Talk:Misogyny in rap music/Archive 1

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Request
For the love of God would someone break up that huge paragraph? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.171.253.146 (talk) 01:14, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * which one? and you can always do it yourself.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 16:38, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Rename
I know that many people dont like "criticism of" articles, but rap/hip hop culture and music has received an extraordinary amount of criticism for its misogyny, celebration of violence and criminality, etc. I would suggest this article be renamed "Criticism of hip hop culture and music", but only if and when someone (not me right now) can take the time to improve it. this article should be high enough quality that it could be linked to from every article on a rap artist who has received such criticisms.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 16:38, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

well founded criticism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.191.5.129 (talk) 06:44, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I enjoyed reading the article and can see the potential for a good piece. There may be room for a "Criticism of..." article, but this article's current thrust doesn't really embrace a wide-ranging criticism of hip-hop; it focuses on misogyny. As a Feminism-related article, that should be sufficient for it to stand on its own without needing to be broadened into a general critique, IMO. The suggestion to "rename" the article wouldn't be appropriate without broadening its scope too, and I don't think that is really necessary within this context. Misogyny in such a popular art form is a worthy topic of a separate article, so I propose we keep it and keep working on it. A critique of... section could be added to the Hip Hop culture main article .JoGusto (talk) 09:10, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Lol @ this article having quotes, ruminations and explanations from everybody EXCEPT hip hop artists. I especially enjoy how it subtly suggests that its da white maans fault. It reads like a first year liberal arts students opinion piece. "Criticism of hip hop culture and music" would be a more accurate (if still somewhat disingenuous) description of its content. Thunderlippps (talk) 05:09, 31 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Not so sure its simply an "opinion piece". There are references to published works. Some of the scholars and writers quoted do indeed tie the roots of this misogyny to "its da white maans [sic] fault". The article could be improved by adding verifiable reference material citing any controversy over such claims if omitting them gives it a non-neutral POV. I found it interesting to tie chattel slavery and resulting racism into the misogyny analysis. Why this would make one "LOL" is not clear... JoGusto (talk) 09:10, 26 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I think renaming it to "Feminist criticism of rap music" would achieve more neutrality without broadening scope significantly. Just because a political viewpoint is mainstream and morally just doesn't mean wikipedia needs to abandon its neutrality to promote it. A lot of these "scholars" tend to be activists too. Krehel (talk) 15:47, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Move article to "Misogyny in rap music"
"Hip hop culture" refers to so much more than what this article can cover. The term Hip hop encompasses graffiti, breaking, beatboxing etc. This article, however, focuses on misogyny in rap lyrics, rap music, and rap videos. Almost all sources in the article use "rap music" instead of "hip-hop culture". Therefore, I would like to rename the article to "Misogyny in rap music". --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 17:02, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Examples
I'm sure Tyler the Creator is a good example of misogyny in rap, but the example given, a line from "bitch suck dick", isn't the best example I think. The song itself is described as a comedy/joke song made just for a few laughs by Tyler himself, and the actual line given isn't even written by him, it's written by Jasper. I'm not particularly familiar with editing wiki's or the etiquette of it, so i'll just leave this here, and if no one has an objection, or no one has changed it, i'll come back later and attempt to change it myself. Thanks.

Balance
I've added some additional information under the 'Response' section. Hopefully this will provide some balance to the article. -One.tenth (talk) 01:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Two of the citations lack page references. Could you please add them so that readers and other editors can check that the citations are accurate? Thank you. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 13:56, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I have moved the additional information to the section "Rationale" because it goes well with what is already expressed there, namely that hip hop misogyny is a product of popular culture rather than being, as hooks puts it, a "male black thing". Please also note that the Imani (2004) citation still lacks a page reference. Please add it as soon as you can. Thanks. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 15:14, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Irrelevant information
This was reinserted with the edit summary "restore, how is it not directly relevant?". It's irrelevant because:
 * 1) Stein does not discuss misogyny in hip hop culture, she actually does not mention misogyny at all.
 * 2) Collins mentions misogyny in hip hop culture on pages 82, 130, 133, 160, and 253. Nowhere does she link the portrayal of African American men "as submitting to wild instinct or bodily impulses" to misogyny in hip hop culture.
 * 3) The last sentence about internalization is redundant because the paragraph begins with: "Adams and Fuller (2006) suggest that one of the reasons why rap artists use misogynistic lyrics in their music is that they have internalized negative stereotypes about women that are prevalent in American society". There is no need to repeat the same idea about internalization.

