Talk:Miracle at the Meadowlands

Comments
To the anonymous AOL editor who added that stuff about the Chiefs: It's nice but unfortunately doesn't really fit, since all those plays involve stupid penalties after the play that gave defeated teams a chance to win.

It'd be a nice thing to put in an article about football penalties, which we don't yet seem to have, though. Daniel Case 05:39, 28 February 2006 (UTC) Just let the reader know, whoever typed this up failed to finish it...Ranma9617 06:49, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Forget the last comment, I didn't realize that an anon vandal deleted most of the article... ^^;;;;Ranma9617 06:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

The Fumble
Should Something be added in reference to "The Fumble" as it's more popularly known (88 AFC championship game Broncos v. Browns) at the point where it is referenced that Giants fans refer to this as "The Fumble." --206.209.15.75 13:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Probably not. Over at The Fumble, I put a hatnote referring people here as that is the more likely search term. Daniel Case 17:03, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I can't imagine referring to this incident as anything other than The Fumble. I watched the game on TV. I can still remember just standing there slack-jawed in disbelief. -- RoySmith (talk) 00:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * As the intro points out, Giants fans feel that way. To decide whether to name it "The Fumble (New York Giants)" or its current name, I used the ever-popular Google test. The Eagles' fan term won.


 * Yes, it is arguably a POV choice of name, but a) it is widely used elsewhere in the NFL and b) it's better than calling it "Fumble at end of Nov. 19, 1978 Giants-Eagles NFL game" (the strictest way of naming it under the naming conventions). Daniel Case 00:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Similar incident in College FB- Tennessee v. Arkansas, 1998
Since this article mainly discusses similar happenings in the NFL, this may not be appropriate, but in a 1998 game between Tennessee and Arkansas, Arkansas had the lead within 2:00 left, looking to pull off the upset of the #1 ranked Vols. Arkansas QB Clint Stoerner tripped and fell, fumbling the ball, which was recovered by Tennessee, who put together a final drive the pull out the win. This game helped Tennessee keep it's hopes for the National Championship alive, which Tennessee won.

This was not really a "similar" event as it did not involve a coaching blunder. There was too much time (2:00) left on the clock for Arkansas to just fall on the ball and run it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.229.108.156 (talk) 18:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Source http://cfn.scout.com/2/588347.html

Wow, great article
How does one go about nominating this for featured status? --Savethemooses 17:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm flattered, but don't. It has no inline references and I'd like to get more material and images in it before I even consider peer review or GA. Also there are slight structural POV issues ... it's much easier to look up New York Times references than Philly paper ones, and thus you get a somewhat more Giants-centric view.


 * Perhaps I should put up a to-do list? Daniel Case 00:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

It has a lot of inline references now and is definitely in danger of being nominated for featured status. I'm going to show it to my Dad. Hopefully the memory won't upset him :-) Ledelste 01:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Fact tag
I added a fact tag for some material about everybody waiting for the kneel down. Does anybody know when teams first started doing the kneel down? Thank you. --70.109.223.188 (talk) 17:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The research I did while expanding this article seems to suggest it wasn't as common (and indeed somewhat controversial with older coaches who considered it unsporting) before this play, which graphically demonstrated why it was the best call in this situation. But, no one seems to know when it began, and who did it first. See quarterback kneel as well. Daniel Case (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. --70.109.223.188 (talk) 13:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

GA Nomination failed
Unfortunately a number of issues with the article mean that at this time the nomination was not successful.

