Talk:Mira Mesa, San Diego

Philippine Festival
I plan on adding the Philippine Festival at Mira Mesa Recreation Park to the Community events section. The first one is occurring this Saturday, June 17th 2006. That is, if it's a success and truly becomes an annual event. If anyone disagrees, please let me know before editing it out.--DavePretty 16:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Mira Mesa Website?
Is there any reason the link to www.miramesa.com in the External Links section keeps getting taken out? It's certainly related to the article.--Orayzio 19:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Hm.. I don't know. I never realized it was offensive to some people, however I'm not sure if it's really an important thing to include. (but if you do include it, just so you know, Manila is spelled with one l)--Teh darkcloud 01:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it should be mentioned. The entry as it is (and all other San Diego entries) are very sugar-coated! It would be useful to either cite or counterclaim it. (For example, "MM has long had the nickname of Minila Mesa, yet the Filipino population is only X%") --24.249.108.133 22:11, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Uhm... Dat Phan?
Someone added Dat Phan to the Notable People From Mira Mesa section, I've never heard that he was from Mira Mesa, nor can I find anything on Google about it. Can anyone verify this?--Teh darkcloud 01:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * LOL...Dat Phan? Just because he's Vietnamese doesn't mean he's from Mira Mesa!!!  He grew up in City Heights and Santee.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.220.83.42 (talk) 04:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of sugar-coating
"Perfect blend of California living"? Sounds like the Chamber of Commerce has been editing the entry!


 * Lived in Mira Mesa for two years and found it to be horrible. Traffic was incredible - my office was two miles away from my home and it still would take 15 - 20 minutes to get there in the morning. There literally are no alternative routes to Mira Mesa Blvd. and the lights are such that you have to sit through multiple cycles of each to get from A to B. My fellow residents also had no respect for other peoples' vehicles - I got more parking lot dents in two years there than in the 5 years since (well actually I haven't gotten any more dents since) and we're talking two or three inch long, "let's see how hard I can hit this guy's vehicle with the edge of my door" crap. COL was incredibly high and value for dollar (housing, etc.) was incredibly low - I still marvel at 9.5 x 9.5 third/forth bedrooms (a very small study and essentially a big closet were the only practical uses we could find for them - don't think a decent bed would have even fit in either given the door and window placements). About the only good thing was there were several options for ethnic food which made lunch more enjoyable than the standard fast food chains - but that can't be much of a ringing endorsement of the place. We constantly heard old timers (people who'd been in the area for 15 years or more) say how it was great back then, but they couldn't stand the place any more for the overcrowding and exorbitant prices. I've lived from coast to coast to coast and back and feel this was the worst place. Also, don't forget the corrosion of anything metal left outdoors or in your garage due to the high salt content from the ocean (oddly enough never a problem for us on Long Island where we lived for 4x as long). Jmdeur (talk) 16:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Christmas Tree
I'm taking out that part about the Christmas tree. It's outdated. I added that a few years ago (I think I worded it badly too.) And since then the forum itself disappeared from the website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Teh darkcloud (talk • contribs) 05:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Demographics
"Asian/Pacific Islander 41.2%, White 33.4%, African American/Black 25%, Native American 0.35. 16.9 % of the population was Hispanic or Latino."

Where is the source of these demographic figures? These numbers don't look right at all, with a collective total of 116.85%! Just counting the Asian/Pacific Islander, White, Native American and Hispanic-Latino statistics alone yield 91.85%. What's the actual numbers? Is the White population inclusive of both non-Hispanic and Hispanic White? Surely the African-American population isn't that high as well, with these numbers seemingly trumping the numbers that Southeast San Diego and East San Diego/City Heights/Mid-City may have within the City's urban core?

...This link may provide the answers: Based on the pie chart for "Races in Zip Code 92126," the majority of the area is White alone and Asian. The African-American population is considerably smaller than the "25%" listed on the demographics for this page (based on the data, it's actually about 5%). Hope that clears that up —Preceding unsigned comment added by Syghost (talk) 08:18, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Allied Gardens, San Diego, California which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 23:16, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit warring over maps
There seems to have been a great deal of edit warring at this page recently. Wikipedia discourages edit warring, and if carried to an extreme it can get a person banned from Wikipedia entirely. Those of you that have been reverting each other's changes, please come to this Talk Page and work out what it is that you disagree over, and let's reach WP:Consensus on what we want to say. I'll help if needed; I am a person interested in San Diego neighborhoods but with no connection to Mira Mesa. --MelanieN (talk) 15:49, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia Rules Should Be Followed By Everyone
Melanie, as I mentioned on your talk page there have indeed been edit wars and I fully understand your desire for consensus. The problem, from my perspective, is that I have put information on Wikipedia fully in concert with the basic rules. All the information I have provided is taken, not just from any map I can create on the SanGIS website, but rather from authoritative sources provided by The City of San Diego. Community boundaries in San Diego are recorded in the San Diego General Plan. The person or persons with whom I seem to be competing continue to post maps that are incorrect and have no citation.

This is not a new discussion. There are those in our community who, for a variety of reasons, want the community boundaries changed. Of course, that sort of thing happens in a great many communities for just as many reasons. The difference in this case is that the person or persons claim that the boundaries of Mira Mesa are not what is recorded in the General Plan. I am the President of the Mira Mesa Town Council, a member of the Executive Committee of the Mira Mesa Community Planning Group, and a Member of the Mira Mesa-Scripps Ranch Retired Volunteer Patrol Foundation. My undergraduate education is in computer science and I studied Systems Management and was awarded a masters degree at USC. also, as a member of the Planning Group Executive Committee I am required to renew my City Planning qualification periodically by taking a course offered by the City of San Diego called The Community Orientation Workshop. I tell you this in hopes that you will agree that my references and my credentials to use those references place me on very solid ground, authoritatively speaking, on this issue. Should the City Council take it upon itself to amend the boundaries of Mira Mesa, I may disagree with the action, but as is the case now, I must abide by the result.

Please help by at least leveling this playing field by requiring that all entries cite authoritative references.

Thanks.

TedBrengel (talk) 16:45, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Ted Brengel

Another Incorrect Map with NO Citation
This is insane! The rules are clear. One must not put their original ideas or creations on Wikipedia but rather each contributor is required to get information from authoritative sources and then cite the sources in the context of the article. It is simply not possible to carry on a discussion unless we all operate by the same rules--consensus is simply not possible otherwise. I will once again post the correct map of the Community of Mira Mesa on the page. Wikipedia, please help me end this insanity!

TedBrengel (talk) 17:13, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Ted Brengel

Land Use Map
One of the most frequently asked questions involves the various land uses in our community. We always refer a person asking this type of question to the Community Plan. The map on page 5 give an excellent abbreviated version of all land uses and serves as an excellent starting point for this type of question. It occurred to me that it probably would be a very good idea to put it on the Wikipedia page to perhaps get some of those questions answered without anyone having to seek out a Planning Group or Town Council Member. I therefore posted the land use map from the Community Plan very near the top of the Mira Mesa article.

TedBrengel (talk) 18:05, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Ted Brengel


 * OK. I am not an expert on copyright issues, but Wikipedia has very strong policies about using material that has been published elsewhere. Let's wait and see if your map stays; if it gets removed it will be because of copyright issues, not because there is anything wrong with the information. --MelanieN (talk) 18:15, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

How to handle this
OK, a couple of things. First, calm down. We will get this resolved. Things don't happen instantly here, because other people are not online and logged in 24/7. Second, please do not revert this entry again yourself. There is a rule at Wikipedia called the 3-revert rule that says anyone who reverts another person's edit more than 3 times in a 24-hour period, even if they are right, is in danger of getting blocked from Wikipedia for edit-warring. Consider this your official warning not to revert again; instead, send me or someone else a message and let us handle it.

