Talk:Misha B/Archive 3

Addressing the controversy
Hello,

I'm disappointed at the article being locked recently, but I think this can give us time to sort out some of the issues on the article. One that seems to come up quite frequently is the bullying allegations on The X Factor. As promised above, I have been working on incorporating this into the article and all editors opinions/comments/etc. are welcome. What I have done so far:

Bryan's time during The X Factor was amid controversy after she was accused of bullying. Following her performance of Prince's "Purple Rain" on the third live show, judge Tulisa Contostavlos said that Bryan had made "mean comments" about other contestants, with Louis Walsh claiming that one of his female contestants had been bullied back stage. Fellow judges Kelly Rowland and Gary Barlow defended Bryan against the claims, arguing that contestants should be judged on their performances alone. Contostavlos and Walsh later apologised for their comments. Judge Gary Barlow and Bryan herself said that the accusations had damaged her chances of winning the competition.

Thanks. —Jennie | ☎ 09:40, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Alternatively Link to this Wikipedia Article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_X_Factor_%28UK_series_8%29#Allegation_of_bullying


 * "During Bryans time in The X Factor a a controversy erupted whan she was accused of bullying by some judges,on air, after a live performance." Wikimucker (talk) 10:07, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I have actually never seen that before, but that needs a clean up for neutrality, reliable sources and original research. (In fact, one of the sources is joke Twitter account). —Jennie | ☎ 10:12, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Well written as per usual Jennie. Maybe we should present it neutrally to the BLPN board to get advice as it was advise from there that led to the originals deletion.


 * Bits that I believe could be added


 * a) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/x-factor/8935329/Why-was-Misha-B-knocked-out-of-the-X-Factor.html independently support  Barlows claim that it damage Bryans chances, and is authorative.
 * b) that clearly all the other contestants (apart from Kitty) inc any potential victim and others denied the accusation.

...Zoebuggie☺ whispers 10:15, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * :) I forgot about the quote from sophie being twitter ...yep I am responsible for that entire section  Jennie on the x factor 8 page...Zoebuggie☺ whispers  10:19, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You are of course welcome to improve to improve it's neutrality and sources (the trouble is that practically all the sources that support the accusations are from tabloids or worse). I thought my 'No evidence was ever provided to support either allegation' had been removed as being  deemed original research...Zoebuggie☺ whispers  10:25, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * "Erupted" is probably the wrong word to use. Also, as Zoeblackmore has correctly pointed out elsewhere, the 'b' word was used by one judge, not several. We just need a short, simple sentence (with a reliable source or two) that mentions the controversy took place. Sionk (talk) 12:03, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The Telegraph article would at least partly that bill {at the very least should be added to the wording Jenny has suggested}.  The quote from Barlow  "You have been wrongfully accused in the past of being someone that you are not.... I don't think you can win this competition because of that and that's a real shame"http://www.voice-online.co.uk/article/bullying-scandal-killed-misha-bs-x-factor-dream is authoritative as the reports of the original accusations by Walsh and Tulisa.


 * Personally to me it still leaves a question of doubt, that is why I personally think the rejection of the accusation by all potential victims is important. But...
 * Many of the sources (tabloids {inc the daily mail but not metro}, huffington post, twitter!, and some blogs) I originally used to illustrate the dispute are I agree probably not reliable enough for Wikipedia.


 * As the original removal was based on BLP advice (for whatever reason) I would be happy for an independent admin experienced in BLP to check our wording...Zoebuggie☺ whispers  14:40, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with Sionk's idea that we need a short, simple mention. We can't prove that the accusation was rejected by all the potential victims with reliable sources, and claiming such would damage the neutrality of documenting the controversy. I agree and think that The Telegraph article can be added to further verify the Gary Barlow line.


 * Can you link to where the decision was made to remove the Controversy in its entirety? I'll put forward my attempt at documenting above (with the addition of the Telegraph source), unless there any objections? If you want an admin to check out the wording, then I'm sure that would be fine. Thanks. —Jennie | ☎ 15:56, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the voice on-line http://www.voice-online.co.uk/article/bullying-scandal-killed-misha-bs-x-factor-dream ...is a very good authoritative reference too. I understand your concerns about the reliability of the potential victims sources ( ...funny enough they were included as a balance against what were in reality unsupported accusations - I wrongly was trying to show the reality/ truth).


