Talk:Miss Cleo/Archive 1

Removed line
Removed this line: "Also, Modest Mouse referred to Miss Cleo in their hit song "Float On" ("A fake Jamaican took every last dime with that scam")." since there is no explicit source stating the lyric is about Miss Cleo, and also because the next line in the song is "It was worth it just to learn some sleight of hand", hinting that the jamacan scam artist was some sort of three card monty thing.


 * Wow, way to be completely literal, guy. You know of any other "fake Jamaicans" in pop culture? --98.217.8.46 (talk) 17:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Gay Icon Project
In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 21:44, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Article is a mess
Is this article about Miss Cleo, the character, the fradulent psychic hotline, or Youree Harris, the actress with a somewhat questionable background? Eventually the article needs to be rewritten with some internal consisency. hateless 22:23, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Get to it then instead of expecting others to do it

Correction
True, this article was a mess. It has been updated by Wahgwaan Entertainment Inc. and Ms. Harris' legal counsel. For any additional information, please contact www.wahgwaanentertainment.com.
 * Tried going to the site today, can not retrieve it on either IE, Firefox, or Safari. DWolf2k2 (talk) 06:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Still doesn't work...I'm happy to see such an unbiased and obviously truthful group has decided to involve themselves :P 71.193.243.8 (talk) 03:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 00:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Grammar & style cleanup
As of 5 October 2007, I've tried to clean this article up by streamlining the presentation of references and information, adding some more up-to-date and descriptive links, and consolidating information along a timeline. Regarding photos, several are available on the Wahgwaan Entertainment site, but I'm not certain of copyright issues. I will try to locate a photo from another source and recheck all of the previously-included links as time allows. Feedback would be greatly appreciated. --H v fisher 23:11, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Miss Cleo's Tarot Power
I just added a small bit at the end of "Psychic Readers Network" about the Tarot deck she illustrated. I don't know how to get one of those little numbery thingies in brackets (citations?) after the sentence but here's the source: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/miss-cleo-tarot-power/review.shtml Thanks to whoever adds this as the source of that info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.253.136 (talk) 14:38, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Taken care of. --UnicornTapestry (talk) 19:26, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Problems persist
As far back as 2006, we have complaints about this article. According to a comment above, Wahgwaan Entertainment (whatever the hell they are) claims they and Cleo's law firm updated the article. Apparently they don't believe in citations, legal, Wikipedian, or otherwise. Several unexplained and uncited problems regarding statements remain in article. For example:


 * Ms. Harris herself was sued only by the State of Florida, however, because Florida law allows a "spokesperson" to be sued as well as the company he or she represents.

Spokesmen can be sued in any state under the Statute of Frauds, UCC. The article further claims


 * The suit against Harris was later dropped on the condition that she waive her right to sue the state regarding the case.

I don't believe that statement is accurate or representative of the facts, nor does it make much sense. Rather I seem to recall Harris invoked the 5th Amendment and a settlement was reached and it did not favour Miss Cleo.

Further to that, the article mentioned only 2 states she was sued in, when at least 9 states and the federal government sued her and the Psychic Friends Network. (now corrected)

The article seems to distance Cleo from PFN and the article suggests she earned only $13,500,000, but news reports from the era suggest more money and deeper involvement. It is possible Harris earned $13.5M while she and PRN agreed to 'forgive' $500M in customer billing, but the mists of psychic settlements are not wholly clear.

--UnicornTapestry (talk) 19:24, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

==Grand Theft Auto Vice City= She had a small role in the first Vice City as the leader of a gang. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.121.41.50 (talk) 19:57, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

This is a BLP
And no, I don't think the previous version of this article is "well-sourced". The very fact that it has to be slapped with a POV tag indicates we have a problem. Sources like the Smoking Gun, Court TV, Wahgwaan Entertainment (what is that anyway?), obscure local papers and tv stations are more or less sensationalistic tabloids of one form or another.