Now, to the meat of the situation. As I understand it, someone has been replacing the official city neighborhood map with a map that they themselves drew up, or at least that has no link to an official or reliable source - is that correct? In that case they are in the wrong and their map should not be allowed here since it has no citation to a Reliable Source. The city's neighborhood map is the one that should be here.

Now to the backstory: it looks to me as if their map is drawn to exclude the westernmost portions of the community, such as Sorrento Mesa - am I reading that right? I encountered this same wiki-battle here a year or two ago, when someone from the Mira Mesa Town Council was trying to insist there was no such place as Sorrento Mesa. It was clear to me then, and is clear to me now, that passions run high on this situation. That provides a caution to you: you are not neutral here, you are an involved party, and you need to be careful not to insert your point of view into the article. You need to continue to stick to what Reliable Sources say; your "expertise" cited above does not entitle you to edit the article any way you want. I say this just to let you know where you stand, not to suggest you have been doing anything wrong. Up to now your edits have been factual and based on Reliable Sources, and just I want to make sure it stays that way.

Finally, to what we can do about the continual insertions of this unreferenced map: the person (obviously the same person) who is doing it is not logging in or creating an account; they are doing it anonymously under an IP account, which can change, and which is very hard to block or control. However, if it continues I will consult an administrator (I am not one) and find out if there is some way to block or limit this person. --MelanieN (talk) 18:11, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Update: the person has now established an identity and explained where they are getting this map; they did not invent it so I am striking my comments about them. --MelanieN (talk) 18:30, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Facts
This edit war is indeed as tiring as it is unnecessary. Much of the key information being placed on the Mira Mesa Wikipedia page is incorrect. The page in question is for neighborhoods of San Diego (of which Mira Mesa is one). However, the edits by Ted Brengel and others continue to alter the content and description to refer to the "Community of Mira Mesa". The "Community" of Mira Mesa is actually the Mira Mesa Community Planning Area. There are 52 community planning areas within the City of San Diego. Many of these areas contain multiple neighborhoods. The Mira Mesa Community Planning Area contains three neighborhoods... Mira Mesa, Sorrento Valley and Miramar. Sorrento Mesa is also within the Community Planning area but is not a recognized neighborhood in the City of San Diego. The edits by Ted Brengel and his associates are attempting to assert that the Mira Mesa Community Planning Area boundaries are actually the boundaries of the neighborhood of Mira Mesa. This is blatantly incorrect. Mira Mesa and Sorrento Valley are two distinct neighborhoods. They have different zip codes, are serviced by different post offices and are patrolled by different San Diego Police divisions.

Melanie, you may recall as similar issue from March 2011 about Sorrento Mesa and user "BariVaz". Bari Vaz is also a member of the Mira Mesa Town Council and was formerly a member of the Mira Mesa Community Planning Group. She is a co-conspirator in the effort to expand the borders of the neighborhood of Mira Mesa to encompass the entire Community Planning Area (and thus annex vast portions of the neighborhood of Sorrento Valley). Here's a link to that User Talk thread...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:BariVaz

According to the City of San Diego, the official map of neighborhoods is maintained and updated by the San Diego Police Department. A copy of the map can be seen here...

http://www.sandiego.gov/police/pdf/2011policecitywidemap.pdf

The map that Ted Brengel keeps removing is the official City of San Diego neighborhood map sourced from SanGIS, the official keeper of maps for the City of San Diego and the County of San Diego. Michael Klein, an Information Systems Analyst with the City of San Diego Planning and Neighborhood Restoration Department issued this statement to clarify the situation:

"Neighborhoods are boundaries reflecting the perception of residents within a particular area. Neighborhoods often are contained within communities, although they may not be entirely within one community. In some community plans, neighborhoods are mapped in the plan as of the date of plan adoption. Because perception of neighborhood boundaries is more fluid than that of community boundaries, the Police Department conducts a periodic outreach to residents to identify any perceived shift in boundaries. Adjustments to neighborhood boundaries are made by the Police Department over time based on input provided by citizens and Police Department needs. Therefore, the Police Department is the City’s “keeper” of neighborhood boundaries."

Members of the Mira Mesa Town Council and the Mira Mesa Community Planning Group have been actively working to edit sources such as Wikipedia and Google Maps over the last several months in an effort to legitimize their efforts to expand the neighborhood boundaries of Mira Mesa. The residents and businesses of Sorrento Valley have only recently discovered these efforts (the placing of Mira Mesa neighborhood signs in Sorrento Valley was the catalyst) and are actively working to correct these erroneous edits. The Sorrento Valley Town Council has recently been formed to promote and protect the interest of the residents and businesses in Sorrento Valley...

http://www.sorrentovalleytc.com

Unfortunately, the terms neighborhood and community are often used interchangeably on the City of San Diego's web site and in other sources and this can cause a great deal of confusion. Community Planning Groups are governed by their own bylaws and San Diego City Council Policy 600-24 which can be read here...

http://docs.sandiego.gov/councilpolicies/cpd_600-24.pdf

Article II, Section 1 outlines the purpose of Community Planning Groups...

"Community planning groups have been formed and recognized by the City Council to make recommendations to the City Council, Planning Commission, City staff and other governmental agencies on land use matters, specifically, concerning the preparation of, adoption of, implementation of, or amendment to, the General Plan or a land use plan when a plan relates to each recognized community planning group’s planning area boundaries. Planning groups also advise on other land use matters as requested by the City or other governmental agency."

The efforts by the Mira Mesa Planning Group to alter the neighborhood boundaries within the Community Planning Area and favor one neighborhood over another are clearly outside the scope of their charter from the City of San Diego. It is unfortunate that this has spilled over onto Wikipedia but the members of the Mira Mesa Planning Group have shown no hesitation in doing whatever they feel is necessary to expand the neighborhood boundaries of Mira Mesa by attempting to absorb the majority of the Sorrento Valley neighborhood. It seems that by editing these pages and adding signs they hope to perform a fait accompli. Hopefully, the community at large will prevent them from using Wikipedia to accomplish that goal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OpenTrackRacer (talk • contribs) 18:12, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * OK, I now see where you are both coming from. (Thank you for creating a userID, by the way.) I repeat the warning to you that I gave above to TedBrengel: Do not revert this again! The Wikipedia way is to discuss, reach consensus, and only then edit the article. I'll try to moderate that process.


 * I have some familiarity with these issues from my own community of Point Loma. Point Loma includes many neighborhoods which have their own articles but are also regarded as neighborhoods within the community of Point Loma. I understand that there is some resistance to including Sorrento Mesa within the community of Mira Mesa, even though it is under the Mira Mesa community pan. I have to tell you that the city-designated planning area maps generally take precedence over the police department maps, which may contain errors and are not official; they are just for the convenience of the police. However, they can provide insights. I see no reason why both maps couldn't be included with some explanatory text and a reference link. (If you keep uploading it without a link it will not stay.)


 * Let's work that out here on the talk page, and not do any more edits to the article for now. And in the meantime let's stay civil and work together to get the true situation into the article. OK? --MelanieN (talk) 18:27, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Definition of community
OK, I think we now understand the issue. It is not about maps, it is about the definition of a community. I have been thinking about this (I am also involved in community planning in San Diego) and I realized that the planning group is not always synonymous with the community. Sometimes they are pretty much synonymous, as for Ocean Beach. Sometimes the community planning group is a purely artificial construct, like Navajo or Uptown, where there is no corresponding community by that name. And sometimes, as in this case, there is a planning group and there is a community by the same name, but they may or may not have identical boundaries. In this case I think we cannot make the judgment (that would be original research which Wikipedia does not allow). Instead we need to somehow deal with the issue, and possibly the controversy, in the article itself. Let's start a conversation about how we should do that. For one thing I think we should include both maps, identified as to their source and what they portray. But again, let's not start adding things until we figure out how to do it. --MelanieN (talk) 19:05, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
I'm actually not the one making those edits. Passions are very inflamed on this issue and a lot of people are getting involved. Well, at least on the Sorrento Valley side. At the last few Mira Mesa Planning Group meetings where this issue was discussed, large numbers of Sorrento Valley residents turned out to oppose the annexation attempts but no Mira Mesa residents turned out to support it. The only people from Mira Mesa that seem to support this are members of the Mira Mesa Town Council, The Mira Mesa Community Planning Group, the Calle Cristobal Maintenance Assessment District and the Mira Mesa Maintenance Assessment District. Sadly, the major players are the same in all of those organizations.

