Talk:Misogynoir

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): EArtis.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:06, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 September 2020 and 11 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jalapinata. Peer reviewers: Bfedil17, Monkeybomber.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:06, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2021 and 9 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mervt2, Janylahthomas. Peer reviewers: Trjqdk, Victoria Goudeau, Lkm4gn, LHK428.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:06, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 11 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Jeestees.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:06, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Unreliable sources and tags
I've removed multiple Tumblr sources per WP:SELFPUBLISH and reliable sources. I've included tags to where the sources were before. They should be replaced with reliable sources. I will not afd this article at this point, but it does still need some work with additional references. Tutelary (talk) 03:36, 18 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Self published sources are described as being "usually" unreliable, not "always". For an article on a word that is largely used in media that Wikipedia considers unreliable, I think it makes sense to allow the prior citations to stand. If you wait for a mainstream newspaper or magazine to use the term, they will likely get the origin of it wrong. It's better to let this stand now while there is no confusion over who created it, when, and why. Strong vs Poison (talk) 22:01, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Please see Wikipedia policy WP:V. Articles are supposed to be verifiable, and since anybody can create a Tumblr blog and source it to Wikipedia, we have to have a policy on that. They serve no editorial control and are not reliable sources and cannot be used. See WP:NEO for the guidelines on neologisms, which this article's notability guideline may have to be. Tutelary (talk) 22:06, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I did read the Wikipedia policy on verifiable sources, that's how I know it says usually and not always. The wording implies that there is room for exceptions. Strong vs Poison (talk) 22:19, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Do you have a good reason on why this should be an exception? They are self published sources, and there are indeed exceptions in good cases. I don't see this as one. Tutelary (talk) 22:21, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Criticism
My removal of this section, with the comment "etymologically incorrect" does not make sense in this context and the sole actual reference is about how the word "television" is a horrifying new invention", was reverted with the comment "Politely reverting. Does not appear to be so. While I myself cannot access it as it needs a subscription, it's a dictionary entry, not an article." by Tutelary.

Here is my rationale for removal:


 * The first sentance is not backed by a citation ("Some critics").
 * The next claims that as it is a hybrid word, it is "etymologically incorrect" - which makes no sense. The citations (refs 5&6) for this are the dictionary definitions of misogyny and noir - which establish the etymologies but not that their combination is "incorrect"--whatever that could possibly mean.
 * The next sentence, that hybrid words are bad form - is backed by a citation to an article/letter to a journal from 1928 about how the author is displeased by the word "television" and its mixed etymological roots. I'm pretty sure this letter is meant as a joke but it is hard to say. E.g. "The word I have in view now is "television." Can anything worse be imagined?". This reference is pretty bunk and does not establish that hybrid words (automobile, television, ...) are "bad form". I'm sorry that you/others are unable to view it; I have access via my university but I am obviously unable to link this.
 * The final unsourced sentence is just absurd (this is an English word, we don't need to add any "e". What critics? etc.)

With all of this I do not believe that this section is salvageable. Etymology is the study of the origins of words, not a rule book for discarding existing words. This is like, bread and butter for etymologists as well.

If there is criticism of this word its going to have to come from somewhere else. --129.97.134.129 (talk) 02:49, 11 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't think Tut's remarks do not run that deep. She just adds her 2 cents.  基 (talk) 14:43, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Contested deletion
This page is not unambiguously promotional, because... (It has abundant citations and relates a perfectly valid phenomenon and academic subject.) --66.108.200.170 (talk) 21:18, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Contested deletion
I do not understand why this has been marked for speedy deletion. Who or what does the article, which just defines and explains the origins of a word, supposed to be promoting? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Strong vs Poison (talk • contribs) 21:27, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Tag
The tag is correct in which I believe that this article was created to promote the word. The word has not seen mainstream use and documenting it, especially in which Tumblr blogs and only four sources is in my eyes an intent to promote by documentation. Tutelary (talk) 23:24, 19 June 2014 (UTC)