This is why I removed the addition before and will remove it again. This article was nominated for deletion twice because it used to be a big mess of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH dealing with "the breakdown of the poor black family" rather than "misogyny in hip hop culture". Please do not reinsert information that is not about misogyny in hip hop culture. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 17:06, 28 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Similarly so I have issue with the citation from Cole, Johnnetta B.; Guy-Sheftall, Berverly (2003). Gender Talk: The Struggle for Women's Equality in African American Communities. It takes a quote from Cole on page p. 186. and it's under the Impact title. I feel the opinion isn't solid enough to fall under the "Impacts" title that implies that what Cole is quoted is fact.
 * 58.106.160.16 (talk) 08:43, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Neutrality issues
I read this article and found it to be over-the-top biased. The entire article is based one ONE point of view: the view that hip hop is generally misogynistic. There is no mention of rappers who have been accused of misogyny defending themselves, and the "Rationale" section is practically a psychological analysis of hip hop artists which generalizes them as young, poor, black, materialistic, good-for-nothing human beings which is ridiculous. "Misogyny is prevalent in hip hop culture" is a blatant example of non-neutrality, a morality claim, akin to saying "robbery is prevalent among African-American populations." Wikipedia is supposed to represent sides of an issue fairly which this article by no means does. The authors of this article also demonstrate poor knowledge of hip hop, as no context is provided for the Eminem and Tyler, the Creator songs—has it ever occurred to you that these songs could be interpreted to have a non-misogynistic meaning?

I also add that some of the information in the article is plain wrong. "Gangsta rap, the most commercially successful subgenre of hip hop" isn't by any means a fact, and neither is "Rap music is by far the most popular music genre for 8- to-18-year-olds."

In summary this article is extremely non-objective, displays a poor understanding of hip hop culture, and it backed up by weak claims. Please, separate fact and opinion.

Thoughts? Ideas to improve? This article needs a major revamping.

esotericeyes (talk) 02:11, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Removed "Rap music is by far the most popular music genre for 8- to-18-year-olds" as it was total nonsense. Wikipedia and the internet is international. Just thought I'd point that out. The source claims more children listen to country music than rave music. Few adults are fans of country music in the UK, and I'm sure almost no-one under 18 would. Unless someone wants to get severely bullied at school. 109.176.228.104 (talk) 18:12, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The reference you removed states clearly and unambiguously that "Rap and hip-hop are the most popular genres by far, with 65% listening on any given day" (see page 28, left column). If you have reliable sources which contradict this information, please present them here. Until then, I will restore the reference and the sentence in question. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 15:57, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Esoteric eyes, the "Rationale" section gives several explanations for the presence of misogyny in hip hop music: Misogyny in rap music is a reflection of the environment and culture, record executives pressure artists to come up with increasingly violent and offensive lyrics, ethnographic studies link misogyny in rap music to the socialization and gender relations in certain inner-city communities. You will agree that this is quite different from your charge that the section describes rappers as "young, poor, black, materialistic, good-for-nothing human beings". In fact, the section was written in a way to suggest the exact opposite. Several quotes from academics who stress that misogyny is not a "male black thing" are included.

You will also notice that the article is based almost entirely on academic, highly reliable sources. Several studies and estimates of the prevalence of misogyny in hip hop music are cited. Your claim that citing these studies and their findings is a "morality claim" does not appear convincing to me.