There are probably a couple of decent sources in there that could be used but given that this is a BLP let's play it safe here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Wiping the article out like that in one blast is disruptive. Do not do this again.  Whether one likes the sources or not does not have any bearing on whether they are considered reliable sources per Wikipedia's definition of the term.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 19:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not about liking or not liking them, it's about the fact that they are sensationalist junk being used in a BLP article. THAT'S disruptive.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Again, sensationalist or not does not affect whether or not it is considered "reliable" by our definition. SchuminWeb (Talk) 19:23, 26 July 2011 (UTC)


 * So the fact that this is a BLP means absolutely nothing to you? And you're an administrator?Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:31, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "Be very firm about the use of high quality sources."Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:33, 26 July 2011 (UTC)


 * It's my understanding that both CourtTV and SmokingGun have been discussed at RSN and deemed to qualify as reliable sources. Both are operated by large media companies.   Will Beback    talk    21:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I see material is also being deleted that's sourced to Slate (magazine), on the grounds that it isn't a reliable source either. Could editors please explain why they do not think these are reliable sources?    Will Beback    talk    23:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't have a problem with the existing sources. We just need more of them in a few spots.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 01:45, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Will Beback, I assume you're referring to the Slate piece entitled "Yah, Mon, I predict you're going to jail.", and written by someone who claims to be in a personal financial dispute with the subject of the article? Is this the sort of high quality sources that we're going to be insisting upon for biographies of living persons? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:12, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm referring to a large number of deleted sources and cited material. In this instance, the Slate article is titled "With Psychic Friends Like These …: The lawsuits pile up for Miss Cleo" written by Dahlia Lithwick, a senior editor. I don't see any indication that it's an opinion piece. See also the concerns about the other deleted sources, above.   Will Beback    talk    01:23, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Removed material
I removed some material from a dead link and also it didn't really seem that relevant or mentioned in any type of context. --Malerooster (talk) 00:49, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

WTF?
I turned to his article to help source an assignment on Miss Cleo and found it so gutted as to be useless. Little to no mention seems to be made of the various suits and bans against her. Are the pro-Cleo forces controlling this article? 07:58, 11 May 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.1.205.148 (talk)

WP:NPOV issue
I believe that making the claim that someone is a psychic is to imply that there really are "psychics" and by extension that psychic phenomena are real. This is a controversial and hotly debated subject. And I believe that for an article to make such a claim is a violation of Wikipedia's policy of always writing with a neutral point of view, stating a personal opinion rather than stating an unbiased fact. I have two suggestions for correcting this: (Please note that I deleted the reference only to avoid cluttering up this talk page with references; for the actual correction to the article, the reference would be retained.) I would be interested in what other editors have to say about this. (Before I change an existing article, I always like to allow time for others to express their opinions.) Richard27182 (talk) 06:43, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Youree Dell Harris (born August 12, 1962), better known as Miss Cleo, is an American who describes herself as a psychic and shaman, who achieved fame as a spokeswoman for a psychic pay-per-call service from 1997 to 2003.
 * Youree Dell Harris (born August 12, 1962), better known as Miss Cleo, is an American "psychic" and "shaman" who achieved fame as a spokeswoman for a psychic pay-per-call service from 1997 to 2003.


