Talk:Miriam Makeba/Archive 1

What's her mother tongue?
What's her mother tongue? --213.114.249.186 11:50, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Xhosa. — N-true 19:23, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Tone of article
Beefart says: I am a little unhappy about the tone of this article. I detect a tendency to reconstruct history. For a start, it is stated that MM was "exiled". This makes it sound as though someone did it to her. I don't think that was the case. My recollection of the times is that she left South Africa of her own accord and that she could have returned had she wanted to do so. If this is not the case, there ought to be a citation to that effect. Many people have observed that MM had to endure a life of fame, comfort and ease as a celebrity in Europe. Meanwhile, back at the ranch in Pretoria, other activists such as Steve Biko were "slipping on bars of soap" in the shower and dying.....

The role of MM as an activist- like everything else at Wikipedia- must ultimately be verifiable. Let's have a few references and quotes, kiddies. You know what a crusty old cynic Uncle Beefart is... In the New South Africa, after the change, every black person seems to have been a member of Umkonto we Siswe and it is impossible to find a single white who ever voted Nationalist Captainbeefart 14:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Question about her citizenship and passport
If her South African citizenship and passport had been revoked, how did she manage to travel? If she acquired citizenship in another country, this should be included in the article. Grandma Roses (talk) 11:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a good point. In fact, she acquired passports and citizenship in many countries, as I've added to the article. Many sources I found described her as a world citizen during her exile, but our article on the subject describes a completely different concept. Graham 87 14:29, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * On Swiss TV tonight, I watched a special documentary on her. They claimed she acquired the Guinean citizenship for many years. Several Guinean musicians were interviewed and they seemed to implicitly confirm this claim (e.g. "she lived next to us and we often had dinners together", etc...). Then again, the point of focus of the documentary wasn't her citizenship but rather a retrospective of her life and career. As usual with documentaries, the sources scrolled super fast at the end in font 9, and I wasn't able to catch anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.57.12.119 (talk) 01:02, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Miriam Makeba's deathplace
I've just written the name of the actual place where Mrs Makeba died tonight. I live in Italy, so I've got a very precise stream of news, and they say she died at Castel Volturno's "Pineta Grande" clinic. I don't know how to quote what I wrote, could anyone of you do that for me? Gianmaria Framarin (talk) 02:30, 10 November 2008 (GMT)


 * I can hardly believe it, but this site in Italian among many others seem to confirm it. My Italian isn't good enough to translate it, and no English news sites have picked up on this yet. To make a reference type " . Can you tell me which website you're using to get this information? Graham 87 01:50, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There's this source which appears to be an article from Il Messaggero. But I am still a little cautious because no news about her death has come up in English, at least on Google Alerts. News doesn't travel *that* slowly, surely. Graham 87 04:11, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added that article as a source. But why is it that the only sources I can find for this on a Google News search are in Italian, Spanish, and just recently Dutch? ? She was famous all over the world. Graham 87 04:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's been picked up by AFP now. | IOL Tonight Segment, South Africa, | BBC and | AFP GetDownAdam (talk) 05:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * News24 is reporting it now, but the SABC is still not saying anything on the matter. Although it seems to be true, I also find it strange that the news is traveling so slowly. FFMG (talk) 05:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * SABC is now reporting it as well. FFMG (talk) 06:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Birth Name
Was her birth name really, Zensile Makeba Qgwashu Nguvama Yiketheli Nxgowa Bantana Balomzi Xa Ufnu Ubajabulisa Ubaphekeli Mbiza Yotshwala Sithi Xa Saku Qgiba Ukutja Sithathe Izitsha Sizi Khabe Singama Lawu Singama Qgwashu Singama Nqamla?

The link given as a reference claims to be from Miriam Makeba herself but there is no proof that this was really her birth name.

I have never heard of the explanation given in the article as a valid reason, and I have also never heard of such a long birth name in Xhosa. Furthermore the 'translation' given by the editor, "There is a saying that after dinner, the Xosa kick the dishes.", does not match the reason given by 'Miriam' in the comment.

Can someone verify if this is really her birth name and quote a more reliable source than readers comments. FFMG (talk) 09:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Makeba commented in Time after an article, maybe this one, misspelt her name. The comment about Xhosa kicking the dishes after dinner is facetious, probably implying that the editor of the original article went to some effort to get the name right. I don't know of a more reliable source than the Time articles. Graham 87 10:16, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I've found and linked her original letter, which IIRC is slightly different than the reprint I cited before. The page break is in a very awkward place. If the name is incorrect for some reason, or the explanation is incorrect, then it should be removed; otherwise, it should stay. Graham 87 10:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

This is completely misleading.