If you have reliable sources which contradict the interpretations or sources used in the article, you're very welcome to include them. The sentence which you claim is "plain wrong" is sourced to an academic article which starts with the sentence "Gangsta rap music, the most popular selling subgenre of rap music, is predicated on an essentialized and limited contstuction of masculinity" (see opening paragraph).

I will remove your tag and advise you to read NPOV dispute. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 15:57, 3 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Personally I believe that this article is far from neutral and I am especially concerned with the following points.

FM [ talk to me  |  show contributions  ]  15:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * As per Esotericeyes no context is given for the Eminem or Tyler lyrics.
 * Little to no comments from any artists accused of being mysogynistic saying what they thought (theres gotta be some out there).
 * I am uncomfortable with this statement Of the 14 songs on the The Marshall Mathers LP 11 contain violent and misogynistic lyrics which reads as if the article is making these accusations against Eminem.
 * The caption for the Kanye video is one sided. For example a Spin writer defended the video as a "surreal response to hip-hop misogyny". It also should probably be noted about the disclaimer at the beginning which states, "the following content is in no way to be interpreted as misogynistic or negative towards any groups of people. It is an art piece and it shall be taken as such."
 * Hip hop is a [...] genre in which authenticity has been identified with masculinity. By whom? For how long? I guess looking at certain strands that could be correct but no way is that an objective view of authenticity.


 * I think that the sources criticize lyrics or videos as misogynistic, not people, but I'm sure that you can cite the relevant sentence or passage where someone is accused of being misogynistic. Please do. You are welcome to read the Armstrong study which found that "Violent and misogynist lyrics are found in eleven of the album's fourteen songs. Worse still, nine of the eleven songs depict killing women, with drowning becoming a new modus operandi. Comparing the lyric content of gangsta rap music's foundational period with that of Eminem shows the following: In terms of violent and misogynist lyrics, gangsta rap music (1987-1993) scores a 22 percent while Eminem (2000) reaches 78 percent." I'm not quite sure what you mean by context. Do you want a detailed description of the depicted killings or the lyrics that lead up to the dscribed violence? Please note that we must work with reliable sources and that there is not way to provide a "context" that you or I think is important if the source that analyses the lyrics or some other source dealing with misogyny in hip hop doesn't mention it.
 * The caption says that the video was criticized as misogynistic which is what happened and since this is the Misogyny in hip hop culture article, it seemed like a fitting caption. I am not necessarily opposed to using more sources, including West's warning and the reactions to it. Is it an improvement? I don't think so and this article isn't supposed to turn into some Kanye West coatrack. But if you think it necessary to say that West stated that the severed heads, the hanged model bodies etc. weren't meant to offend and that critics didn't buy his predictable explanation, alright, let's do it.
 * Those are interesting questions and I'm sorry that the source doesn't answer them. But there is no such requirement. Sources must be reliable and support the claims. Do you dispute that the reference given states that certain developments in the industry "have resulted in hip hop authenticity becoming synonymous with black masculinity"? I suppose we could add that this applies to gangsta rap in particular per these additional sources.
 * I don't think that it would improve the article if we included reactions like Tyler's "If Tegan And Sara Need Some Hard Dick, Hit Me Up", the poem that was attributed to Jay-Z or random statements by artists who swear up and down that it's art and that they are misunderstood. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 19:19, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Overall I think this article brings up interesting points, however I think it could be cleaned up and made stronger in a few ways.
 * I agree with previous comments about the lack of insight from rappers discussing misogyny in hip hop. since the article focuses on misogyny in rap lyrics and music video imagery, I would like to see more quotes from hip hop producers discussing the motivations for presenting women in these ways..
 * I'm also concerned that certain statements in particular don't hold up to the Wikipedia standards of neutrality and that they need more referencing. This statement in particular seemed like an example of this. The article says, "In this case, when crowds demanded more violent, and offensive lyrics, women were an easy target, because of the large stigma around racial topics. The genre of hip-hop music has a large audience among minorities, and if artists are violent and offensive towards Hispanic, or Black communities for example, the music will be received more negatively." This statement seems wild vague and also lacks any kind of evidence to back it up. It just doesn't sound neutral to me, it sounds more  like a personal opinion. I'd like to se reference points for why misogyny became popularized in hip hop and that's something I'm willing to work on adding to this article if that seems reasonable. Bustelo&#38;mezcal (talk) 04:20, 16 November 2016 (UTC)bustelo&mezcal

