resigned her position with Minuteman Project, Inc. but then participated in a lawsuit against Gilchrist.

The material posted is consistent with the news reports that widely publicize the hijackers names, the material was being sources - but Will Be the judge of that didn't allow the material to be sourced - removing it within six minutes of posting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.183.17.26 (talk) 17:23, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

NPOV
I placed a pov tag because the bulk of the article only discusses incidents and criticism with barely any mention of what the organization is. Showtime2009 (talk) 05:37, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Is the organization notable for what it does or is it notable for the controversy it creates? -- Neil N   talk to me  05:56, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

You were right to do so. Will Be There is intent on keeping Minuteman Project looking like nothing but a string of controversies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.183.17.26 (talk) 17:24, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Support from National Alliance and Aryan Nations
I removed this sentence:

"The organizations National Alliance and Aryan Nations have endorsed the Minuteman Project, the latter proclaiming it, 'a call for action on part of all Aryan soldiers.'"

Although it simply states the facts, its conspicuous inclusion in this section undermines NPOV. There are many mainstream groups that support the Minuteman Project, and it seems unfair to devote one of three paragraphs in the "Support" section to groups that most people would view as racist and fringe. This would be akin to mentioning that a prominent group of communists support the United States Democratic Party. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cwenger (talk • contribs) 14:44, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Shawna Forde
There should be some greater history added, I think, some mention of the consequences of this group of individuals, including the murders allegedly committed by members of the group. The problem is that doing so it would be 'very' difficult to remain NPOV. Still, the KKK entry covers the violent history, it seems reasonable to suggest that this entry also carry some background in to member history. Damotclese (talk) 16:36, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree that there should be more history added to this page. I did some research and found these sources that could be helpful. The consequences should be addressed, it is a vital part of the topic that can't be ignored. http://www.minutemanhq.com/pdf_files/norwood_minuteman_report_61705.pdf http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/article_e1078ca2-09b3-5530-9aec-adc4dd545eba.html http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2005/summer/arizona-showdown — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.23.2.225 (talk) 22:31, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

RfC
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 17:02, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

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Based on which law?
The article gives me no idea on which law this "project" is based. As a German I do not understand why the government of a sovereign state allows private persons to monitor its borders. Are they allowed to shoot "illegal" immigrants? Instead you get a lot of information about the controversies surrounding this organisation. The POV of this article does not seem very neutral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.6.123.80 (talk) 19:33, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

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