 * Archive2 UNDUE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Misha_B/Archive_2  if my link attempt fails .... UNDUE  nope i dont know how to link to the archive...Zoebuggie☺ whispers  16:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I still strongly suggest we keep it as simple as possible and leave people to draw their own conclusions. If anyone adds long retractions there are equally reliable sources such as this one and this one which put across a different spin. Sionk (talk) 17:06, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Sionk - do you think there should be any additions/changes/removals to the paragraph I proposed above? (Asking this because I agree with your sentiment and am wondering if you think it's neutral). —Jennie | ☎ 17:12, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Which paragraph? I'm getting a bit lost in all these threads, argh! Sionk (talk) 18:11, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * It is confusing! This one:


 * Bryan's time during The X Factor was amid controversy after she was accused of bullying. Following her performance of Prince's "Purple Rain" on the third live show, judge Tulisa Contostavlos said that Bryan had made "mean comments" about other contestants, with Louis Walsh claiming that one of his female contestants had been bullied back stage. Fellow judges Kelly Rowland and Gary Barlow defended Bryan against the claims, arguing that contestants should be judged on their performances alone. Contostavlos and Walsh later apologised for their comments. Judge Gary Barlow and Bryan herself said that the accusations had damaged her chances of winning the competition.


 * Thanks, —Jennie | ☎ 18:44, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * hi Soink ...to me the Daily Mail is one of most unreliable and bigotted gossip sources who has regularly vilified a whole section of society I care about, it is a nasty piece indeed. The telegraph seems to mostly about her child hood... "At school I was bullied – and I did bully people myself, but I am a different person now." “When I was younger, the stuff that I had to deal with was tough. You make mistakes and learn from them." “Everyone has a past and people make mistakes – I’m proud to say that I’ve learnt from mine and I have moved on.”... the Voice citation is a lot more neutral.


 * My view all long is... if you are going to present one side the accusation then you need to present the other side with equal weight and space and the apology and fall out and if possibly the truth equally. To just say she was accused would seriously mislead the unknowing reader...'Wikipedia states she was accused of bullying = so she must be, nothing here says she didnt'

Sorry about the following egg sucking line.....Remember if has to be in & acceptable for the article it must be positively NPOV and BLP proof...Zoebuggie☺ whispers  19:01, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * But we don't know if she did or didn't, that's why it's best to only mention the allegations in brief. By mentioning only the accusations we can comply with neutrality and the guidelines to do with biographies of living people. As said at WP:WELLKNOWN, allegations that are well-documented can take place in an article, but there shouldn't be claims about whether they did/didn't (see the example). By documenting the events of the controversy, you can allow the reader to form their own opinion and perhaps research the controversy further. Thanks, —Jennie | ☎ 19:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Another form of words using more authoritative sources...not that I really agree with inclusion.


 * MISHA B'S chances of winning X Factor 2011 were put in jeopardy the moment judge Tulisa accused the singer of making ‘mean comments” and judge Walsh a "bully" backstage during the live broadcast on week three. Both apologized the next night, while the other two panel members and several contestants leapt to Bryan’s defence. Fellow judge Gary Barlow said he too believed the accusations had ended the Manchester star's X Factor dream. "You have been wrongfully accused in the past of being someone that you are not.... I don't think you can win this competition because of that and that's a real shame”. How ever good her performances the damage was done, the voting public no longer backed her and she never recovered from this low blow.


 * As a former student of law and jurisprudence ...the reader can only make fair NPOV judgement if all the authoritative facts are presented. The defence is equally well known, documented and even more authoritative.  The accusations by reality show celebrities Tulisa and Walsh are definitely just claims with zero, zilch to back them up...Zoebuggie☺ whispers  19:50, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Hows about something slightly more succinct and neutral such as: Bryan became subject of a controversy during a live show in week three when judge Tulisa accused the singer of making "mean comments" and judge Walsh a "bully" backstage. Both later apologised. However, judge Gary Barlow later said he believed the wrongful allegations had ended Bryan's chances of winning the contest. Sionk (talk) 19:55, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * not ignoring your version soink...just a revision
 * sorry it was a five minute quick job, slight rewording my english can def be improved
 * MISHA B'S chances of winning X Factor 2011 were put in jeopardy when judge Tulisa and Walsh accused the singer of making ‘mean comments” and being "bully" backstage during  week three's show. Both apologized the following night; the other two panel members and several contestants leapt to Bryan’s defence. Fellow judge Gary Barlow said he too believed the accusations had ended the Manchester star's X Factor dream. "You have been wrongfully accused in the past of being someone that you are not.... I don't think you can win this competition because of that and that's a real shame”. However good Bryan's performances were, that followed the damage was done, the voting public no longer backed her and she never recovered from this low blow.