Her cited "full name" is merely her name with her clan's praise poem attached to the end. Read this thesis for a Sesotho perspective on praise poetry and clan lineages: http://etd.unisa.ac.za/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-02152007-120854/unrestricted/dissertation.pdf

Her full name is just her name and surname, or, more traditionally, her name and her father's name (eg the great Shaka kaSenzangakhona was the son of Senzangakhona kaJama, the son of Jama kaNdaba, etc).

I can't understand most of it, but it does say something about food and dishes. As you can see from the thesis I linked to, praise poems do sometimes tend to be a little absurd.

Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 12:23, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, I'll remove it. The PDF file throws up an empty document under Adobe Acrobat 7; I'll upgerade Adobe Acrobat and try to read it soon. Graham 87 13:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I can't read it at all with my screen reader vecause it seems to be a scanned image. The search term "praise poem" seems promising though. Graham 87 13:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. I didn't realise you were blind, obviously. Yes, it is a scanned document of a thesis entitled "Basotho family odes (diboko) and oral tradition". I guess you could ask somebody else to read it to confirm. The main point is that there are various clans who trace their lineage through oral literature, and when asked about oneself a person may say their name then recite part of their clan's praise poem, which includes male ancestors and crazy assertions about the members of the clan.

Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 14:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Afrobeat
The infobox genre says "afrobeat" (e.g. Fela Kuti's music). Is this accurate? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:09, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Miriam had already died on the 9th of November, at 11:15 p.m., according to Reuters Italia
Here is the news lads: I'm not able to cite references on these pages, haven't learnt yet, but I just read an article by Reuters Italia where the Italian doctor who visited Miriam Makeba at Castel Volturno states (I'm translating) "she had already died at her arrival at the clinic, at 23:15" (this sentence is visible down here in bold type and in Italian). I have copied and pasted the article in Italian down here, if anyone of yous couls add it to the references I'd be happy. This is it:

<<Miriam Makeba muore dopo concerto a Castel Volturno lunedì, 10 novembre 2008 11.19 Versione per stampa ROMA/JOHANNESBURG (Reuters) - La cantante sudafricana Miriam Makeba è morta nella notte in seguito a un attacco cardiaco a Castel Volturno, dopo aver partecipato a un concerto contro la camorra.

Lo conferma la clinica Pineta Grande di Castel Volturno (Caserta) dove era stata portata d'urgenza dopo l'infarto.

"Non stava bene da qualche tempo", ha detto a Reuters il suo agente, Mark Lechat.

Makeba, 76 anni, si è sentita male al termine della sua applauditissima esibizione sul palco di Baia Verde, a Castel Volturno, al concerto dedicato allo scrittore Roberto Saviano, autore del best-seller "Gomorra" e sotto scorta in seguito alle minacce della camorra.

"E' arrivata alle 23.15, già morta", ha detto al telefono a Reuters il professor Francesco Longanella, direttore sanitario della clinica Pineta Grande, confermando che la cantante è stata colpita da un infarto.

"C'è stato un tentativo di rianimazione sul luogo del concerto da parte di un anestesista-rianimatore che era presente. Poi è stata portata qui dal 118, ma è arrivata morta, anche se abbiamo tentato di rianimarla per tre quarti d'ora", ha aggiunto Longanella.

Al momento il corpo della cantante si trova nella sala mortuaria della struttura sanitaria.

31 ANNI IN ESILIO PER LA LOTTA ALL'APARTHEID

Le stazioni radio sudafricane hanno reso omaggio a "Mama Africa" - nota anche come "Imperatrice della canzone africana" - leggendo messaggi inviati dai fan di una delle star più amate del Paese e del continente.

La cantante, icona della lotta all'apartheid, era nata il 4 marzo 1932 in una bidonville vicino a Johannesburg.

Aveva iniziato a cantare nel coro della scuola, e aveva imparato nuove canzoni ascoltando le registrazioni di artisti jazz americani come Ella Fitzgerald.

Mescolava jazz e musica tradizionale africana, intercalando nelle sue canzoni la lingua Xhosa.

Aveva trascorso 31 anni in esilio per aver parlato apertamente contro la segregazione razziale. In una delle sue canzoni chiese la liberazione dell'ex presidente sudafricano Nelson Mandela, all'epoca in carcere per la sua battaglia contro l'apartheid.

Negli anni dell'esilio Makeba creò brani divenuti dei classici come "The Click Song" e "Pata Pata".

Se nel campo artistico ebbe un successo enorme, la sua vita personale fu un'altra cosa.

Aveva raccontato di essere stata picchiata spesso dal primo marito, che lasciò dopo averlo sorpreso con la propria sorella.