 * It has been a week since I posted the above and there has been no response, either for or against. I have gone ahead and made one of the changes I proposed.  If anyone disagrees with it, please discuss it here. Richard27182 (talk) 07:31, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
 * A psychic is someone who claims to have psychic powers; the only way I can imagine someone being a fake psychic is if you pretend that you're in the field (e.g. some sort of undercover operation) without really participating in it. Same with shamans: you're a leading practitioner of shamanism, engaging in its rituals and being seen by other practitioners as a leader.  As long as others consider you a leader in shamanistic practice, you're a shaman; a fake shaman is someone who sets herself up as one unilaterally.  Concepts like this don't have licensing bureaus, and you can use these titles without proving that you have these powers.  Nyttend (talk) 15:26, 4 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello      I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree with your definition of a psychic as "someone who claims [emphasis added] to have psychic powers."  Most reputable sources define the noun form of "psychic" as someone who actually has such powers.  Please check out the following links:
 * http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/psychic
 * http://www.ldoceonline.com/Psychology,+Psychiatry-topic/psychic_1
 * http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definition/psychic
 * http://www.yourdictionary.com/psychic
 * I did not just go ahead and revert your edit because that's how edit wars start and I do not engage in edit warring. For the time being I have made no changes to the article.  But I do feel that the current wording in the article does not meet Wikipedia standards of NPOV.  If "describes herself as a psychic" is unsatisfactory to you, I believe we can work out language which will be mutually satisfactory.  I believe we can resolve this dispute without the need for anything more formal than that.  Please let me know your feelings on this matter. Richard27182 (talk) 09:32, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Those are all comparatively untrustworthy sources; even the first one, with its Britannica affiliation, is rooted in one produced by a linguistic idiot whose dictionary had a ton of problems, partly because he actively changed parts of it to fit an agenda. If you go with a scholarly dictionary, you'll get different results.  The Oxford English Dictionary says otherwise with their only relevant definition: A person who is regarded as particularly susceptible to supernatural or paranormal influence; a medium; a clairvoyant.  Same concept with the final words: a medium is someone regarded as having these powers [it's a really long definition], and a clairvoyant is One who possesses, or is alleged to possess, the faculty of clairvoyance.  So you're right in saying that it's not someone who claims, but I'm right in saying that it doesn't imply that the person has these abilities.  Believe me, I'm as sceptical as you on whether she actually has these abilities, but putting it in scare quotes or saying "she claims to be a psychic" actively implies that we reject her: that's equally non-neutral.  With concepts like this, if you regard "is a psychic" as assuming that she's got these powers, you really can't come up with a neutral descriptor.  Because simply calling someone a psychic is much more common than actively questioning it, the current wording will be much more readily understood as normal, while saying that she's self-described will be much more readily understood as presenting only an opposing point of view.  Nyttend (talk) 11:29, 5 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello        I don't believe that The Oxford English Dictionary's definition of a "psychic,"  "a person who is regarded as [emphasis added] particularly susceptible to supernatural or paranormal influence,"  supports your case.  Some people may regard them that way, but plenty of people do not.  In order to qualify, I would think that the regarding as susceptible to supernatural influence etc. would need to be the general consensus.  And that is certainly not the case, especially among the scientific community.       The reason I chose "describes herself as a psychic" is it's the most neutral phrase I could think of, neither supporting belief in nor rejecting a belief in people with supernatural powers.  But I would be open to virtually any wording that did not flat out say she is a psychic.  How about "regarded by many as a psychic"?"  (That would be about as literally true (and unbiased) as possible, and it would at least indirectly imply that not all people believe in it.)  Or perhaps you would have something else to suggest.       As I indicated in my previous message, I really believe we can work this out between ourselves without any need for any kind of formal dispute resolution.       Just one last thing; I keep irregular hours and often don't get to check my computer for many hours at a time, so my future responses will probably not be as quick as this one was.  But I will always reply. Richard27182 (talk) 13:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