The map that Ted keeps removing is straight from SanGIS. It was generated using ArcExplorer which was set to display the "Neighborhoods" layer. It is the official map of neighborhoods within the City of San Diego (which was also confirmed by the City Planning and Neighborhood Restoration Department). The map Ted keeps posting is the Mira Mesa Community map. This is the planning area map, not the neighborhood map. The validity of the planning area community maps are not in question. However, they are not neighborhood maps. They reflect Community Planning Areas only.

You mention Point Loma. There is actually no community called Point Loma. It's a colloquial term to describe the peninsula area. It's within the Peninsula Community Planning Area and contains neighborhoods such as Loma Portal, Fleetridge, La Playa, Sunset Ciffs and others. In fact, the Peninsula Community Planning Area web site states this very clearly...

http://www.sandiego.gov/planning/community/profiles/peninsula

The Peninsula Community Planning Area actively celebrates the diverse neighborhoods located within it's boundaries while the Mira Mesa Community Planning Area does not. Looking objectively, if the Mira Mesa Community Planning area was instead named something like the "North Miramar Community Planning Area" this whole issue would be a lot more simple to understand. The coincident names definitely cause confusion (and in the case of Mira Mesa, aspirations of grandeur). This theme is repeated all over the city.

The Wikipedia page in question is for the NEIGHBORHOOD of Mira Mesa. If Ted or anyone else wishes to create a page for the Community Planning Area of Mira Mesa that's fine (so long as it's factually correct). All one has to do is look at other Wikipedia San Diego Neighborhood plans to understand the difference. Take Serra Mesa for example...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serra_Mesa,_San_Diego

Serra Mesa is a Community Planning Area (that encompasses more than one neighborhood) and also a neighborhood. The Wikipedia neighborhood page is about just that, the neighborhood. Most people are concerned with neighborhoods, not community planning areas which have been established solely for land use purposes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OpenTrackRacer (talk • contribs) 19:22, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * What "annexation attempts" are you talking about? Who is attempting to annex what? Has the issue been reported anywhere? --MelanieN (talk) 19:29, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * P.S. You could give our hard-working bots a break if you would sign your comments. You can do that in one of two ways: Add four tildes ~ at the end of your comment (the tilde is the capitalization of the button at the far left of the number row on your keyboard), or else click on the button that looks like a signature - in the array of buttons above the edit window. Either of those actions will automatically sign and date your comments. --MelanieN (talk) 19:35, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * P.S. regarding that police neighborhood map: we need a link or we can't use it. The general police neighborhood map is here ; is there a link to the Mira Mesa section of the map that you wish to post? --MelanieN (talk) 19:45, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with OpenTrackRacer. I don't know of anyone would call the intersection of Mira Mesa Blvd and Lusk "Mira Mesa." The Serra Mesa example is a good one; Birdland,_San_Diego has prominent signs at the entrance identifying it as it's own neighborhood, but it falls under Serra Mesa planning. OhNo itsJamie  Talk 19:53, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Annexation
Sorry if I'm putting this in the wrong place. I don't see a clear way to add onto a previous heading (and my HTML skills are almost 20 years out of date).

The Mira Mesa Community Planning Group (seemingly along with the Mira Mesa Town Council) is trying to make the borders of the Mira Mesa neighborhood the same as the borders of the Mira Mesa Community Planning Area. They are asserting that they are one in the same. That assertion would expand the Mira Mesa Neighborhood to encompass the majority of the Sorrento Valley neighborhood (ie: annexation).

Ted Brengel makes this straw argument in the Mira Mesa Town Council (which is a Mira Mesa neighborhood organization and not "officially" affiliated with the Mira Mesa Community Planning Group... even though they share the same web site and many board members are the same in both organizations) June newsletter on page two...

http://www.miramesatowncouncil.org/doc/Newsletter/2013%20June%20Newsletter.pdf

Both Ted Brengel and Bari Vaz have also gone to great lengths to purport this same concept in comments on a San Diego Union Tribune article about new homes being built in Sorrento Valley...

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/Apr/13/tp-pardee-homes-releases-new-phase-at-sorrento

As I mentioned, there have been several contentions meetings of the Mira Mesa Planning Group recently and will be again at the next meeting in October when the group plans to vote on the issue (even though it's outside the scope of their charter and would only be a recommendation to the City of San Diego). There is an audio recording of public comments from the last meeting that can be made available if desired by the Wikipedia community.OpenTrackRacer (talk) 19:53, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I still don't understand what they are "trying to do", or who they are trying to get to do it. Their planning group boundaries are set by the city; they are not trying to get those changed, right? So who defines the neighborhoods, that they are trying to get changed? They will certainly not succeed if they want to eliminate any city references to Sorrento Valley, which is a well established and notable neighborhood. I would have thought the same is true of Sorrento Mesa, although the police department seems to lump it in with Sorrento Valley. --MelanieN (talk) 19:59, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Maps
The general San Diego Police neighborhood map linked above is the correct one. According to the City and SanGIS, it is the official map of neighborhoods within the City of San Diego. The neighborhood map isn't accessible from the interactive SanGIS map but a full SanGIS neighborhood map can be generated using ArcExplorer and posted if desired.

To reiterate, here is the statement sent by Michael Klein from the City of San Diego's Planning and Neighborhood Restoration Department...

"Neighborhoods are boundaries reflecting the perception of residents within a particular area. Neighborhoods often are contained within communities, although they may not be entirely within one community. In some community plans, neighborhoods are mapped in the plan as of the date of plan adoption. Because perception of neighborhood boundaries is more fluid than that of community boundaries, the Police Department conducts a periodic outreach to residents to identify any perceived shift in boundaries. Adjustments to neighborhood boundaries are made by the Police Department over time based on input provided by citizens and Police Department needs. Therefore, the Police Department is the City’s “keeper” of neighborhood boundaries." OpenTrackRacer (talk) 20:06, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I hadn't see that before. Thank you. Maybe I should tell them about the errors I know about! Anyhow I do think that Wikipedia articles tend to be about neighborhoods rather than planning areas. I continue to think there is a place for both maps in the article. I'll think about how to do that. --MelanieN (talk) 20:09, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * BTW do you have a link for that comment? Is it from some public source? Or was that some personal comment to you, such as via email? --MelanieN (talk) 20:10, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

What they're trying to do
They are not trying to change the planning area boundaries. They are trying to change the neighborhood boundaries of Mira Mesa to encompass the entire planning area (thus eliminating the vast majority of the Sorrento Valley neighborhood). Is essence, they are purporting that everything in the Mira Mesa Planning area is Mira Mesa (and putting up signage to support that position). Imagine if the Peninsula Planning Group tried to do the same thing in Point Loma!

They are attempting to define Sorrento Valley as only the area on the west side of Interstate 805. They have changed Google Maps and other alterable sources in an attempt to legitimize this effort. Most of the businesses and all of the residents who live in Sorrento Valley (in the Pacific Ridge, Wateridge, Sorrento Highlands and Sorrento Terrace developments) identify their neighborhood as being Sorrento Valley. Sorrento Mesa is a colloquial term for the business area around Qualcomm but the city does not recognize it as a neighborhood (and neither do the residents of Wateridge who live there).