Aveva poi sposato l'attivista del "black power" americano Stokely Carmichael nel 1968. I due si erano trasferiti in Guinea, ma poi si erano divisi.

Makeba aveva divorziato quattro volte.

© Reuters 2008. Tutti i diritti assegna a Reuters.>>

I'd be glad if you could quote all this and do the job for me, soz... Gianmaria Framarin (talk) 19:00, 11 November 2008 (GMT)


 * Thanks. We really need access to the article itself.  Just copy the address (http://.......) the same way as you copy a text, and post it here. --  JackofOz (talk) 21:49, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It's the ref named "ri" (Reuters Italy) in the references section. I've changed it back to 9 November, citing that as a source. However the official website and other places say 10 November. Graham 87 23:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It sounds to me that, although she appeared to be dead at 11:15 on 9 Nov, she was not formally pronounced dead till early on 10 Nov. I'd rather accept the date on the website than the word (however good faith) of a doctor who may not have been the one who signed the death certificate.  --  JackofOz (talk) 04:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I've now changed it back to 10 November, with a note acknowledging that some sources differ. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:28, 13 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds reasonable to me. Graham 87 13:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Foul play
Have there been any indication of foul play in her death, whatsoever? Maybe a discussion about it? I believe the whole concert was threatened by the mafia, I'm sure someone has discussed this horrible coincidence - if it is one - already?  — Adriaan (T★C) 17:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Not that I know of, but I agree that it's a noteworthy coincidence. This Google search, despite the high number of results, doesn't seem to indicate much ... the results refer to two different stories like "South African singer Miriam Makeba dies" and "Foul play not suspected" in some other story. Would an autopsy be conducted in Miriam Makeba's situation? If so, that would shed more light on this mattter. Graham 87 16:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * She will be cremated, (as per her wishes), today, (16/11), and I don't think there has been any autopsy.
 * I also doubt there was any kind of foul play, she was not the organiser of the event so why would they choose her.
 * And even then, why make it look like a heart attack, what would be the point? FFMG (talk) 09:06, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Where did the POV come from?
What has this got to do with Miriam Makeba? Perhaps angry about immigrant drug dealers cutting in on their turf in general, on September 18, 2008 members of the local Camorra shot and killed six immigrants of African descent who were working in a store selling ethnic products in Castelvolturno. Violent riots erupted among immigrants and locals prompting Italy's Minister of the Interior to dispatch 400 law enforcement agents to help keep the peace in Castelvolturno as well as other affected areas in the province of Caserta.

What has this got to do with Miriam Makeba? Organizers and the construction crew working on Miriam Makeba's last concert in Castelvolturno were threatened by members of the Camorra to pay 2000 euros for the anti-Camorra concert to go on without incident;shaken organizers bravely refused to pay the Camorra and contacted Carabinieri police officers to ensure safety during the concert. ... Someone shouted words of encouragement like, "Come on, you can make it!"