 * Its just three sources...Zoebuggie☺ whispers 20:02, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * We can mix and match our versions...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 20:05, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Your first sentence is opinion with the benefit of hindsight. Your last three sentences all say the same thing. There's no real need to include the quote, it is just padding. Sionk (talk) 20:09, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Nothing wrong with reviewing from hindsight (its from telegraph its a bit like the historical recording of facts :))

here is another version...combining your words with mine Soink

Bryan became subject of a controversy during a live show in week three when judge Tulisa accused the singer of making "mean comments" and judge Walsh a "bully" backstage. Both later apologised. The other two panel members and several contestants leapt to Bryan’s defence. Judge Gary Barlow later said he believed the wrongful allegations had ended Bryan's chances of winning the contest, "You have been wrongfully accused in the past of being someone that you are not." However good Bryan's performances were that followed the damage was done, she never recovered from the accusation. ...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 20:14, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Zoeblackmore, I'm not sure what the theory and philosophy of law has to do with allegations on a singing competition, but it seems that previous attempts to include everything in the past have resulted in versions that have violated the guidelines for BLP. Sionk contributed two sources above where the allegations were interpreted as the truth, and there are more out there that do the same - just as there is others out there that say its false. To represent this controversy, we need something that documents the events, not things that claim vindication for either view.


 * Sionk, I quite like that, we need something succinct. —Jennie | ☎ 20:14, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Sionk It was not removed because of a NPOV issue but because it was took up too much space giving the whole saga too much weight. To correctly document the events you must present both sides and the result equally...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 20:20, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Maybe we should attempt to get Collect or other experienced and independent admin to comment? I did try when Jenny raised the matter....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 20:23, 22 October 2012 (UTC) or take our best 2 or 3 versions to the BLPN board and see if we get any authoritative comments....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers  20:26, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I've linked you to WP:UNDUE before Zoe; when a section of an article is giving "undue weight" it refers to a neutrality issue, not a size issue. I'd be happy to go ahead with Sionk's version, I think it does the job.


 * What do you want a third party to comment upon? —Jennie | ☎ 20:28, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * edit removing part of the last sentence to my version above...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 20:33, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I disagree you can give the whole allogation UNDUe weight by giving too much space to it. We dont even know if neutrality was the issue ...whether Collect and his co-editor where referring to the accusations or defence. 3rd party comment because I obviouslydisagree with the form of words....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 20:38, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I hope you see that I am honestly trying to compromise....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 20:40, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I've opened a dispute resolution notice here. Thanks. —Jennie | ☎ 21:05, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Wikimucker - I initially added you as part of the DRN but was unsure if you wanted to participate. Do you want to? —Jennie | ☎ 21:07, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

(Don't know what happened there SionK as I only sought to add this, in response to Jennie. Re-adding safely I hope.)

Thank You Jennie. If you feel that is the best thing I have no problem with your decision. To my mind the ENTIRE article is imbalanced as the article, overall, relies to an inordinate extent on celebrity type mags and supplements which are ultra low grade sources. The subject has had 1 top 20 hit in her own country and is hardly Whitney Houston is she. Yet she has a page around half as long as Whitneys. However I feel as I always did that a single line reference to the Bullying allegations and with 2 refs to the 2 Telegraph pieces will suffice. The Daily Mail reference is a bit waspish (if of its time) as I recall how the incident played out at the time. I am suggesting that we take Zoes effort at a compromise and reduce it a tad more and then insert into the X Factor section of the page. An effort to so do follows: "Bryan was involved in a controversy during a live show in week three when Judge Tulisa accused her of making "mean comments" and Judge Walsh accused her of being a "bully" backstage. Both later apologised. The other two panel members and several contestants leapt to Bryan’s defence during and after the show. Judge Gary Barlow later said he believed the wrongful allegations had ended Bryan's chances of winning the contest."

Refs 2 Only. 1 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/x-factor/8935329/Why-was-Misha-B-knocked-out-of-the-X-Factor.html 2 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/x-factor/8936371/Misha-B-grateful-for-X-Factor-bullying-claims.html Wikimucker (talk) 22:10, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I think its better neutral record than Sionk's version...... eeek!   maybe add Wikimuckers revision to the DRN ... or seek compromise here...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers  22:22, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Seems fine to me. I'm quite happy with Wikimucker's version. Sionk (talk) 23:11, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I have read the DRN opened by Jenny--x and am entirely in agreement with the opening comments by Jenny--x and SionK Wikimucker (talk) 23:32, 22 October 2012 (UTC)


 * We seem to be agreed. Is the DRN necessary any longer? Maybe we can wait a few days for the article to unlock, unless there is a fervour to herald an admin to make the edit. Sionk (talk) 00:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * If it has to be included and considered acceptable, then I can accept Wikimucker's version. My own view remains "Accusations" on "reality shows" are not of actual biographical value. But I can accept this version....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers  01:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Zoeblackmore, but they are Zoe (see WP:WELLKNOWN).


 * Wikimucker's proposal - I've made some grammar/style/wording changes if that is okay? I simplified "during a live show in week three" to "during the third live show". I made the "j" in "judge" lowercase, as it isn't an official title. And changed "leapt to her defence" to "defended Bryan" as cliches, metaphors, idioms, etc. are best avoided. Here:


 * Bryan was involved in a controversy during the third live show when judge Tulisa Contostavlos accused her of making "mean comments" and judge Louis Walsh accused her of being a "bully" backstage. Both later apologised. The other two panel members and several contestants defended Bryan during and after the show. Judge Gary Barlow later said he believed the wrongful allegations had ended Bryan's chances of winning the competition.