One-sided
This entire article is very biased. It fails to mention firstly that the majority of hip hop artists are playing characters to describe the harsh reality of ghetto life and often describe situations in the first person that they themselves would consider immoral. Ice-T famously said of his song Cop Killer, "If you believe I'm a cop killer, you believe David Bowie's an astronaut". Many rappers known for misogynistic lyrics are real life pro-feminists, such as Jay-Z. Secondly, a lot of the "misogynistic" content of hip hop music and music videos is only considered such by some feminists. Whilst radical feminists would state that the display of sexuality in rap videos is part of patriachal objectification, other pro-sexual feminists would argue that they empower women and fight misogynistic ideas of women not enjoying sex as much as men. Thirdly, it is not just women who are hated and called untrustworthy in rap music. In hip hop, no one is to be trusted, and men are often described much worse than women. Now, I'm not saying that there is no misogyny in hip hop, but it is important for the article to reflect the other point of view, rather than this biased, one-sided essay that defies all Wikipedia non-bias guidelines. 220.244.162.100 (talk) 06:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

women in hip hop

I think that this article speaks volumes. Misogyny is a very powerful act in the hip hop world. The disgrace that male hip hop artists bring to women, is very heartbreaking. They objectify us women as a source of power. They slander the women with their lyrics. They are used as a sex symbol as well. As for the article itself, I felt that it had a lot of information. I like how it mentioned Kanye West on the side about his role in his video. For Suggestions I would suggest adding more information on the background of hip hop. For example how hip hop was formed, when women started to be a focus of hip hop, etc. I also think the article should've included information about women who know which lyrics are about them in a song. I would like to see some more artists that use hip hop as a way to exploit women. Ladyrondo2 (talk) 02:27, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree that it is one-sided. The article takes for granted the feminist standpoint that all sexual portrayals of women victimize them. Better to stick to a neutral point of view and reference third party criticisms. Krehel (talk) 15:28, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

misogyny in hip hop
MBAILEY004 (talk) 04:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

using the Eminem example was biased. the section of authenticity could have been explained more in depth. talk about how were these violent lyrics demanded (if they were) and why. the wider African american gender conflict viewpoint is very short. much needs to be added. the beginnings of hip hop as it relates to African-Americans should be spoken about and then connected to the gendered language and roles that have existed in hip hop.

hip hop culture extends into more than just music and rap, but the article just focused on music. being that it is a culture, misogyny and gender language in dancing, djing and other elements of hip hop should be mentioned. MBAILEY004 (talk) 04:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Statistics
Statistics should be shown of the sales of both men and women who patronize Hip Hop artists with misogyny lyrics to get a better idea of the discrepancy or lack thereof, on finding out the primary contributors in business transactions of derogatory Hip Hop lyrics towards women. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sage Cadence (talk • contribs) 10:05, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

General Criticism
In light of the discussion on this talk page about the need to significantly rework, or even delete, this article, I have been examining it more closely in the past few days. I have made, and will continue to make, small edits for clarity and overall cohesiveness. However, much more significant edits are needed to address some of my main concerns.