 * "only four sources" ... really? What s the new number of sources required ? With approx. 18k Google hits for the word we are long past "promote by documentation".--基 (talk) 23:39, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Google search results are not representative of whether an article belongs on Wikipedia. Please see WP:NEO. Also, the titles of the sources are indicative that the neologism is only briefly mentioned, and indeed in the first source, this is the case. The article uses the term 'Misogynoir' but doesn't talk about it beyond that brief mention. That is not indicative of of usage. Tutelary (talk) 23:46, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Danielle I am familiar with WP:NEO "we must cite what reliable secondary sources, such as books and papers, say about the term or concept" and that is what the sources do WP:NEO does not say - 4 sources are not enough ... --基 (talk) 23:57, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "we must cite what reliable secondary sources, such as books and papers, say about the term or concept not whether they use the word at hand. Just a brief mention of the word does not constitute eligibility of the source. Tell you what, take a look at the first source and do Ctrl + F for the string 'Misogynoir'. You'll find it in only a single, passing mention. The source doesn't describe the topic, what about it, or anything of the sort. Tutelary (talk) 00:00, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
 * which of the 4 sources do you refer to ?--基 (talk) 00:10, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
 * http://www.crunkfeministcollective.com/2010/03/14/they-arent-talking-about-me/ | That also brings up another problem. We are using WP:PRIMARY sources and taking them at their word. This article is by the person who made the word up, evident in the lead and using those are only acceptable for the most straightforward of facts. Even more so garnering the proof for the 'documentation to promote' of this neologism. Tutelary (talk) 00:17, 20 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I see and hear the word being used quite frequently in everyday life and I believe the article here has simply not kept up. All during the current Presidential Campaign, the word has been used on social media to describe racist attacks upon black women and most recently, the horrific verbal and twitter attacks on actress Leslie Jones, who starred in the most recent Ghostbusters Reboot. Here is an online article that discusses those attacks and uses the word. The internet makes it easy to attack black women: More has to be done to stop it.  If editors would simply google the term, they would find that it is becoming a mainstream term to discuss a specific act of racial hatred. LiPollis (talk) 12:25, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Pronunciation?
I came here after seeing the word on the Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tiarah-poyaus-murder-exposes-the-black-male-fragility-we-dont-talk-about_us_57d1751be4b00642712bd58a? Would it be that hard to indicate how the word is usually pronounced? I still don't know whether to say the "noir" as if it were French, or not. DavidHobby (talk) 13:41, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Moya Bailey vs Nick Mullen
Given that the rest of this article extensively cites Dr. Bailey's work on misogynoir (and indeed, that the person who keeps changing the first line hasn't bothered to change that), I'm having trouble imagining why anyone acting in good faith would keep editing in Mr. Mullen as the person who coined the term, especially based on a tweet that postdates much of the rest of the usage discussed in the article. KeSerra (talk) 21:44, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

What does this mean?
From the article:


 * As the plight of the black man in America remains at the forefront of society,

Umm...what? Might want a source for this? Doesn't seem very NPOV. 174.0.48.147 (talk) 14:05, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Well, it is so in 2020: Black Lives Matter marches etc.

Zezen (talk) 11:37, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Misogynoir in Hip-Hop and Rap music
In 2017, Hip hop and R&B became the most consumed genre in America. Hip hop reaches many age groups, especially young ones, and these age groups are often the most impressionable. A lot of Hip hop contains powerful messages that provide hope for many black Americans in the most dangerous neighborhoods, that they can also be famous and achieve a massive amount of wealth. However, these messages can come with derogatory and hypersexualized language directed towards women, essentially black women. Hip hop and rap music include a lot of misogynistic terms and phrases towards women in general, however this has been majorly affecting black women due to the way they are portrayed in music videos and in the media. Black women compared to white women, have been shown in music videos wearing very little or revealing clothing in the background while generally men are the center of attention for the videos. In these music videos, black women are referred to as “bitches”, “hoes”, “tricks”, and with some of the more recent terminologies, “thots”. In the “Gummo” song released by 6ix9ine, the artist states “Your girl on my phone / she wanna fuck but… I only want the jaw / that’s really all I use her for as I kick her out the door.” These lyrics represent that women are used generally for sexual pleasure and after that, they are pushed to the side and left in the background. These lyrics are prevalent in the majority of hip hop and rap songs, however can be found in a variety of different from rock and roll to country music. With repeated exposure to these types of lyrics found in hip hop, it can affect people’s stimuli because they prefer to subject to something that they are already used to. Sparkles24 (talk) 22:03, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
 * @Sparkles24: The student newspaper at Harvard is not a reliable secondary source. sheridanford (talk) 01:45, 14 May 2019 (UTC)/Prof.G

Is it a joke?
Transmisogynoir encomposes transphobia, misogyny, and antiblackness. It was coined by Trudy of Gradient Lair.[12]

FYI, I landed here from an article mentioning these terms bordering on nonce words: Elsewhere on the BLMUK Facebook page, in an apparently genuine mission statement that reads like a parody in places, the group declares that it is opposed to ‘homophobia, lesbophobia (...) queerphobia, transphobia, sexism, misogyny, misogynoir, enbyphobia, ableism, racism, anti-Blackness, Islamophobia, whorephobia (...)

which shares my sentiment, so I may be primed here. Zezen (talk) 11:36, 21 June 2020 (UTC)


 * It may seem like a parody, but it is an actual term people use, and it's notable enough for Wikipedia to be able to create an article explaining what it is. EytanMelech (talk) 02:22, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Added an Image
Hello everyone, I am just informing you all that I added an image. The description was in French and I had to translate it's meaning. I used this because the main sign read something along the lines of ending misogynoir. I wanted to show that black women are doing the work to end a cause that effects them.