 * The claim "several contestants defended Bryan during and after the show" will need to be supported by reliable sources. I think we'll need to compile these on here for the final version. Furthermore, I think the final version of this should be transposed into The X Factor series 8 article, as at the moment there are neutrality, reliable source and original research issues with that account. There probably isn't a need for the DRN anymore, I'll close it (unless objections?) —Jennie | ☎ 09:41, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Your call. Agree with terseness. Wikimucker (talk) 10:00, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Jennie "They apologised the next night, while the other two panel members and several contestants leapt to Bryan’s defence. But the damage was done..." straight from the telegraph article Wikimucker is using. :)
 * Again I agree with Wikimucker's update
 * I also agree with updating The X Factor series 8 article....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 11:42, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This is sadly and evidently not resolved. Resolution inherently involves finality and I was hopeful that we had reached an accord last night, and I did so with certain parties...of that I am sure. This (and other) section(s) of this page have been subjected to hyperactive editing and re-editing over the course of today.
 * If the main article is unlocked I fear it will be subjected to the same fate. I commend the lock is extended. Wikimucker (talk) 23:34, 23 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I thought we'd reached some sort of agreement. The only difficulty is one editor wishing to use the word 'leapt' (which is a word more appropriate for a newspaper than an encyclopedia in my view). No one will dispute that the judges and many contestants came to Bryan's defence ...but leaping? Keep it neutral and we will all be able to claim the moral high ground. Sionk (talk) 00:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * We have, I think.
 * I made an error in my post above, I meant to say I am happy with Jennie's revision of Wikimuckers original. I am also happy with Sionk's crit of leaping. I have set time aside on Friday for the DRN, but happy to resolve this long standing issue now. Yes I do have my reservations, but sometimes we have to make compromises. ...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 00:27, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Does Everyone Agree
The DRN is closed, based on the view that we have come to decision here to accept:-

"Bryan was involved in a controversy during the third live show when judge Tulisa Contostavlos accused her of making "mean comments" and judge Louis Walsh accused her of being a "bully" backstage. Both later apologised. The other two panel members and several contestants defended Bryan during and after the show. Judge Gary Barlow later said he believed the wrongful allegations had ended Bryan's chances of winning the competition."

Refs 2 Only.

1 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/x-factor/8935329/Why-was-Misha-B-knocked-out-of-the-X-Factor.html 2 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/x-factor/8936371/Misha-B-grateful-for-X-Factor-bullying-claims.html

Do we still agree?...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color=:"purple" face="Arial">whispers 01:50, 26 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure we all eventually agreed to add that to the article. If the article is still locked, we need to call an admin to add the new paragraph. Sionk (talk) 16:05, 26 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The admin's (who locked the article) 5 days runs out at 11.44pm tonight. He maybe on a later time zone. I am happy to wait and check later....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers  16:37, 26 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Fine with everything above :) Thanks for everyone's help, input and discussion. —Jennie | ☎ 22:08, 26 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Zoeblackmore came to my talk page and asked me to unlock the article, apparently because there's been a consensus on what to put in the article. In quickly looking at the above, it looks to me like Jennie, Sionk, and Zoeblackmore all agree, and that Wikimucker agrees except that instead of "defended Bryan" Wikimucker wants "leapt to her defence". I note that Wikimucker hasn't made any edits on Wikipedia in the last couple of days. I'm going to accept this as a consensus and unlock the article. @Wikimucker, you shouldn't change the text unless you can convince the others that it makes sense to do so.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:26, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Heh, I should've looked first; the lock expired of its own accord.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:27, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Subsequent use
I've come across this problem before on other articles and think we're going to need some discussion on it. After the initial mention of the BLP, in this case "Misha Bryan", a person is referred to by something throughout the article.

People who are best known by a pseudonym should be subsequently referred to by their pseudonymous surnames, unless they do not include a recognizable surname in the pseudonym (i.e. Madonna, Snoop Dogg, The Edge), in which case the whole pseudonym is used. For people well known by one-word names, nicknames or pseudonyms, but who often also use their legal names professionally (e.g. musician/actors Beyoncé Knowles, André Benjamin, Jennifer Lopez; doctor/broadcaster Dr. Drew Pinsky), use the legal surname.

