Talk:Miso/Archive 1

The History section is poorly written and should be cleaned up.
It reads like a parable or myth but is presented like fact. It has spelling errors (siege!) 24.175.26.71 06:16, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Couple of clarifications about the changes I made.

Miso can be made with only soybeans and salt (plus koji of course). Although the most popular types are made with grains added.

According to the miso.or.jp site (only in the Japanese section) fermentation can take from 5 days up to 20 months. See link fermentation times(Japanese).

Barly miso is not considered the mildest that would rather be miso made with rice. The most salty one is said to be made only from soybean. But since it is hard to get precise information about it I deleted the section.

"Anything fermented for less than 12 months is considered low quality" is NPOV as it greatly depends on the ingredients used.

I correct some grammatical errors in the history section, but I didn't change the text substantially. I think it needs to be better organized, but I have to leave that to someone who understands miso better. --G Gordon Worley III 18:28, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Updated Page
Added much, but most of the original text was only moved to new positions, it could stand a few character references to Chinese and Korean as well now. One day I'll get the k& and aspergillus oryzae going as well. Would be nice to get an image of miso being made in a kura as well. Schlüggell | Talk 19:08, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Fungus not bacteria
The statement seems innacurrate and illogical: "Much like yogurt, miso contains live bacteria of a highly benefical nature, including vitamin B12"

-Miso contains fungus, not bacteria as far as I know -Vitamin b12 is not a bacteria

Hence, The entire claim is invalid

In terms of terminology, acutally, although the term "fungus" is used, "koji-kin" is commonly referred to as "Koji Mold" in English. This is because "fungus" refers to larger molds (like mushrooms) but "mold" generally refers to microscopic instances, particularly of the kind that Koji is a form of.


 * Sorry, fungus is a term for all members of the Fungi kingdom. Mo(u)ld is a lay technical term for fungi without large fruiting bodies, but all moulds are fungi. Some fungi are only known from vegatative forms that could be described as 'moulds' whilst other closely related ones are unknown to produce large fruiting bodies. Stub Mandrel (talk) 19:27, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Although the koji mold is the instigator for fermentation, the enzymatic breakdown of the proteins and carbohydrates in the legumes and grain, in non-pasteurised, living miso, there are a number of bacteria beneficial for human health present.

This is the Masa or massa in the Pali texts, similar to Yagu-hoti or Yoghurt from the turkish Buddhists, also related to Odana or rice (or grain) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.38.215.42 (talk) 02:35, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Nutrition Facts?
I thought it has been now found that those are just B12 analogs, so don't say miso provides B12.

It's inaccurate, or at least hyperbole, to call this a "high protein" food. My package of Miso says it has <1g protein in a 10g serving. A more encyclopedic source, USDA, says Miso has 12g protein in 100g of Miso. This is if you eat it straight. Watered down in soup, the protein is minimal. By contrast, Parmesan cheese (& beef jerky) have 40g/100g, pumpkin seeds (& braised veel, lamb, beef, fried chicken), have over 30g/100g, peanuts have 26g/100g. Unless someone convinces me otherwise in this talk page, I'll eventually change the main article, but I didn't want to change such key wording in the opening paragraph without warning.


 * Miso is a high protein food. However the level of protein present depends on the base products. So a near 100% soy bean or other legumunous miso would be much higher in protein that one made from another with a high percentage of grains. Throughout Japanese history, miso served as a critical protein compliment to a low protein diet. From an America POV in which nutrition is based on super high protein intake, miso can be considered to be low protein. However, when taken in the context of its own cultural culinary history, a diet consisting of a variety of plant based foods significantly lower in protein gram for gram than miso, it can be asserted that miso is high protein.

USDA database also confirms zero B12.

It seems food articles should have a standard link to a nutritional database, so we don't have to clutter up the article with too much about the nutrients.


 * USDA is not necessarily the leading authority on nutritional information and in fact often lags in relation to most recent research. Its accuracy is also disputable by other similarly functions in Europe and Asia. That said it is generally agreed that miso does not contain B12.

Separate paragraph on how miso is made?
The short description of the process of making miso is vague, especially refering to the mould inoculations. a separate paragraph covering the process could be more appropriate.

Broken Link
The link to http://www.clearspring.co.uk/pages/site/products/miso/info3.htm (in section Miso nutrition) seems broken. Also, the "Dengaku" wiki link does not point to an article about "charcoal-grilled miso covered tofu", rather this article is about "rustic Japanese harvest celebrations". Aragorn2 23:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC) →

Article cleanup, rewrite
I think miso is more important to japanese cuisine than sushi, albeit a bit less famous as an export. The sparcity of the miso soup article and this one shocked me, so I am working on rewriting them. I do not claim to be an expert on miso, but I am learning what I can to work on it. Some notes for this article:
 * Miso is central to a huge number of japanese dishes, not just soup. The article touches on this but doesn't go into detail. I am adding more about pickles and candies, anyone know more?


 * How about dengaku tofu (grilled, skewered tofu topped with a dark or red miso sweetened with sugar and mirin, served with sansho - this depends on where you're from)? Or misonikomi udon (udon noodles in a long simmered rich broth, famous in Aichi)? Let's not forget everyone's (well, mine) favourite temple/shrine/festival snack - goheimochi - pounded glutinous rice on a stick, grilled and coated with a miso based sweet sauce - Nagano Gohei mochi with its peanuts, walnuts and sesame flavoured version is especially nice)? Particularly in the Chubu region (Aichi, Gifu, Mie) miso flavoured snacks suck as rice crackers and arare are quite popular.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kinyoubi (talk • contribs) 01:40, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Pickles made with miso aren't tsukemono, those are salt pickles. Soy miso pickles are misozuke, and nukamiso pickles are (i think) nukamono but I am not sure on that.