Publicly available sources all consider the area indicated on the San Diego Neighborhood map as being Sorrento Valley, not Mira Mesa (with some minor boundary differences)...

http://www.trulia.com/for_sale/1343_nh/x_map

http://www.zillow.com/sorrento-valley-san-diego-ca

http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Sorrento-Valley-San-Diego-CA.html

http://www.pardeehomes.com/sorrento-valley

http://www.sorrentovalleyrealestate.org

http://www.sandiegorealestateagent.com/real-estate-guide/sorrento-valley.asp

The list goes on and on. Most of the hotels in the area show on their web pages that they are in Sorrento Valley and there are numerous business parks called "Sorrento xxxxx" in this area as well. The El Camino Cemetery and Chapel clearly states where they are located...

http://www.sorrentovalleychapel.com/

As for how, the answer is by any means possible. The Calle Cristobal Maintenance Assessment District requested to the Mira Mesa Community Planning Group a Mira Mesa monument sign at the west end of Mira Mesa Boulevard. They also requested Mira Mesa neighborhood signs which have been placed in Sorrento Valley (on Sorrento Valley Boulevard, just east of Vista Sorrento Parkway, on Lusk Boulevard, just east of Vista Sorrento Parkway, on Camino Santa Fe, just north of Miramar Road and on Camino Santa Fe, just south of Sorrento Valley Boulevard). The Calle Cristobal Maintenance Assessment District has two board members (including Ted Brengel) and both of them are also on the Mira Mesa Community Planing Group. The Mira Mesa Planning Group initially denied the whole thing and said they didn't know the how or why of the signs but they eventually admitted the truth. All of this and the Wikipedia and Google Maps edits are an attempt at a fait accompli which we assume they believe will help convince the City of San Diego to make these boundaries official. The Mira Mesa Town Council and Mira Mesa Community Planning Group are also well connected politically which aids their crusade.

The residents and businesses of Sorrento Valley are determined not to let this happen.OpenTrackRacer (talk) 20:36, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Community vs Neighborhood
The question that we have been debating these past days though is not one of neighborhoods and their right to exist. To me that is beyond question. People can call the area in which they live anything they choose. No, the question here is about the notion that Mira Mesa has somehow suddenly, after 35 years of existence as a community, become a neighborhood. My answer, as you might guess is a resounding no. Mira Mesa is a community comprised of a number of disparate neighborhoods. This is not just an opinion. In studying the City documents relevant to that issue (if indeed it is an issue anywhere else on the planet) over many years I have learned that the San Diego General Plan and the thirty-five or so community plans that comprise it define community boundaries in San Diego. If I, like my adversary wished to create a cloud of confusion, I would trot out many other documents that bear on this issue. Documents such as the San Diego City Charter, The Mira Public Facilities Financing Plan, Facilities Benefit Assessment Plans, the Calle Cristobal and Mira Mesa Maintenance Assessment Districts, the San Diego Municipal code, Council Policy 600-5, and a number of others. I won't do that though because the one superseding document in the case of community boundaries is the San Diego General Plan and its community plans. To refer to other documents is merely throwing up a cloud of confusion.

The argument that changing the boundaries would "annex" some portion of the community is incomprehensible to me as is the notion that we are somehow changing the boundaries of our shared community. The community of Mira Mesa existed many years before any of the homes in the area in question were even planned and those boundaries haven't changed in well over twenty years. We (whoever this mysterious imperious "we" may be) aren't changing anything with regard to community boundaries and haven't for over twenty years.

Consensus is generally a good thing. It makes us all feel like members of the same team. It helps us to pull together toward a common goal. But false consensus, agreement among members of a group that things that simply aren't true are established facts, is not good. This is called groupthink. And that's kind of where we are with this. The people in Sorrento Valley have somehow convinced themselves that if they round up enough documents they can somehow trump the City General Plan and make Mira Mesa a neighborhood with Camino Santa Fe as its eastern boundary. That's akin to arguing that the earth is flat. Even in this enlightened age you may get many followers, but that won’t deflate the globe. So I will support all efforts to achieve consensus, provided that the facts being debated are taken only from authoritative relevant documents. And, frankly, with regard to community boundaries in San Diego the only authoritative relevant document is The San Diego General Plan. These facts can be verified in a matter of minutes by consulting the references I cited.

Once again for emphasis, no one is doing anything to the Mira Mesa community boundaries that have existed exactly as they are today for many years. All claims to the contrary are simply incorrect.

So what “they” are trying to do is NOTHING. TedBrengel (talk) 21:50, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Ted Brengel
 * The article is about the neighborhood, not the planning zone. Sorrento Valley, San Diego is its own neighborhood within the planning boundaries of Mira Mesa, just as Birdland,_San_Diego is a neighborhood within the planning boundaries of Serra Mesa. OhNo itsJamie  Talk 23:13, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm on my way out to a meeting so I'll just quickly summarize what I am getting from all this - based on authoritative Reliable Sources rather than anyone's say-so, and without getting Wikipedia involved in what appears to be a turf war.
 * The city of San Diego defines a "community" as the area included in a planning area.
 * The city of San Diego defines a "neighborhood" as what is recognized by the people who live/work there, and is roughly reflected by the police neighborhood maps.
 * A community can, and usually does, include multiple neighborhoods.
 * Wikipedia tends to write articles about neighborhoods rather than communities.
 * It is clear that the NEIGHBORHOOD of Mira Mesa does not encompass the entire COMMUNITY (i.e. planning area) of Mira Mesa.

I'll try to find language for the article later when I have more time; I'm pretty good at finding wording that everyone can agree on. And I do think we can find a way to include both maps. --MelanieN (talk) 00:54, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I think separate pages would be more appropriate since the community of Mira Mesa and the neighborhood of Mira Mesa are two different things.OpenTrackRacer (talk) 01:18, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Communities are not neighborhoods and neighborhoods are not communities
The assertion that Mira Mesa exists solely as a "community" and not as a neighborhood is laughable. San Diego is a city comprised of neighborhoods. Neighborhoods are part of one or more Community Planning Areas which exist for land use purposes and have Community Planning Groups which advise the city in that regard. Oftentimes, the terms neighborhood and community are used interchangeably to describe an area within a city. However, in the City of San Diego they have two distinctive meanings.

If what Ted Brengel is asserting were correct, there would be no Loma Portal, Roseville, Sunset Cliffs, La Playa or Roseville neighborhoods, only the community of Peninsula. There would be no Grantville, Allied Gardens, Del Cerro or San Carlos neighborhoods, only the community of Navajo. There would be no Birdland, only the community of Serra Mesa (not even the neighborhood of Serra Mesa). You get the idea. According to Ted, the structure of all the other neighborhoods and communities in San Diego are incorrect and only Mira Mesa is correct.

If you extend Ted's logic, there would be no San Diego or Carlsbad or Encinitas or Del Mar, only the County of San Diego, which as we know, encompasses all of these areas and has clearly defined borders.

The Wikipedia page in question is about neighborhoods in San Diego of which Mira Mesa is one, as is Sorrento Valley. If Ted would like to create a page for the Community of Mira Mesa (which again, exists for land use purposes) he's more than welcome to do so and I'm sure no one will mind, so long as he sticks to the facts.OpenTrackRacer (talk) 01:15, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Draft
OK, let's quit the bickering and see if we can't come up with a Wikipedia article. How about something like this:

Mira Mesa is a neighborhood and community in the city of San Diego, California. The city-recognized Mira Mesa Community Plan Area is roughly bounded by Interstate 15 on the east, Interstate 805 on the west, the Los Peñasquitos Canyon on the north and Marine Corps Air Station Miramar on the south. Most of the community plan area is referred to as Mira Mesa; the community plan area also includes the neighborhoods of Sorrento Valley and Sorrento Mesa.