For people with academic or professional titles, subsequent uses of names should omit them. For example, use "Asimov", "Hawking", and "Westheimer"; not "Dr. Asimov", "Professor Hawking" or "Dr. Ruth".
 * (Wikipedia guideline, found at WP:SURNAME)

Should she be referred to as either "Bryan" throughout the article or just the whole pseudonym "Misha B" (as there is no surname present in the pseudonym)? I have noticed there is a mixture in this article (I think I've used both on occasion), and was just wondering what everyone thinks we should use?

Thanks. —Jennie | ☎ 17:30, 27 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I guess we should use her better known pseudonym "Misha B", I have used in the past and think my own argument for doing so ...to add variety/ trying not to be repetitive is weak ;) ...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 18:34, 27 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I think she should be referred to by her stage name other than once in the opening Bio where birthnames are referred to by convention.


 * Read the Archie Leach bio. Cary_Grant which is a good example. However Archie had a surname and Misha B can hardly be referred to as 'B' can she???? So we are forced to use Misha in the circumstances. I feel Bryan is not apt once a stage name is better known. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikimucker (talk • contribs) 18:52, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

I guess I'm alone in thinking Bryan is fine. She is no Cary Grant, Madonna or Lady Gaga. This article introduces her as Misha Bryan known professionaly as Misha B. It isn't a great leap from her birth name. Because we introduce Misha here as Misha Bryan, it seems quite acceptable to me to refer to her subsequently as 'Bryan'. Sionk (talk) 22:33, 30 October 2012 (UTC)


 * who knows, she might, one day be possibly as famous as those icons, she might not, no one can judge the future. The only difference for me is that many folks who know Misha B, mostly know her surname is Bryan, where despite their great name I for one personally can never remember Cary Grant, Madonna or Lady Gaga's real names (did any of them a wikipedia page in their first professional year?:)  ). News media have used both. Personally I am happy with both on the same page, but will accept that is wrong to have both if its really not the correct thing to have both....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers  07:51, 31 October 2012 (UTC)...If I had to choose one...I would agree with Wikimucker that we should follow convention and use her stage name Misha B....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers  08:00, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

More unnecessary lengthy quotes from Misha's mouth
It is really perplexing that someone continues to add lengthy quotes from Misha Bryan. This isn't a soapbox for Misha B to tell everyone about herself, it's an encyclopedia article which should be sumarising what reliable sources have said about her. I'm thinking here particularly of the very lengthy quote added in the 'Music styles and influences' section recently. The B+S article is hardly a great source because it is clear from the wording that the intro is largely taken from this  Wikipedia article! I suggest, if anything, a very brief synopsis replaces the quote. Sionk (talk) 00:18, 3 November 2012 (UTC)


 * ;) Soink...I believe the quote is very descriptive of this artist's musical influences and background. It seems ok by  WP:ABOUTSELF and  WP:SELFPUB. The quote is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim, nor is the any reasonable doubt as to its authenticity and the whole article is not based primarily on such sources.


 * Yes the intro section does borrow from Wikipedia, but the later stuff does not, so not guilty of WP:CIRCULAR here.


 * but others may agree with you....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 01:21, 3 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I've tweaked it to remove unnecessary repetition. On a related subject, the Maximum Pop source which you added back seems to be a non-reliable blog source. No real need to scratch around for quotes from sources like these, IMO, when there are plenty of better sources to choose from. The mention of the rendition of Rihanna's "Diamonds" is probably better placed somewhere else in the article (or removed). Sionk (talk) 03:17, 4 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Apologies, not sure why I did not easily spot the obvious blogginess of Maximium Pop....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 10:02, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Photos
I personally prefer the Misha on stage photo as the main photo, as it is a better image of her now, maybe the headshot to replace Kelly as the photo for the Xfactor section. What do folks think?...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 09:11, 6 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually the headshot was originally a far off stage shot but got edited by photo experts on the commons, we could ask the same again....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 09:37, 6 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm surprised. A close up shot is normally preferred as the main photo of a person (when there's one available). Having a close up and a 'in action on stage' photo seems a good, descriptive combination for the article. Sionk (talk) 11:04, 6 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Someone has moved the new pic down to the post xfactor section, looks good there/logical. I guess the main (close up) pic can stay in place till a better one comes along. I agree with your comment, looking forward to a better close up....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 14:06, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

The Official UK Singles Chart Update - 7 November 2012
'Do You Think Of Me' has landed in at 6 in the The Official UK Singles Chart Update. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/chart/update/singles/print is it ok to post this or do we wait till sunday for the week ending chart?...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers  19:10, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * We should wait until the final chart comes out on Sunday. – anemone projectors – 09:51, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Someone has put the chart position in the discography, as it is not actually false I have not removed it, but will wait to Sunday before putting anything about the chart position in the main body....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 12:29, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think it should be there because it's not the Official UK Singles Chart - that's the only chart we should be including. – anemone projectors – 15:55, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Should be out since lunchtime so off you with there Zoeblackmore. The official charts are these ones not the BBC page > http://www.officialcharts.com/singles-chart/ Wikimucker (talk) 16:23, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Checking 2 sources
Hi folks...are the following 2 sources usable, one is an article written by Misha B herself for Huffpost