 * Pertaining to the above. Pickled foods are as a category refered to as "tsukemono" in Japanese. Tsukemono is a broad term used to refer to anything (usually vegetabes) that has been "inserted" (hence the "tsuke" in tsukemono which means "to put, to insert, to attach etc" into a pickling (salt, vinegar, lees, miso, soy sauce etc medium). Thus, tsukemono made with miso is known as misozuke. Pickles made with salt are "shiozuke", made with soy sauce "shoyuzuke" etc.

Further, nukazuke is made with salt and "nuka" (rice bran), hence the term nukazuke. It is also a kind of tsukemono. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kinyoubi (talk • contribs) 01:31, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Although rice, barley, and other ingredients are common miso additives, soy miso is #1. The article doesn't stress that, I think. I added a side note, but is that enough and does it sound forced?

Although soy is a main ingredient, even in Japan the proportion of soy beans to grain varies according to region and style. The white misos of Kyoto etc are almost completely rice based.

I will write more on this later (when I have access to materials), however, for now it is important to recognise that in the West, primarily soy based misos are the norm. However given that there is such a large variety of miso it is difficult to assert that soy is #1.

Indeed, the key (scientific, culinary) feature of miso is that a substrate is used to allow the koji mold to enzymatically break down the proteins and starches in a miso mix. Thus, miso with a higher proportion of grain (since the carbohydrates are converted to sugar and depending on other controlling factors such as salt and the presence of wild yeasts etc) is sweeter than with a higher proportion of soybeans or other legumes.

In other words, the Japanese miso known widely in the west is usually made with a high proportion of soy, but in Japan and the miso "world" generally, the same cannot said to be true - culturally or scientifically. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kinyoubi (talk • contribs) 01:49, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd love to get this up past start-class :P
 * Organisation is really poor right now. I will try to fix that when I get back to editing the article, since I introduced some of the problems.
 * More info on nutrition and history would be great. Miso has a big cultural importance to Japan! Can someone add more about that than I know?
 * Info on how miso is made would rock.
 * Anything else?

PS: I have no idea if this is taboo or not, but I am upgrading the article to high-importance. If I am overstepping a boundary please let me know on my talk-page, I have no idea what I am allowed to do. However, I would say that most foreigners recognise miso immediately as a japanese food and know it is a big part of japanese cuisine. It's certainly not to the level of sushi, but I'd say it definitely "contributes a depth of knowledge to the encyclopedia [and has] had a large impact in Japan, and had some impact outside Japan." --Erk 18:20, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Nukamiso
I removed a description about nukamiso. Nukamiso is irrelevant to miso. It is (1) not seasoning, (2) not made of rice, barley and/or soybeans, and (3) not fermented by Kōjikin but Lactobacillus. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 09:13, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Dòujiàng or Dòujiāng?
In the lead in, it says dòujiàng is the Chinese analog to miso, however, the link for dòujiàng (豆酱) points to tauchu, while search for  Dòujiàng suggests Dòujiāng, which is a shorcut to soy milk. I know that à isn't the same as ā, but being such a minor difference, it would be good to have an opinion from someone more knowledgeable make sure these are correct. Dennis Brown (talk) 14:51, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Hatcho Miso?
Any info on what 'Kuro Miso' is? And it might be appropriate to put a tie in to hatcho miso here somewhere. The Jade Knight (talk) 01:30, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Good point. Hatcho miso should be mentioned here (Surprised not yet), its uniqueness on production and significance to Chubu region cuisine. You are welcome to add info you think appropriate. Maybe adding classification by koji could be a good start. --Aphaia (talk) 14:16, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Non sequitur (Nutrition and Health section)
This fragment (not a complete sentence):

"Lecithin, a kind of phospholipid caused by fermentation, which is effective in the prevention of high blood pressure."

...comes from nowhere, and seems unrelated to anything else in the article. Could be deleted. Unless there's related, important material which has been lost?drone5 (talk) 08:22, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Lead: Koji, not kojikin
I slightly changed the lead, which said "Miso (みそ or 味噌?) is a traditional Japanese seasoning produced by fermenting soybeans with salt and the fungus Aspergillus oryzae, known in Japanese as kōjikin (麹菌?), ", it seems to be confused, that says
 * miso is made by fermenting soybeans with salt and "koji"; koji itself is paste produced by fermenting grains or soybeans with Aspergillus oryzae; the types of miso is classified which type of koji (rice, wheat or soybean) is used.
 * Aspergillus oryzae is thus named "kojikabi" コウジカビ or kikukin/kojikin 麹菌 in Japanese, as fungus which produces koji.
 * I consult some dictionaries (Japanese) and encyclopedias, in biology so scientific terminology A. oryzae is kojikabi and only. In daily usage it could be kojikin or kikukin (specially sake and miso industries, e.g. http://japansake.or.jp/sake/). I'd not mind which the community prefers though, there is no clear reason only to pick up "kojikin" in this context. Cheers, --Aphaia (talk) 14:10, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

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Overly precise nutritional information Suggestion
The "Nutritional value" box on the right side of the article is incredibly detailed, listing fifty-odd vitamins and minerals with 2-3 digits of precision. This makes no sense, given that the box only references "Miso", and the article talks about many different types of miso, with many different base and auxiliary ingredients. Either the box should reference a specific type of miso or have far less false precision; it should probably do both. -- Dan Griscom (talk) 19:55, 21 July 2017 (UTC)