The Mira Mesa neighborhood, as defined by the San Diego Police Department's neighborhood map, is roughly bounded by Interstate 15 to the east, Camino Santa Fe to the west, the Los Peñasquitos Canyon to the north and Marine Corps Air Station Miramar to the south.

And we would include both maps, with one labeled "The Mira Mesa Community Planning Area" and the other labeled "The Mira Mesa neighborhood". --MelanieN (talk) 03:14, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I believe it's more appropriate to have one page for the community of Mira Mesa and a separate page for the neighborhood of Mira Mesa. That would seem to fit in better with the current format for neighborhoods and allow for other Community Planning Areas to also be added with the correct references. Combining the pages would likely be confusing. It might be best to ignore the fact that the Community Planning Area and one of the neighborhoods within it have the same name and approach it more like the Navajo, Serra Mesa or Peninsula Community Planning Areas.

Also, according to the official neighborhood map, the Mira Mesa Community Planning Area encompases three neighboroods... Mira Mesa, Sorrento Valley and Miramar. Sorrento Mesa is not recognized as a neighborhood and the majority of the businesses in the area identify as being in Sorrento Valley. Is is also true for the residents of the area who live in the Wateridge complex.

Thanks for your constructive comments and assistance with this!OpenTrackRacer (talk) 03:31, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * First, there is nothing wrong with combining several meanings of a term in one article. Consider my own favorite Good Article, Point Loma, San Diego, which says in the lead that "The term "Point Loma" is used to describe both the neighborhood and the peninsula."


 * Second, I missed Miramar, San Diego; it appears that it does include a little piece of the Mira Mesa Planning Area; it could be added.


 * Third, I disagree about Sorrento Mesa. In a quick web search, businesses that describe themselves as being in Sorrento Mesa (without a mention of either Sorrento Valley or Mira Mesa) include:


 * Qualcomm
 * Karl Strauss Brewery Gardens
 * Sharp Rees-Stealy
 * Irvine Company


 * Places described by a Reliable Source as being in Sorrento Mesa, withoug any mention of either Sorrento Valley or Mira Mesa, include:


 * the FBI building
 * Office building


 * There is no doubt that Sorrento Mesa is a real neighborhood, regardless of whether or not it is listed on the police map. --MelanieN (talk) 07:01, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I see your point about Sorrento Mesa but I'm not sure how you handle something like that. At what point to colloquial names override official designations? Take La Jolla Shores for example. It's a well known area (besides being a beach and park), like Sorrento Mesa, but it's not a neighborhood recognized by the city. It has a Wikipedia page but it's not part of the neighborhood group of pages...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Jolla_Shores

If you search for real estate or demographics, most results default back to Sorrento Valley (and I didn't find any demographics or statistics like crime were specifically for Sorrento Mesa). Also, the only people that actually live in the Sorrento Mesa area are in Wateridge and they consider themselves to be in Sorrento Valley. The links I've found referring to the development also peg it as being in Sorrento Valley...

http://wateridgecondos.com

http://www.sorrentovalleyrealestate.org/Wateridge.html

http://wateridgetownhomes.com

Maybe Sorrento Mesa should be treated in the same way as someplace like La Jolla Shores? A Wikipedia page but not part of the neighborhoods page? There are probably other examples but I'm drawing a blank right now.

With regard to the neighborhood and community of Mira Mesa, since they have different borders, demographics, zip codes, etc., putting them on one page is confusing and unnecessary. You gave the example of Point Loma but that's different. Point Loma is a colloquial term for the whole peninsula but there is no specific neighborhood called Point Loma or a community called Point Loma. Again, the neighborhood of Mira Mesa and the community of Mira Mesa, which are different but have the same name is the big sticking point for me. This has obviously caused a great deal of confusion already with many, many people.

Even though it's listed under neighborhoods, something like the Navajo Community Wikipedia page is what I think of when I'm talking about a Mira Mesa community page...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo,_San_Diego

The key there is that the community doesn't share the same name as any of the neighborhoods within it.

I wish other people would chime in with their thoughts on how to organize this too! OpenTrackRacer (talk) 17:34, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * You asked: At what point to colloquial names override official designations? That's very simple: Wikipedia uses the names used by Reliable Sources, not necessarily the "official" name. See WP:Common name. Sorrento Mesa is a name very clearly established by Reliable Sources.
 * I too would like to hear from a few more people here, particularly a few uninvolved people. I continue to think there is no problem with including the Community Planning Area and the neighborhood on the same page, as is done for many if not most San Diego communities. --MelanieN (talk) 17:45, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

I understand reliable sources but what do you do if there are sources to support both options? Regardless, I think Sorrento Mesa certainly deserves a page but not necessarily as a neighborhood.

Can you post some examples of pages for San Diego Community Planning Areas on Wikipedia? I found Najavo but every other one I've looked at so far talks about neighborhoods (which isn't surprising since most communities and neighborhoods share the same name and boundaries). OpenTrackRacer (talk) 18:30, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * First, let's understand that we are NOT talking here about the neighborhood dispute in your area. That's another matter, to be settled in a different forum by different rules. What we are talking about here is a Wikipedia article: how to make it stable, fair, and accurate under Wikipedia's rules. For that reason I would much prefer to be talking here about what wording to use in the lead of the Mira Mesa article - not engaging in a philosophical debate about neighborhoods and communities, much less trying to moderate the dispute in your neighborhood. I have proposed some language above; can we discuss it?


 * But with that said, you asked some questions and made some comments, and I'll try to answer them. First, I think Sorrento Mesa certainly deserves a page but not necessarily as a neighborhood. Huh? OF COURSE Sorrento Mesa is a neighborhood - just as Bankers Hill (Uptown planning area) or Shelter Island (Peninsula planning area) is a neighborhood. If Sorrento Mesa isn't a neighborhood, what is it, for heavens sake? Of course it is. That's just silly.


 * Second, I can't think of any other Wikipedia articles about a Community Planning Area, except for Navajo - and that article was created by someone trying to make a point in a move discussion if I remember correctly. Articles here are almost universally about neighborhoods, not community planning areas, for a very simple reason: neighborhoods tend to be notable, that is, to receive significant coverage from independent reliable sources. Planning groups receive very little press coverage compared to neighborhoods, and Wikipedia articles depend on having received coverage - so the articles are about neighborhoods. The article usually mentions what CPG the neighborhood belongs to, but articles about CPGs per se are pretty much nonexistent.


 * Third, I don't think it's true that "most communities and neighborhoods share the same name and boundaries". I would say that is the exception rather than the rule. There are some communities (that is, CPGs) that are pretty much synonymous with one neighborhood - Ocean Beach comes to mind, or Barrio Logan - but the majority of CPGs contain multiple neighborhoods, one of which may share the name with the CPG (for example Clairemont Mesa CPG which includes Clairemont Mesa and Bay Park, or Serra Mesa CPB which includes Serra Mesa and Birdland), or the CPG name may be unrelated to any neighborhood (such as Peninsula, Uptown and Navajo). --MelanieN (talk) 00:34, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Melanie. I am definitely not trying to debate the merits or facts of the neighborhood dispute. That will get settled elsewhere. My goal is to make sure the information on Wikipedia is correct and that is my ONLY goal.

Bankers Hill is an official neighborhood (and has a Wikipedia page off the "Neighborhoods of San Diego" index at the bottom of all the individual neighborhood pages). Shelter Island is not an official neighborhood (and it's Wikipedia page is not on the "Neighborhoods of San Diego" index at the bottom of all the individual neighborhood pages). Shelter Island is a place, just like La Jolla Shores, Mt. Soledad and yes, Sorrento Mesa. Not all places are neighborhoods.