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/misha-b/misha-b-nick-minaj_b_2092713.html

the other is the Birmingham Student magazine Live review of her local support gig for Nicki Minaj

http://www.redbrick.me/2012/11/live-review-misha-b/ ...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 01:40, 9 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, like you say, the Huff Post article is a primary source so should be used sparingly, if at all. The Redbrick article is short, so quoting large chunks of it will be WP:UNDUE, but it is from a publication with some sort of editorial standards, so at least of some reliability. Sionk (talk) 00:28, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Much appreciation Sionk for the feedback and advice, I will harvest what I hope is appropriate when I can. I am extremely tired at the moment, so I am trying to limit my contributions (still making the odd error..Soul)...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 05:32, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Blogs, blogs, blogs
The current edit dispute seems a little bit tedious, concerning whether or not Misha B is a 'soul' singer. Next Big Sound (cited by ZoeB) doesn't list music genres, while the blog, Iamtunedup.com (which cites Next Big Sound) does. And I can only begin to guess where the blog got its genre info from - maybe, erm, Wikipedia? That is why several editors here are keen to make sure the information in the Misha B article is balanced and well-sourced, because it will be a major source of information for other people.

From what I remember, the idea that Misha B was a soul singer originally came from a review which said she was 'soulful', which isn't quite the same thing at all. Sionk (talk) 02:36, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * oops, thanks Soink, apologies Jenny...i missed it was an addition...I have reverted my last change...for me it was more her early pre X factor youtubes...covering Nina Simone, James Brown, Aretha Franklin, Etta Jamesand her descriptions of her forth coming album.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X_kLSswNOA&list=PLC30FA678B6A5E04F&index=51&feature=plpp_video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BppDy0YIQns&list=PLC30FA678B6A5E04F&index=49&feature=plpp_video <font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 04:32, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Two BBC sources
1. Misha B joins the panel of music industry experts for our 360 Session, on day 2 of the 1Xtra Live Tour, to inspire, motivate and give some insight into the music industry to the young people of Manchester. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yw_r9w3nOE   Published on Nov 16, 2012 by bbcradio1takeiton ....... ( it is from her mouth) if ok not sure how to make use of her insights....maybe a better editor than me.

2. Misha B - 1Xtra Live 2012     http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0114x95  (plus duet with Daley http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0112yyd)  partly interesting as the first song Runway though unannounced is her fav new song from her forthcoming album and prob next single or part of her next mixtape due in december... bit vague and bit investigative i know...ok i shhh now. ...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 01:07, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Just for Interest to those contributing to this page
This week this artist added a total of +11.7K new Wikipedia Pageviews (+273K new YouTube Video Views +401 new Facebook Page Likes, +3.01K new Twitter Followers)  ...from Next Big Sound Artist Report...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers  18:12, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Misha B and Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 2.0 Generic (CC BY-NC-ND 2.0)
help- and advise sort as usual...

The photographer has given us permission to use the following fab photograph http://www.flickr.com/photos/reds42/8170543433/in/photostream

...................................................................
 * Date: 25th November, 2012


 * Hi Zoe,
 * Done - just for that image. Cheers, Nick.

...................................................................

under a Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 2.0 Generic (CC BY-NC-ND 2.0)

is it ok for me/or someone else to upload it with that licence for use on Misha B's wikipedia page

I must admit I am not confident about how to upload.

I have had reply on a similar question on the commons village pump...but not sure if its definative:) ...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 18:36, 25 November 2012 (UTC)