The death section is full of peacock and POV terms and sound more like a fictional novel rather than a encyclopedia. The Mandela quote is a bit out of context as well. She had a heart attack after the concert, nothing more, nothing else. Please, lets not entertain fantasy conspiracy theories. FFMG (talk) 06:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I hate removing well-sourced content like that, but on reflection, the death section did contain wayyy too much information about her final concert. She's performed in thousands of concerts, and I'm sure some of those concerts were in treacherous conditions. It's undue weight to focus so much atttention on her last one. I've restored the death section to basically how it was in this edit. I've removed the Mandela quote for now - it might be more appropriate for Wikiquote. Graham 87 13:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I have no problems with the deletion, however, my intention for the post was not to entertain fantasy conspiracy theories.
 * I simply presented events which led to her being in Castelvolturno in the first place. Why would she do a concert there
 * as opposed to bigger cities like Roma, Milano, Torino, Napoli, and Firenze? If the Camorra did not recently kill the six immigrants of African descent in Castelvolturno, I think the concert organizers would not have thought to invite Miriam Makeba to perform, and Ms. Makeba might not have been inclined to perform there due to her exhaustion which I also translated from the local Il Mattino reports.
 * Anyone who would like the details of Miriam Makeba's last day and perhaps one of her last phone interviews  can click my name and go to the "discussion"  tab.  Although I wasn't a big fan of Ms. Makeba, I became one after reading  the local Il Mattino news reports following her death.
 * To note, the other rather international references were incorrect as she died at Pineta Grande Clinic not hospital. Kku salerno (talk) 20:15, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I've fixed the hospital/clinic problem. Maybe the Camorra activities in Castel Volturno that led to her performing there could be mentioned in more detail at the Camorra or Castel Volturno articles, or an entirely new article about the killings of the six immigrants could be created and linked from the Makeba article. If it happened in an English-speaking country, there would probably be an article on the killings by now. Perhaps I deleted too much info ... I'll think about it. Graham 87 00:25, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Dear Graham87, From my POV, I wouldn't worry about anything you deleted as it was done boldly. Thanks for fixing the clinic part.  I mention it because if in the future a hardcore Miriam Makeba fan goes to Castelvolturno to seek out a hospital, the person might be given wrong directions whereas "Clinic"/Clinica will immediately ring a bell with locals.  What struck me the most was that Ms. Makeba must have been just exhausted, yet she made it a point to visit Centro Fernandes before her concert, a one hour show after 9:30pm where she apparently gave quite a performance.  How many famous diva-status entertainers 76+ years old could or would do all that?  I thought her last day merited a mention somewhere in English.  Yep, Camorra killings, bribes, money laundering, extortion, etc happen very often in Campania and the stories are not usually relayed outside even the Region.  As for me writing a fictional novel, I just translated the Il Mattino reports which reflect on local life in Campania which is naturally animated and never boring.  As for the "fantasy conspiracy theories" under "Foul Play," the Camorra's usual modus operandi is finding and shooting the victim(s) unless the Camorra went undercover and delivered a heart attack a` la  Richard Kuklinsky.  The deleted section mentions that Ms. Makeba was surrounded by her entourage so she was in good hands.  Despite how lax many regulations are in Campania, from experience hospitals and especially clinics have strict police-like personnel monitoring who goes in and out of the emergency room.  A Camorra assassin would probably feel out of place by the attention from surveilling medical personnel, bored people in the waiting room, patients, and maybe bright lights.  Plus with all the ambulances and medical personnel in the clinic's small spaces, a Camorra assassin would find difficulty in his post-asassination exit route.  Anyways, it's just my $0.02 and conspiracy theorists can and will continue what they do best.Kku salerno (talk) 07:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

External link suggestion: New feature story about Miriam Makeba
As an editor at Crawdaddy!, and to comply with COI guidelines, I am not posting the link to this new feature story about Miriam Makeba, which discusses her musical and political legacy, and includes quotes from earlier interviews by the writer, j. poet, with Makeba and Harry Belafonte. However, I would like to recommend it on its merits, and hope that an editor will find the time to examine the article and—if he or she sees fit—post it to the external links section. I appreciate your time. Crawdaddy! Mike harkin (talk) 17:42, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably not ... I'd be more inclined to use it to add content and cite it as a reference. Graham 87 00:29, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Pata Pata
We need a page devoted to Pata Pata. Someone who is familiar with South African music should help the rest of us understand this song. What is it about? Why is it important? What else should I know? Give me the info I want Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.14.195.238 (talk) 02:31, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Mama Afri[c/k???]a
Why "Mama Afri k a" and not "Mama Afri c a"? Is it right? A Google search of "Mama Africa" "Miriam Makeba" produces about 180,000 results while "Mama Afrika" "Miriam Makeba" about 60,000 results (3 times less, not too much but not too little either). About the same results with Yahoo! (4 times; 34,000/8,000). C/k aside, I think it would be great to know when, where, and who gave her that name. ←→ ("[She] acquired one of her nicknames, “Mama Africa”, when she lived in New York in 1969 [...] I wasn’t much older than any of them, but they started calling me ‘Mama Africa’ and the name stuck.") –p joe f (talk • contribs) 12–14 November 2010 (UTC)


 * You need to grasp how "Mama Afrika" is pronounced in Africa, that would make it clear why the spelling is with a K and not a C. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.237.12.228 (talk) 09:45, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Re: Fact tag on Makeba's desire to leave South Africa to get more money
I'm pretty sure I got that text from this BBC site, which is no longer available. I didn't know how to use footnotes when I expanded the article in September 2006. Graham 87 14:44, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * They've changed that page with this version. Now, the new page embeds the lead section from this Wikipedia article, a picture, some links, and other gadgets. I've tried to find it at web.archives.org, but with no result. That she wanted to leave SA it's in the first quote box at the top of the Exile section. –p joe f (talk • contribs) 15:28, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Marriages
I gather she was married to Hugh Masekela and, later, Harry Belafonte. Can someone who knows more than I do update the page ? Wizzy&hellip; &#9742; 14:08, 26 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Internet sources are a bit spotty on this point, but I've updated the article using an obituary from The Guardian, which lists all of her marriages as far as I know. Graham 87 14:55, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Picture year
Suggests 2011 - seems unlikely to me... Evlshout (talk) 08:56, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Nice catch; you have a point there! Graham 87 14:48, 6 May 2012 (UTC)