Here's the official San Diego neighborhood map from SanGIS...

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SanGISNeighborhoodMap.jpg

We've talked about reliable sources and you posted six supporting Sorrento Mesa. But that's the problem with reliable sources... here are six that support the exact same area as Sorrento Valley (including two that are directly contradictory to what you'd linked...  the FBI and Qualcomm)...


 * Bank of America in Sorrento Valley


 * Chicken of the Sea in Sorrento Valley


 * Irwin Jacobs Qualcomm Hall in Sorrento Valley


 * FBI moves into new Sorrento Valley HQ


 * Sorrento Valley Optometric Center


 * Opera Patisserie in Sorrento Valley

In addition, as I posted before, the only residents that actually live in the area are in Wateridge and they identify themselves as living in Sorrento Valley, not Sorrento Mesa. Sorrento Mesa is an area in Sorrento Valley just like La Jolla Shores is an area in La Jolla and Shelter Island as an area in Point Loma and the Wikipedia pages should reflect that properly (and the existing La Jolla Shores and Shelter Island pages do).

I was finally able to produce a SanGIS map that overlays the CPG boundaries with the neighborhood boundaries (instead of trying to compare the two separate maps) and you are correct. There are a large number of neighborhoods withing many single CPG boundaries. Navajo seems to be the only one with it's own Wikipedia page but I think the Mira Mesa CPG should also have it's own page, separate from the neighborhood page. As I said earlier, the Mira Mesa CPG has totally different demographics compared to the neighborhood of Mira Mesa. Having both sets of facts and figures on the same page would be very confusing. The boundaries are different, as are things like the land area, population, density, income, zip codes, fire department stations and more. There is no clean way to have both on the same page and it's unnecessary to do so. I think we should use the Navajo page as a template for the Mira Mesa CPG page and convert the current Mira Mesa page (which has demographics and facts for the neighborhood, not the CPG) back to the neighborhood page it was before the recent edits. OpenTrackRacer (talk) 03:27, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I was following this conversation and I would like to add my thoughts on the issues. I think Mira Mesa Community should have a separate page from the Mira Mesa Neighborhood. All of the statistics and a lot of the facts would be different between a neighborhood and a planing area in this case. Having a map of the planing area, as well as the neighborhood map should not be a problem. It should be included with the statement that the Mira Mesa neighborhood is a part of Mira Mesa Planing Community. As far as Sorrento Mesa goes, I think everyone knows where the area approximately is. However, I was not able to find a map defining it's borders. Thus, I think, it is a locally identifiable area within another neighborhood.TooManyPets (talk) 05:14, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Reply to both of you: Looks like there is yet another local issue intruding here, namely, Sorrento Valley vs. Sorrento Mesa. That is irrelevant here; this is the Mira Mesa article. Let's leave the SV-SM issue to be determined elsewhere. As far as this article goes, regardless of whether SM and SV are the same neighborhood or different neighborhoods, it appears they are NOT part of the Mira Mesa neighborhood (as opposed to the Mira Mesa community planning area). This article is about the Mira Mesa neighborhood, and IMO the top-of-the-page map should reflect that (thus using the map based on the police neighborhoods map, and referenced to that map). This article is also about the MM CPA, as most Wikipedia articles about neighborhoods are, and I tried to make that clear in my proposed lead sentence. A map of the CPA could also be included, as I recommended. (I really feel the land use map is out of place here and should be removed; I'm not aware of any other Wikipedia article that includes the community land use map.) In my proposed draft I made it clear that the article is about both the community (which includes SV and SM) and the neighborhood (which does not). If someone wants to make a separate article (not sure what you would call it) about the Mira Mesa Community Planning Area, they can go ahead and try; that's what our Sandboxes are for, to design articles. Wikipedia consensus will eventually decide whether the CPA deserves a standalone page or should be merged back to this article. I don't personally see the point of splitting off the page, but if it will help resolve the edit warring here and somebody is willing to write it, it's worth a try. Is there consensus to split out the CPA and make this article be just about the neighborhood, and rewrite my proposed draft to reflect that? Is someone willing to write the CPA article? --MelanieN (talk) 14:38, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

You're absolutely correct. We are talking about the Mira Mesa neighborhood page so all the Sorrento Mesa talk is indeed best left for discussions about that page.

If the page is setup for Mira Mesa, a neighborhood of San Diego then I think it's fine. The sidebar map and statistics should all be made accurate for the neighborhood as well as the factual details in the article itself. A mention that the neighborhood is part of the Mira Mesa Community Planning Area with a map to show it's boundaries would be appropriate to add in the body. If Ted or anyone else is determined to have a Mira Mesa Community page then they can go and create something and I'd suggest using the Navajo page as a template.

Thanks again for your help!OpenTrackRacer (talk) 16:27, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi MelanieN, I think your wording and inclusion of both maps is very reasonable. 75.80.59.224 (talk) 18:23, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Ideas on the Draft
I believe that it is quite simple to draw a map showing the Lopez Ridge area (a geographic name) and the area around Wateridge as a single contiguous neighborhood. I also don't think that anyone would have a problem with that. But know well that though it is not necessary to advertise the fact, Sorrento Mesa, and Sorrento Valley, along with the Village and probably a few others are neighborhoods within the Community of Mira Mesa. The distinction in this case is that Mira Mesa has a great many resources that are absolutely required to support a population while Sorrento Valley and Sorrento Mesa have none. They have only homes and businesses. That's precisely why, after the building chaos of the sixties, the community of Mira Mesa was formed and a plan was created both to control the insanity and to insure that the resources required to support the people living here are provided.

Parks are one example of a resource that is in very short supply all over San Diego. Mira Mesa is no exception. We are currently 80 acres short of the City mandate for park space. I agree that adding the neighborhoods west of Camino Santa Fe to the Mira Mesa map many years ago in no way helped this problem, but to somehow annex any of that area outside of Mira Mesa does not serve the residents either as there is no open space there that might be used as a park. Anyone who would like to help address this problem may do so by joining the Mira Mesa Recreation Council.

Schools are yet another example. Mira Mesa public schools are among the best in the county. But as is the case with parks Sorrento Valley and Sorrento Mesa have neither schools nor any open space where one could be built.

I would like to suggest that the Sorrento Valley-Sorrento Mesa distinction is one that can be argued forever with no difference in any of the possible results. Many of us in Mira Mesa have called the area north or Carroll Canyon and South of Lopez Canyon Sorrento Mesa for many years. That said, I don't think there is anything official about that nor does it really matter. If you use a name to refer to a place and others understand what you mean when you use that name then conversation can take place. That's really all that is required. And that's my view on Sorrento Valley. The area originally known as Sorrento Valley is in the Torrey Pines Planning Area, but since it adjoins the newer area that the residents want to call by the same name and since there seems to be no objection from the Torrey Pines Planning Group, I don't see a problem with the name at all. In summary I think that we all support the notion that their is a area known as Sorrento Valley. Where we disagree is the notion that somehow a community such as Mira Mesa can be characterized as a neighborhood. Here in San Diego, and I think in most places, neighborhood is generally a subarea of a community (though there are certainly cases where neighborhoods span several communities). For a place to be called a community and be so classified by the San Diego General Plan, resources such as schools and parks are a requirement.

The map entitled City of San Diego Police Neighborhoods dated 9/17/2011 that has been referenced several times on this talk page is very real, but it is not what many seem to believe it is. Its creation corresponds to the formation of the Northwestern Division of the San Diego Police Department. The newly formed Northwestern Division subdivided the assigned area into what they call neighborhoods. The areas shown in red on the map are those of the Southwestern Division while those shown in purple are areas assigned to the officers of the Northeastern Division. From the police department perspective these are neighborhoods because they are the beats use in assigning patrols. Each of them is sufficiently contiguous to allow a police vehicle to patrol without using limited access highways. The use of that map beyond that purpose is a bit problematic.

