Talk:Miracle of Chile

wp:fringe?
This strikes me as wp:fringe Jacobo Schatan claims that US opposition to the government (their stated goal was to "make the Chilean economy scream") affected.[5]. Jacobo Schatan claims "It was clear that the scarcity had been manipulated for political reasons, to create a climate favourable to both the coup and, subsequently, the total change of the economic system."[5] Does anyone besides this Jacobo Schatan guy believe that? Barring a RS that confirms this claim, I am going to remove it. Bonewah (talk) 20:40, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The CIA believed it. Their documents can now be cited demonstrating they were under orders to make the Chilen economy scream. There is no source higher then that unless it is a deliberate deception by them. This is not a fringe view. This is a view common to many interpretations of Cold War history re: Chile.--Senor Freebie (talk) 01:57, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * A desire is not the same thing as an outcome. What needs to be shown is the US opposition to Allende did affect the Chilean economy significantly. I can see no reliable source supporting that claim. Economists generally agree the problems are caused by Allendes economic policies as far as I can figure out, and since the same policies have let to the same economic problems in other countries that seems to make sense. Nowhere have I seen a source saying the goal with making "the economy scream" is to change the economic system. That would also be rather impossible to have that goal in September 1970, as Allende hasn't even Assumed power then, and there is no socialist economic system to change as of yet, I agree it needs to be removed, it's a fringe theory from an economic point of view. --OpenFuture (talk) 07:44, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * So you're saying that an order from the head of state of the worlds most powerful economy to an organisation known for serious manipulations of countries economies isn't suffecient reason to think that the intended target felt any effect? You cite evidence that changes like the ones Allende made harm economies yet provide no source despite the fact that this article clearly points out that the changes made by Pinochet in the opposite direction created a more serious down turn in Chile's economy and the same economic changes wrought havoc on the entire region. And now, with numerous Latin American countries making the same changes the region is finally heading upward and outward economically. You seem to have made some conclusions of your own without checking the evidence thoroughly regarding the value of each mans economic principles. But furthermore you're labelling what I say as WP Fringe when I'm citing perhaps the most powerful primary source there is. This just doesn't make any sense to me in the scheme of improving this article.
 * I almost feel that if I cited Stalin ordering the appropriate agencies to punish returning POW's after WW2 you'd ask me to provide evidence of a direct chain of command, leading to the order being completed as well as articles by economists discussing the negative ramifications of being a captured Soviet soldier before I could include it in the relevant article.--Senor Freebie (talk) 15:47, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * But you didnt cite anything, you just claimed that the CIA did it. If you want to include something, give us a source and we can talk about it. As it stands now, all i see is speculation. Bonewah (talk) 16:03, 21 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, Senor Freebie, I am saying exactly that. It is completely correct that one person, not even the US President, can not change the world by simply wishing it changed. You need to show that his order led to actions and that these actions had the desired effect. For the rest of your answer I suggest you cool down and stop rambling hysterically, and discuss the issue in a cool and factual manner. And we know that Stalin was in command in Russia in exactly the same way as we know that Nixon was *not* in command of the Chilean economy. Allende was. So what you are claiming is that Roosevelt saying to someone in the White House "I sure hope those German prisoners in Russia suffers" meant that they did, but that Stalins orders had no effect. THAT is what you are claiming. --OpenFuture (talk) 21:05, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

- «That war—what many Chileans understandably see as a war of the rich against the poor and middle class —is the real story of Chile's economic "miracle." By 1988, when the economy had stabilized and was growing rap­ idly, 45 percent of the population had fallen below the poverty line.5 0	The richest 10 percent of Chileans, however, had seen their incomes increase by 83 percent.5 1	Even in 2007, Chile remained one of the most unequal soci­ eties in the world —out of 123 countries in which the United Nations tracks inequality, Chile ranked 116th, making it the 8th most unequal country on the list.52 If that track record qualifies Chile as a miracle for Chicago school econo­ mists, perhaps shock treatment was never really about jolting the economy into health. Perhaps it was meant to do exactly what it did —hoover wealth up to the top and shock much of the middle class out of existence.» Taken from Naomi Klein, The Shock Doctrine. Second part, thrid chapter "the myth of the chilean miracle" it has got three notes with references attached: Interview with Alejandro Foxley conducted March 26, 2001, for	Commanding Heights: The Battle for the World Economy, www.pbs.org. Constable and Valenzuela, A Nation of Enemies, 219. 52. Central Intelligence Agency, "Field Listing—Distribution of family income —Gini index," World Factbook 2007, www.cia.gov. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.206.196.46 (talk) 14:01, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Congratulations on being able to read and recite 'The Shock Doctrine'. A few things, 'shock therapy' is a figment of Ms. Klein's imagination, the entire concept was invented by her from a mis-characterization of a letter by Friedman to Pinochet. Also, notice how miss Klein changes the measurement mid stream, at first she says that "45 percent of the population had fallen below the poverty line" by 1988, but then when looking at the 2007 measurements its all about equality of income distribution.  Why doesnt she compare 1980's poverty to 2007 poverty? Because in 2007 Chile's poverty rate had fallen to 18.2%  which flies in the face of Klein's thesis. Yes, the rich did get richer in Chile (CIA world factbook lists Chile as 15th most unequal, not 8th) but the poor also got richer, lifting a lot of poor Chileans into the middle class that Klein claims was destroyed. You also kind of have to wonder why Klein chooses 1988 as the year to measure poverty, Im sure it had nothing to do with the economic crisis that had befallen all of south america in the 80s. These are just a few of the criticisms that can be leveled against 'shock doctrine', and by no means the most important. You should try scrutinizing Klein and her work, if you do you will likely find that her work does not survive. Bonewah (talk) 14:14, 22 March 2010 (UTC)


 * See in particular --OpenFuture (talk) 15:18, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * LOL, reading? sounds more like a cut and paste job. Anyway, I wonder how well substantiated assertions in the article are. Also, I wonder about the problem comparing Chile facts and figures to other South American countries. How reliable are the statistics? How "accountable" those that maintain them? 41.151.224.79 (talk) 11:01, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

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This was obviously written by a Chicago disciple.
Subject speaks for itself. If I have free time in the next few months (writing an academic article on "Condor"), I'll work to correct all of the massive biases and misconceptions on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.64.70.66 (talk) 02:53, 29 August 2017 (UTC)


 * This comment was obviously written by a socialist. There. Is this what you imagine proper discussion to be like? 84.206.25.242 (talk) 13:24, 26 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The information is well cited, I'll be sure to revert all unsourced claims and unverified sources as you clearly are attempted to add a bias where there is none.

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External link broken
"Chilean economy did very well, but more importantly, in the end the central government, the military junta, was replaced by a democratic society. So the really important thing about the Chilean business is that free markets did work their way in bringing about a free society."

I can't find this quote. The Financial Times page it links to goes to an error page. Ryan W (talk) 04:58, 10 July 2022 (UTC)