If I can find more positive images I will add them. Jalapinata (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:49, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Update
Hello again, I added two sections titled Responses and Media to the article. I thought that expanding on the topic in various forms of media is fruitful for the understanding of the topic. I did debate if music was type of media and if these two sections should be together under one heading. If you have any suggestions I'm all ears. I added the responses to show the positive work that black women are doing everyday to combat Misogynoir as well.

Thanks Jalapinata (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 02:15, 1 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Music is absolutely a form of media according to the college course on Mass Media I just finished. You could write "Other Media" to be more clear.
 * Another suggestion: use "In Music" and "In Other Media" rather than "Music" and "Media". Consider a reader who knows little of the subject and has only read the first couple sentences of the page. They might assume that the "Music" section is about "misogynoir music", music ABOUT misogynoir; but the section actually describes music EXHIBITING misogynoir. By writing "in music/other media" you can eliminate that ambiguity.

Cronack1 (talk) 06:13, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Date fix
Moya Bailey coined misogynoir in 2008, not 2010. Source: Bailey's Tumblr blog

Update... This is sort of explained on Bailey's article but this article could still use the update. It currently reads "created the term in 2010" which is incorrect; 2010 was the first public usage, 2008 was creation.

Cronack1 (talk) 16:17, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 March 2022
Bottom section of Misogynoir, under "Responses": "When she facilities her symposiums she mentions well-known victims"

Change "facilities" to "facilitates" and change "symposiums" to "symposia". Benriddell (talk) 00:23, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
 * facilitates was done, but symposiums seem to be good as is. both symposiums and symposia are the correct plurals of symposium, so unless I'm missing something, I don't think it needs to be changed. melecie   t  - 00:30, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 May 2022
Misogynoir is an important piece in colorism, discrimination faced by a darker individual in their own ethnic or racial group, due to the erasure of Black women in order to have lighter children. Colorism is dependent on Misogynoir as an ideology to help enforce a semi-caste system, a hierarchical format that uses social ranking to place an individual, and uphold the European centric beauty standard, the idea that European traits such as white skin are better. Examples of this can be seen in Latin America with claims like “Mejora la Raza” which translates to bettering the race or Brazil's Whitening campaign, which was an attempt to increase White Europeans to come to Brazil. The relationship between the two ideologies is important to look at as it affects Black women economically and politically. The erasure that is shown economically comes from the pay gap. On average Black Women are paid 21% less than white women, in the United States. This is worse in East Asia as when asked why Black Women are paid less they are met with the statement “I pay by country” Which is cruel as most of the jobs that are done by African Women, who are usually refugees, are demeaning tasks. Misogynoir in terms of political effects can be seen in the countless caste systems that are faced around the world. Systems of oppression such as the colonial system of stratification, a system that was used to keep Spaniards in power, have been used as a justification for the erasure of Black women in Latin America. Due to Black skin being seen as a disadvantage as the lowest point in caste systems that have a standard of Eurocentric beauty ideal. As when the colonization of Latin America began many individuals sought after relationships with Europeans in order to have some form of political power. But the hatred towards Black women continues today by example of marriages in South Korea with African refugees. As for most international marriages, Korean men are more likely to marry foreign women, but this is not the case as more Black men are bound to find marriage than black women. The last erasure of colorism from misogynoir, is the lack of conversation had by Black women in their workspaces where their opinion on things is tossed around and not to be noticed. A high percentage of the peers of Black Women in their workplace are willfully ignorant of the societal consequences of misogynoir. This type of erasure by colorists and the lack of response is what leads misogynoir to grow. Jugojuice22 (talk) 05:34, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:19, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2022
Add "In Intersectionality, " to very beginning of the lead, in order to establish article topic in compliance with the MoS. 2603:3021:25C8:8000:21BF:FD7A:7E9C:66B0 (talk) 18:58, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Could you please say more about "compliance with" MoS? To what element of MoS does your request specifically relate? It is not clear to me that your requested addition is needed: is the term misogynoir only used "in intersectionality"? Please say more about why you would like this addition to be made. Thanks! Doctormatt (talk) 19:18, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: I see no reason to add these words. If there really is a corresponding MoS section please point it out. Aaron Liu (talk) 09:27, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: GWSS 1101 Introduction to Gender, Women, and Sexuality Studies
— Assignment last updated by MNmagistra (talk) 19:54, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Misogynoir
The misogynoir page continues misogynoir by having a Black woman’s name wrong in the text. It’s Natasha McKenna, not Tanisha McKenna. 2601:188:CF00:8D61:35FB:26F9:C825:BA3B (talk) 07:09, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for noting it! DMacks (talk) 07:11, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-01
— Assignment last updated by ACHorwitz (talk) 16:18, 10 October 2023 (UTC)