The reason those who have lived in this area for over thirty years make the distinction between the area north of Lopez Canyon and that to its south is that there is a vast difference in land use, a difference so replete that the notion that face-to-face social interactions occur[ing] (as mentioned in the Wikipedia article on Neighborhood) is clearly incorrect. But if we accept this Police Department definition of Sorrento Valley (which serves the Police Department quite well) as the name for that entire area then in casual conversation, whenever the name "Sorrento Valley" is used one will have to wonder whether the speaker is referring to the residential area on Lopez Ridge to the north, the area south of Lopez Canyon that is home to hundreds of high tech companies, the area south of that in Carroll Canyon (which is currently being planned) which will one day include office buildings and industrial facilities, or the area just north of MCAS Miramar that is heavily industrialized. Those areas have historically been called "Lopez Ridge", "Sorrento Mesa", "Carroll Canyon (Stone Creek Project)", and "Miramar Area" (respectively). Calling all of those areas "Sorrento Valley" serves no useful purpose. On the other hand if those living on Lopez Ridge wish that area to be called Sorrento Valley I think people will start to know the area by that name. So, I agree that the Police Department Neighborhoods Map could be used on Wikipedia, but it should be identified as a police department tool and not a description of neighborhoods as loosely defined here in Wikipedia (Neighborhood).

TedBrengel (talk) 12:51, 20 September 2013 (UTC)Ted Brengel


 * So I take it you are in agreement with the language in my proposed draft, which makes it clear that the Mira Mesa community (i.e. CPA) includes the neighborhood of Mira Mesa as well the other neighborhoods? Can we all please skip all the speeches and concentrate on how to write the article? --MelanieN (talk) 14:43, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Absolutely, in the sense of the definition of "neighborhood" that I cited and provided that the boundaries of the neighborhood of Mira Mesa are precisely the same as those of the community of Mira Mesa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TedBrengel (talk • contribs) 20:19, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Apparently you didn't read my proposed draft. It defines the community of Mira Mesa as the community plan area, and the neighborhood of Mira Mesa roughly according to the police neighborhood map. I think it is going to have to be done that way. Please realize that this has no bearing on your Real Life neighborhood issues; this is according to the rules of Wikipedia. We are an encyclopedia and we have guidelines. One of them is that you don't get to make up a definition of something (such as "neighborhood") and then apply it to the article; that is called WP:Original research and it is not allowed here; we base our articles on what WP:Reliable sources say. Note that Reliable Sources are not limited to official sources. Another rule is that we use the WP:Common name of a place, which may not be the same as the official name. A neighborhood is determined by what Reliable Sources call it and by what the people who live, work or own property there call it. It's clear that the western portion of the Mira Mesa planning area is not called Mira Mesa by Reliable Sources or by the businesses that operate there, so it can't be included as part of the Mira Mesa neighborhood here, even if the city or local agencies define it as such. The official designation is a matter to be determined offline. We are just writing an encyclopedia article here. --MelanieN (talk) 23:08, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

I totally agree with Melanie. We can argue semantics forever, but her draft follows the wikipedia rules and reflects the reality. TooManyPets (talk) 03:44, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Resolution
I went ahead and made the changes as per my draft. This article is now explicitly about both the community and the neighborhood. If anyone wants to make a separate article about the Community Planning Area, they are welcome to try, but I personally don't see the point. Any further discussion here should be about the article, not arguing about the neighborhood disputes that led to the edit warring. Thanks for your input, all. --MelanieN (talk) 14:49, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry Melanie but I don't think the changes make sense. Having the page be for the community and neighborhood of Mira Mesa is fine if done correctly. However, it isn't and it's confusing. The median income shown is for the neighborhood. The zip codes shown are for the community. The total area is for the community. The population is for the neighborhood. The police information is for the neighborhood. The fire information is for the community. You get the idea. The two may share part of the same land area and borders but they are different and all the details about them except the name is different. As you already said, people identify with neighborhoods, not community planning areas. The page should be about the neighborhood and also mention that it's within the community.

Also, there may be a San Diego Police neighborhood map but there is also an official SanGIS map of neighborhoods based off it (that I posted before). The neighborhoods are not "Neighborhoods as defined by the San Diego Police", they are the officially recognized neighborhoods within the City of San Diego. That goes for EVERY neighborhood so the specific reference here is misleading. Mira Mesa is a neighborhood and the map is the official map of neighborhoods. It's also supported by reliable sources. The constant "Police" qualification is unnecessary and misleading.

As I said before, there needs to be two pages. Pages for other neighborhoods have managed this just fine...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Gardens,_San_Diego

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Hills,_San_Diego

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillcrest,_San_Diego

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serra_Mesa,_San_Diego

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Vista,_San_Diego

All of these are within a Community. Some share the same name as the community (Linda Vista, which also includes Morena and Serra Mesa, which also includes Birdland). All of them have information for the neighborhood, including the ones that mention the community.

The neighborhood of Mira Mesa should have primacy on the Wikipedia page like every other neighborhood. More information about the community can be placed on a separate page, like Navajo. You wouldn't have a single page for both the City and the County of San Diego would you? No, and we don't...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_County

They share the same name and some of the same land area and borders, just like the neighborhood and community of Mira Mesa. But, just like the neighborhood and community of Mira Mesa, they are DIFFERENT things.

OpenTrackRacer (talk) 17:50, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * If you think there should be a separate article for the community, you are free to write one. For now, the consensus here seems to be that both the community and the neighborhood have information worthy of being in a Wikipedia article. There is currently no place else to put it.


 * If some of the information is for the neighborhood and some for the community, that can be sorted out within the article.


 * The neighborhood map I believe this is maplet is based on, is titled ""City of San Diego Police Neighborhoods 09/17/2011," and that web page is provided as a reference link in the article. So identifying its source as the police seems appropriate IMO. If you would provide a link to that SanGIS site, we can evaluate it and see what it is based on; if it is a Reliable source we could possibly change the caption to reflect its source. Actually I have asked several times for that link, but you haven't supplied it; that is why I used the police map, which I can see and evaluate (and which seems to be identical to this neighborhood map in any case). We can't use a map whose source or reliability is unclear. --MelanieN (talk) 20:31, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Correction: actually when I said you haven't supplied a link, I was mistaken. It's just that you haven't supplied any link other than the police map. In your very first edit here you said "According to the City of San Diego, the official map of neighborhoods is maintained and updated by the San Diego Police Department. A copy of the map can be seen here... http://www.sandiego.gov/police/pdf/2011policecitywidemap.pdf"


 * You then went on to talk about SanGIS, which you say is "based off" the police map. The only map link you have provided is the police one, and you have asserted that it is the basis for the neighborhood map. That's why it's proper for us identify the source of this map as the San Diego Police Department. We have to attribute it to someone; we can't just pull it out of the air. --MelanieN (talk) 21:29, 21 September 2013 (UTC)