A few of these concerns are that:


 * The premise of the article “misogyny in Hip Hop Culture” seems to regard the significance of this problem as a hard fact, rather than a highly-charged political issue in the United States. I think that this is where previous criticisms that this article sounds like an “essay” may stem from. The article assumes the validity of its title without questioning where the outcry against misogyny in hip hop comes from. It never addresses the question of why we have an article detailing misogyny in Hip Hop, but not ones detailing the myriad other forms of misogyny that permeate every aspect of the patriarchal society we live in.
 * The article fails to address the racial disparity between the way white women and women of color are portrayed in rap music.
 * The article fails to discuss the role of white audiences in promoting the objectification and hyper-sexualization of Black and Latina women.
 * The article could use more responses from hip hop feminists as well as LGBTQ hip hop artists

here are some more detailed critiques of the first half of the article:

Title
 * As I familiarize myself more and more with this article I tend to agree that the title should be changed from “Misogyny in Hip Hop Culture” to “Misogyny in Rap Music” since the content of the article specifically focuses on rap lyrics, music videos and the obstacles faced by female rap artists, rather than on misogyny as experienced in all four pillars of Hip hop. As stated earlier by, the article doesn’t cover break dancing, djing, or graffiti, let alone the fifth pillar of Hip Hop, self-knowledge. This does not mean that misogyny doesn’t exist in other areas of Hip Hop culture, it just means that the article would have to cover these areas in order for this title to be appropriate.
 * If no one objects, I intend to change the title myself. If this causes controversy and someone wants to revert it, I would suggest that they add sections that provide evidence of misogyny in b-boying/b-girling, graffiti, and djing.

Rational
 * The section titled “street authenticity” strays far from its initial point, is written incoherently, and ultimately makes unverifiable claims that sound pretty racist. Besides being incoherent and lacking any form of relevant citation, the final phrase sounds basically like racist guess work, “In this case, when crowds demanded more violent, and offensive lyrics, women were an easy target, because of the large stigma around racial topics. The genre of hip-hop music has a large audience among minorities, and if artists are violent and offensive towards Hispanic, or Black communities for example, the music will be received more negatively. Hip Hop around the world, is notorious for misogyny, gang violence, and sexism.[21]” These reverse logic statements should be removed.
 * The section titled “channeling of wider cultural misogyny” is somewhat repetitive, however it seems more cohesive and well-cited than the previous paragraph. I think that it should be moved to the beginning of the “rational” section, since it provides a societal context for the following rationales.
 * The study by Elijah Anderson mentioned in the section titled “Wider Black American gender conflict” seems like it ties into the question of street authenticity, and I think those two sections could be combined. Also the sentence “But today the Black woman magazine is embarking on a 12 month campaign to challenge the prevalence of misogyny and sexism in hip hop lyrics and videos” seems out of place in the context of the rest of the paragraph. Is it a reference to the Essence campaign of the early 2000s? If so it needs to restructured cause its out of date. It also lacks any form of citation. If it is meant to reference the Essence campaign I think that it should be deleted because the same information can already be found under the response section where it makes more sense.
 * I intend to add a final section entitled “White American Consumption of Misogyny in Hip Hop.”

Hunter.od (talk) 03:58, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Misogynistic themes
 * this section of the article is somewhat repetitive as it currently stands and also it lacks flow. The ideas don't connect in a cohesive order, so without adding or subtracting to much information I intend to restructure this paragraph a little bit to tighten it up. Hunter.od (talk) 01:25, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Prevalence
 * I am removing this sentence from the beginning of the paragraph because it seems to pose a value judgement rather than a fact "Misogyny is prevalent in hip hop culture. For hip-hop intellectuals, hip-hop provides fascinating insight into formations of race, gender, region, and nation, as well as culture, politics, economics, and history. [42]"Hunter.od (talk) 02:16, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Overall Critique — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bustelo&mezcal (talk • contribs) 03:23, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Rename to Misogyny in rap music
I know I am not the first to say this, but the article seems to be about misogyny in rap music, not misogyny in hip hop culture. It should be renamed. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 06:27, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

I have moved the page, we need to follow the sources. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 03:06, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

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