 * understanding the reply recieved on the commons village pump a little more....are the rules exactly the same for uploading straight to wikipedia as they are on the commons....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 19:12, 25 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Photos on Wikipedia need to be released for any use. They cannot be restricted to non-commercial use, or 'no derivs'. They need to be released using a CC zero license, or 'Attribution', or 'Attribution-Sharealike'. Probably the easiest way to do this would be for the photographer to change the license on Flickr to one of the acceptable CC licenses, which can then be checked by Wikipedia. It's a great photo, but it wouldn't surprise me if the photographer baulks at the idea of changing the licence! Sionk (talk) 19:23, 25 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you Soink, that is a clear explanation for me. I sent a message to photographer...living in hope...but I would not be surprised either as it is asking alot from the image owner....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers  22:32, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Genre changes
I'm guessing this is mainly for Zoeblackmore, although other users are welcome to contribute/comment. The "Genre" section on an artist's infobox is to be kept general - that is, unnecessary or specific genres should be avoided, and the description should be broad as possible. Adding that somebody is a soul/reggae-fusion singer is a significant claim considering Bryan hasn't released any material as a recording artist that is primarily either of those genres. Artists will frequently use elements from various genres; beats, lyrics, instruments, styles, etc., but this does not make them a member of that genre. For example, Lil Wayne used a heavy-rock beat on his single I Am Not a Human Being, does this make him a member of the rock genre, as opposed to being one of the most prominent rappers in history? Finding sources that mention the words "soul" or "reggae" does not constitute an artist being a member of that genre, and collecting them together to prove it so (especially seeing as it is not explicit) can be seen as POV-pushing. It's very difficult to apply genres to Bryan with there being so little to go off, and things will perhaps become clearer following the release of her debut album, but unless this is a soul/reggae album, adding these as "genres" is unfounded. As one Wikipedian once put it, "baking a cake does not make you a baker". —Jennie | ☎ 17:26, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * ... some rough notes (feeling a bit heady)
 * Jenny neither are the genres left are any more explicit, just from two songs released, I am not even sure where you got 'dance' from....surely you are making a personal judgement or POV pushing as you put it. I am including all the 50plus songs she has covered on youtube and bbc sessions etc, before and after x factor, from what she has said about her music and influences to her forthcoming album. ( my incomplete collection http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC30FA678B6A5E04F&feature=edit_ok).


 * "Not just a great soul artist or even a great R&B artist, the British-born, Manchester-bred Misha B encompasses several genres, while displaying vocals reminiscent of Motown-era greats. Armed with the vocals to blow people away, Misha has the vision to make history".,,,http://www.dvdlyrics.com/lyrics-m-misha_b.html


 * HMV have put her forthcoming album in the following category ....    '''rnb & soul"  http://hmv.com/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?sku=484410


 * http://www.soulculture.co.uk/music-blog/the-co-sign-misha-b-x-angel-do-you-think-of-metime-after-timeride-or-die-medley-soulculture-tv/


 * Talking about her forthcombing album to QX, Bryan said "I'm heavily influenced by where my family come from, Jamaica, so there's a dancehall vibe, but I’m from Britain so there;s pop, too. I started out as a rapper before I became a singer, so there's hip-hop in there and also Motown/soul vibe";[3] and speaking to SixtyNine Degrees it’s going be "fun, free and adventurous" and will take in "rock, indie, blues, pop, hip-hop, soul, R&B – bit of everything"[85] and to MTV "there will be raps on a few songs but it won’t be drowned in rap."
 * pretty soulful.... ballad full of soul and urgency.....her biggest musical influences were Missy Eliott, Tina Turner, Stevie Wonder and Michael Jackson....my household was very, very SOUL heavy.......<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 23:23, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * basically i dont think, excluding all the evidence i bring, that your pov is any better or more neutral than mine...is the a neutral third party/project we can tap :) ...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 23:41, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Misha's music genre is hard to pin down :) MB is an artist who does not want to be boxed into Genres, but expressly/actively determined to mix genres and experiment with styles.
 * Below is a non-exhaustive list of sources that refer to Bryan's genre that i put together in August (minus some blogs which I accidentally included). The are of course more up to date misha b soul references.


 * R&B


 * soul inc (Motown)


 * but also


 * hip hop


 * rap


 * (Grime)


 * reggae fusion inc (drum and base)(dancehall)


 * (dance)


 * (rock)


 * (indie)


 * (pop)


 * so simply on weight of independent third prty reference soul music comes out pretty high in descriptions of her music....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 12:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Zoe, do I really need to tell you that "dvdlyrics.com" (and any other "blogs") are not reputable? "Sosogay", "QX" and "Flavourmag" have nothing to do with music and are not reliable for the genre of artists (not even that, none of them say she is a soul singer!). The first two are magazines aimed for a LGBT market and the third for the "young and ambitious". Sources from Rolling Stone, NME, Allmusic.com etc., are well known for their expertise in musical journalism and are reliable.


 * Of course she is using a "soul vibe", sounds "soulful" and listens to soul music, this does not make you a member of the soul genre however! Please look over Soul music for more information about the genre. I'm removing soul from the list of genres, please remember Wikipedia guidelines on reliable sources and any future inclusions of this will be warned and reported. Thanks. —Jennie | ☎ 17:58, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Edit: I don't remember adding "dance", but Home Run does feature it prominently. (For another discussion, however...) —Jennie | ☎ 18:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Please report away, i am convinced that the are enough sources (maybe not Rolling Stone etc ) that supports her being included in this Genre. I welcome a qualified 3rd party opinion....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 18:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What gives you higher authority to place an artist in a specific music genres, what sourcessource do you have for R &B and Hip Hop over Soul. How come your Genre changes are more neutral than all the evidence I have supplied above point of view. Who out of the two of us is more guilty of disruptive. Where does your Consensus spring from to support your personal view Thank you....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 18:59, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