Hi Melanie. It sounds like you missed the other map I posted on the 20th. It was just a link and with so much going on it would be easy to do! I'd be happy to help make a community page and also clean up the Mira Mesa neighborhood page. However, my Wikipedia editing skills stink. Is there a way to copy an existing page or is there a template than can be used? Thanks! OpenTrackRacer (talk) 23:02, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the image. It does say "SanGIS" as part of the jpg so that shows that it came from SanGIS, although there is no direct postable link to SanGIS. References don't have to be available online as long as they are verifiable. However, there IS a direct postable link for the police site, and since the SanGIS map is admittedly based on the police map (identical to it in fact), I still think we should say it is coming from the police. The neighborhood boundaries are controversial, so we need a clear indication of where we are getting our information - just as we indicate that the community boundaries are coming from the community plan. Seriously, OpenTrackRacer, you are allowing your partisanship to affect your approach here. Please realize that you are not going to be able to dictate how this article looks. TedBrengel can't either. Our articles have to be neutral and verifiable.
 * There is information about how to make a page at WP:WELCOME and also at WP:Your first article. I will not be able to help you with it due to Real Life time constraints - and also because I don't think a separate page is a good idea. If some of the information in the article refers only to "Community of Mira Mesa" or "Neighborhood of Mira Mesa" I think we should simply say so. But you can try the separate page approach and see if it makes things better or worse. Do it in your Sandbox (look for the button at the top of the page), where you have all the time in the world and nobody hassling you. When you are satisfied it is ready, you move it into the main encyclopedia (we say, moving from userspace to mainspace). When that happens, there will be other Wikipedia editors (not me; I will recuse myself) who will evaluate it and decide if it should stay as an article or not. Don't remove anything from this article until the new article has passed muster. --MelanieN (talk) 16:36, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * BTW, although you keep insisting that the SanGIS information is "official" (and keep in mind that "official" doesn't necessarily settle the matter at Wikipedia), the actual SanGIS website says "Disclaimer: The SanGIS Interactive Map data and tools are provided only for the user's convenience and no warranty is made as to the accuracy of the data. The user must read and be aware of the full use disclaimer. Please read the SanGIS Legal Notice prior to using the SanGIS Interactive Map."
 * IMO this is yet another reason to attribute this map to its actual source: the San Diego Police Department.--MelanieN (talk) 22:17, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070501022156/http://www.miramesa.com/content/mira_mesa_history.php to http://www.miramesa.com/content/mira_mesa_history.php
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111224023747/http://www.chargers.com/community/community-foundation/community-quarterback-award.html to http://www.chargers.com/community/community-foundation/community-quarterback-award.html
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Uncited material in need of citations
I am moving the following uncited material here until it can be properly supported with inline citations of reliable, secondary sources, per WP:V, WP:CS, WP:IRS, WP:PSTS, WP:BLP, WP:NOR, et al. This diff shows where it was in the article. Nightscream (talk) 18:13, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

History
Around the time of World War II the area now called Mira Mesa was used by the United States Army as a test area. Just west of U.S. Route 395 (now Interstate 15) was a Navy auxiliary landing field, known locally as Hourglass Field because the layout of the runways was a single piece of asphalt in the shape of an hourglass. The Navy also used the surrounding area as a bombing range.

Starting in 1969 there was a housing boom in the area that now extends from the I-15 freeway in the east to I-805 in the west and is approximately 10,500 acres (42 km2). This was one of the earliest areas of urban sprawl along the I-15 Corridor. Hourglass Field became the site of San Diego Miramar College and Hourglass Field Community Park. The area was built so quickly that it lacked schools, shopping centers, or other services for its thousands of residents. In 1971 Pete Wilson started his political career running for mayor with the slogan "No more Mira Mesas!" as a promise to stop quick, unplanned growth in San Diego.

Since its inception, Mira Mesa was largely influenced by the military located at the adjacent NAS Miramar. Mira Mesa was the northernmost "real community" of San Diego, and was separated from the rest of the city by NAS Miramar for many years. For nearly 30 years the Navy's Top Gun School was located here, and most of the pilots made their homes in Mira Mesa.

By the late 1990s, the Mira Mesa area had undergone extensive expansion to accommodate the thousands of new residents attracted by its proximity to major employers like UC San Diego, MCAS Miramar, Qualcomm, and dozens of biotech and pharmaceutical companies. Several commercial and industrial centers have been built within the Mira Mesa area.

Mira Mesa has a significant concentration of Asian-American residents. Their presence has added to the diverse shopping available in Mira Mesa, including grocery and shops offered mainly by Filipino and Vietnamese people.

Demographics
According to the 2010 Census the ethnic demographic breakdown of Mira Mesa was as follows: Asian 44.3%, White (not Hispanic or Latino) 31.8%, Hispanic or Latino 13.6%, African American/Black 4.8%, Native Hawaiian and other Pacific Islander 0.8%, and Native American 0.5%.

Economy
The community has business and residential zoned areas, providing shopping and recreational opportunities as well as business buildings with technology facilities and office space. It offers a variety of ethnic cuisines and restaurants, as well as more traditional dining. There are a total of twelve parks; two are community parks and ten are neighborhood parks. There are also teen and senior centers, an ice arena, an aquatic complex, multiple shopping centers, and a state-of-the-art movie theater.

Arts and culture

 * On the Fourth of July, a parade runs through town on Mira Mesa Boulevard, then turns on Camino Ruiz. A Family Fun Day follows in the Mira Mesa Community Park with games, booths and rides for children. In the evening a fireworks display is accompanied by music from the radio station KyXy 96.5. The fireworks are located at Mira Mesa Senior High School.
 * Halloween is celebrated at the Mira Mesa Gil Johnson Recreation Center.
 * On Thursday evenings, groups of motorcycle riders gather just off of Mira Mesa Boulevard (in the Smart & Final/Home Depot shopping center). This is known as "Mira Mesa Bike Night" (MMBN) and is typically a fairly large gathering, attracting over 100 bikers during warm-weather months.

Sports

 * The Mira Mesa Rugby Team is a non profit team of fellow ruggers that meet every Tuesday Wednesday and Thursday at the recreation center.

Transportation
Public transportation is provided by the San Diego Transit and the Metropolitan Transit System, through buses and DART (Direct Access to Regional Transit) shuttles.

A train station serves Mira Mesa in Sorrento Valley and is served by the Coaster commuter train, of the North County transit district. The Coaster links Mira Mesa to Downtown San Diego, and north to coastal communities like Solana Beach and Oceanside.

Main highways include Interstates 805 and 15.

Main thoroughfares

 * Mira Mesa Boulevard runs east to west, and is the main road through Mira Mesa. It is an important link between Interstates 15 and 805. Before the completion of State Route 56, which runs parallel to and north of Mira Mesa Boulevard, the street carried a heavy volume of traffic and was considered one of the most congested streets in the city.
 * Camino Ruiz is a north–south four-lane thoroughfare that runs the whole length of the Mira Mesa area, and links Miramar Road to Mira Mesa Boulevard, to Calle Cristobal. It is a main thoroughfare for military personnel traveling to and from MCAS Miramar and the surrounding area.
 * Camino Santa Fe is a north–south four-lane thoroughfare that runs the whole length of the Mira Mesa area, and links Miramar Road to Mira Mesa Boulevard, to Calle Cristobal/Sorrento Valley Boulevard.
 * Black Mountain Road is a north–south thoroughfare that connects the more southerly portions of San Diego to Mira Mesa, and continues on to Rancho Peñasquitos and Del Mar.
 * Calle Cristobal runs east to west, along the northern perimeter of Mira Mesa, through the Los Peñasquitos Canyon.
 * Sorrento Valley Boulevard becomes Calle Cristobal at its intersection with Camino Santa Fe.

Notable people

 * Adam Brody, television actor; attended Wangenheim Middle School in Mira Mesa, then Scripps Ranch High School
 * Nate Chandler, National Football League player; attended Mira Mesa High School
 * Chris Chelios, former National Hockey League player; alternate captain of US hockey team; attended Mira Mesa High School and Mt. Carmel High School
 * Teyo Johnson, National Football League player; attended Mira Mesa High School
 * Jamie Kime, Grammy Award–winning guitarist and member of Zappa Plays Zappa; attended Mira Mesa High School
 * Michael Pittman, National Football League player; attended Mira Mesa High School
 * Ray Rowe, National Football League player; attended Mira Mesa High School
 * J. R. Tolver, National Football League player; attended Mira Mesa High School
 * Damien Williams, National Football League player; attended Mira Mesa High School