The primary issue is one of referencing. Large parts of the article are completely unreferenced. In general, any statement that could be challenged by a sceptical reader should be referenced. Other points of varying importance:
 * First sentence of the body - It was the first meeting between the divisional rivals that season. What was? The lead should be able to stand separately from the body (see WP:LEAD).
 * Scorelines should use endashes, see WP:DASH.
 * The "Interesting coincidences" section looks like a trivia section under a different name. It also incorrectly describes the events as "ironic".
 * Avoid informal terms (e.g. "wound up the game's goat") wherever possible.
 * Quite a lot of the events described in the "similar plays" section seem to be linked to the subject of the article tenuously at best. At a minimum, a reference showing that the media regard them as similar should be included. Oldelpaso (talk) 08:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Deletions
I deleted much of the trivia that was piled up at the end of this article. It consisted of basically every interesting game between the Giants and Eagles since 1978, and certain other interesting games that were not similiar to the Miracle at the Meadowlands in any way. Vidor (talk) 06:23, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, a lot of that had been written before we had a clear trivia policy (However, the Jets-Dolphins comeback (the one I slept through) has been called the Miracle in the Meadowlands; we should either have a separate article on that game as the biggest comeback in the history of Monday Night Football or just mention it here somewhere. Daniel Case (talk) 16:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd think that game should be mentioned on the MNF page and might well deserve its own article. Vidor (talk) 04:40, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * And in fact that game DOES already have its own page. The Monday Night Miracle (American football)

Sequence of plays just prior to fumble/MM; Csonka "refused the ball" rumor
I was watching an NFL Films clip on the MM and noted something. In the NFL Films documentary, it states that Pisarcik knelt on first down, then got roughed up a little. On second down, the Giants ran Csonka for 11 yards (presumably as retaliation), then on third down called the same play which resulted in the famous/infamous fumble. This sequencing is the reverse that is stated in the article (which goes run-falldown-fumble). I've also read accounts where Pisarcik's falldown was on first down, with the fumble on second down. Unfortunately, without either actual game footage or a play-by-play, I can't verify any of the three versions.

I've also encountered a claim by fans that Csonka after the game said in the press that he deliberately "refused" to take the ball in protest of a foolish playcall, and that was the primary cause of the fumble. I find this dubious at best, and have been unable to find any sources to back that up. The source of the "Csonka refused" rumor is apparently Vince Papale, who mentioned it to a Giants/Syracuse fan during the press tour for "Invincible" who then mentioned it on a sports board. I don't doubt that how VP remembers it, or how he recalls it being told to him, but at the time he was an Eagle and not a Giant so he wasn't in a position to know. Does anyone have a cite for this? Tagryn (talk) 13:45, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
 * While as the sources demonstrate I did thoroughly research the article, it was long enough ago that we were only strongly encouraged to list our sources at the end, not cite them as stringently as we do now. I don't recall any source saying that Csonka claimed to have refused the ball during the actual play, only what the article does have, that Csonka supposedly told Pisarcik he wouldn't take the ball as he walked away from the huddle and that Pisarcik's failure to hear him was one of the causes of the disaster that followed. Since Papale is still alive, it would be interesting if someone asked him this with a recording device running. We might get some more clarity on this. He could have known—as the article shows, players do talk to each other a lot on the field and he could have either heard Csonka, misheard Csonka or heard it secondhand from a teammate who had talked to Csonka or another Giant. Daniel Case (talk) 14:43, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I found a copy I had of the "NFL Game of the Week" for this game, it also states that the first play was a kneel-down, the second play was an 11 yard run by Csonka, and the third play was the fumble. I'm going to see if I can rewrite that section based on the double-confirmation of the play sequencing.Tagryn (talk) 18:32, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
 * If you can cite it as a source (using, I don't know, cite video or whatever, that would be great. Daniel Case (talk) 19:04, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. Tagryn (talk) 18:48, 28 January 2014 (UTC) (UTC)

Next home game
Their next home game after that Miracle at the Meadowlands was against the St. Louis Cardinals the Giants won in a shutout. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.34.211 (talk) 14:08, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Uh, yes, the article already notes that, but only because there was a huge fan protest at halftime. Daniel Case (talk) 16:06, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

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criminal influence over game?
My understanding is that this book says the game was 'fixed': https://www.amazon.com/Interference-Organized-Influences-Professional-Football/dp/068808303X 158.123.57.254 (talk) 16:57, 15 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Read it and tell us what it says. Daniel Case (talk) 14:22, 16 August 2023 (UTC)