There's no reflist here, so can I ask if you provide sources, you do so as embedded url's, rather than little blue inline citations.On the 'soul' question, I agree with Jennie, 'soulful' etc. is not the same as being in a sould genre. Sionk (talk) 19:43, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry Soink i thought i had put the urls straight on here, done it again proper
 * R&B http://sosogay.co.uk/2012/singles-of-the-week-16-july-2012/ http://www.last.fm/music/Misha+B


 * soul http://www.qxmagazine.com/feature/the-queen-b/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UlWJxY_49Y  http://www.flavourmag.co.uk/sneak-peak-shots-from-misha-bs-debut-single-home-run/  http://sosogay.co.uk/2012/singles-of-the-week-16-july-2012/http://www.dailystar.co.uk/playlist/view/263170/X-Factor-star-Misha-in-B-line-to-top/|accessdate=21  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu0AYRj7mxA  http://www.last.fm/music/Misha+B/+tags, http://www.dvdlyrics.com/lyrics-m-misha_b.htm , http://hmv.com/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?sku=484410 ,


 * hip hop http://www.qxmagazine.com/feature/the-queen-b/ url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UlWJxY_49Y http://sosogay.co.uk/2012/singles-of-the-week-16-july-2012/  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu0AYRj7mxAhttp://www.last.fm/music/Misha+B


 * rap http://sosogay.co.uk/2012/singles-of-the-week-16-july-2012/ http://www.last.fm/music/Misha+B


 * (Grime) http://www.grimescene.co.uk/grime/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3023:sbtv-misha-b-interview-&catid=39:club&Itemid=67


 * reggae fusion inc (drum and base)(dancehall) http://www.qxmagazine.com/feature/the-queen-b/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UlWJxY_49Y http://www.flavourmag.co.uk/sneak-peak-shots-from-misha-bs-debut-single-home-run/ |


 * (dance) http://sosogay.co.uk/2012/singles-of-the-week-16-july-2012/

This list is old (August 2012), the are newer sources.

...but hey lol i am surprised you agree with someone else rather than me.lol....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 20:39, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * another source http://www.allgigs.co.uk/view/artist/71723/Misha_B.html

allgigs.co.uk is a website for ticket sales, not for supplying information about artists' style. It's going to be difficult to find sources to support soul as a genre, considering 1 mixtape and 2 single releases (and that is why I advised you to bring this up after the album release). If Bryan was active in this genre, there would be a wide variety of reliable secondary sources saying so, and what I am trying to say is, at the moment, there isn't. —Jennie | ☎ 23:14, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * It may not be the best source but it is independent and neutral, just another amongst the wide variety sources which i listed above. Yes Currently the are no major first division music sources that define this artist genre, just the ones we have got, so maybe we ought to remove all her genres, if Soul is removed, as the others have even less reputed supporting sources?...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers  23:36, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Ticket sales sites aren't neutral. They're written to flog tickets, not give objective critiques. On the soul question, Misha says in The Star article that her forthcoming album will be soul based. Considering this hasn't been released yet, there's no evidence she's an established soul singer at present. Sionk (talk) 01:42, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The is a lot more evidence supporting Soul than R&B or even hip hop. I have put a request for third party opinion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musicians and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject R&B and Soul Music, and request to check the sources at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 01:46, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * You've finally realised the problem. There's almost nothing of any authority that independently reviews her original work. I'm struggling to find a review of her single anywhere! Misha B seems to claim influence from almost everything! Sionk (talk) 02:16, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I kinda did, I think...but I still somewhat a novice trying to get it right, still learning, sometimes feeling like a victim instead of realising my co-editors are equally trying to get it right (bad past personal experience)...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 00:11, 7 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we should remove the Genre field altogether, until the release of her debut album. This way we can use the reviews to determine which are the most appropriate. Although the two released singles perhaps point to the R&B/hip hop genres, two singles are perhaps not loads to go on. And soul, although used on The X Factor, has not been part of any of her releases as far and therefore won't transpire into any reviews (of any quality). What is everyone's thoughts on the removal of the field? If R&B, hip hop or soul feature prominently on this album then we can gather reliable sources for its inclusion. —Jennie | ☎ 19:26, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * mmm...I both happy to agree for peace/compromise and Bryan says she does not want to be boxed in by genre, but also sad to loose r&b and hiphop as well as soul ;) for 3 months. Wish we could tap into expert neutral opinion:) I much rather work as a peaceful team rather than in conflict with my co-editors....<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 23:55, 6 December 2012 (UTC) ...i stand up for what i believe in but don't enjoy arguing at all.


 * lol and ibet someone well meaning will put something back, probably Opera and Country and Western?...<font color="green" face="Arial">Zoebuggie☺ <font color="purple" face="Arial">whispers 00:02, 7 December 2012 (UTC)