 * If she weren't regarded by many people as having supernatural powers, she wouldn't have become famous in the least; she would just be another crank. Again, "regarded by many as a psychic" is obviously a way of weaseling out of the situation and making it obvious that we reject her claims.  Any idiot will realise that we're not being neutral.  We must be very careful to be actually neutral, which since the beginning has involved "present[ing] ideas and facts in such a fashion that both supporters and opponents can agree".  Supporters won't agree with wording that all-but-says that we reject her.  Nyttend (talk) 20:35, 5 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello      First let's congratulate ourselves on the civil, diplomatic manner in which we're handling this.  I'm sure there are plenty of other editors who would already be edit warring by now.      I think we're in full agreement that all Wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral, unbiased point of view; our only difference is over the specific language to use to accomplish that in this particular case.      I do not deny that there are some people (even some dictionaries) that would define the word "psychic" very generally to include not just someone who actually has supernatural powers (if such a thing existed), but also someone who just acted the role whether or not they had any special powers.  But there are probably just as many who would define "psychic" more literally as someone who actually has such powers.  And the problem is that when they read the article and see that "Miss Cleo is a psychic........" it looks like Wikipedia is claiming that some people actually have supernatural powers.  And that is anything but NPOV.      If we were to write something like  Miss Cleo pretends to be a psychic  or  Miss Cleo is a so-called psychic  or  Miss Cleo is a "psychic,"  then it would be obvious that we were rejecting her claims.  But to simply say that she "describes herself as a psychic" really does nothing but make a simple, unbiased, non-judgmental statement of fact that clearly indicates what her claim to fame is, without buying into the claim.  I don't think any of her supporters or any of her opponents would disagree that she describes herself as a psychic.  I believe that you are sincere in trying to avoid having the article sound biased in one direction, but are doing so at the cost of appearing biased in the other direction.      I've offered my best attempts at a truly NPOV description of what makes Miss Cleo famous.  But I am very flexible; and if you can come up with anything better (in terms of being truly NPOV in either direction), I'll be happy to go along with it.  I would settle for virtually anything that does not make an unmitigated declaration that she is indeed a psychic. Richard27182 (talk) 10:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but you are more and more convincing me that you are not interested in creating a page equally acceptable to her and her opponents. As I note above, everyone will understand that "alleged psychic" or "claims to be a psychic" or the like is a way of discrediting her without officially saying it, because normal usage (just like Wikipedia; see the first sentence of the psychic article) of the term doesn't demand that the user accept the person's claim or others' beliefs about the person.  It's easy to find people using such a phrase while rejecting their claims; a quick Google search found pages like, .  Conversely, virtually everything that I find that uses something like "claims to be a psychic" is actively critical, e.g. , and I'm having trouble finding people using such a phrase while accepting their claims.  If you're using language only employed by one side of a debate instead of language employed by both perspectives, you're identifying yourself with that side, regardless of the dictionary meanings that you're still not accepting: your words carry a connotation of scepticism, regardless of their denotation.  The final sentence of Writing for the opponent is conclusive: "Wikipedia's NPOV policy must not be misused so it becomes synonymous with revisionism, censorship, whitewashing, or political correctness".  It's indeed being misused so that it becomes synonymous with scepticism.  Nyttend (talk) 11:36, 6 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello .     Sadly it has become obvious that our one-on-one discussion here is never going to lead to anything even remotely resembling an agreement.  So I have added this issue to the DRN.      I am hopeful and optimistic that the addition of a moderator to the mix may create an atmosphere where we may eventually find a convergence, maybe not of our opinions, but at least of what we are willing to accept for the Miss Cleo article.  My understanding is that I am supposed to notify all editors who are involved or have been involved in the dispute.  (So far that's just you and me.)  So just to make it official, I will post a copy of this message on your user talk page.  May I make the suggestion that, if you respond, you do so on the article talk page, just so there will be a page with a complete record of our conversation; but of course where and even whether you respond is entirely your own prerogative.      I find it truly regrettable that it has come to this.  But I feel it is the appropriate thing to do at this point. Richard27182 (talk) 06:46, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I saw this at DRN, and I agree with Richard on this. I see nothing non-neutral in saying that she describes herself as a psychic. It's a verifiable statement and implies nothing further. Saying that she is a psychic is less neutral. Dictionary definitions are fine, but when reading an article, the average reader will probably not look up the strict definition of a word if s/he is already familiar with the word. In my opinion, if we state that she is a psychic, it will often be read as indicating that she does have psychic powers. Saying that she describes herself as a psychic doesn't have the same effect in the opposite direction; rather, it avoids the issue. Omnedon (talk) 13:29, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * This issue has been discussed many times at Fringe theories/Noticeboard (for example, here) and those discussions inevitably point back to the 2007 ArbCom Paranormal case in which ArbCom held (here) that"'Psychic' or 'clairvoyant' and similar terms are cultural artifacts, not people or things which necessarily exist. A psychic may not have psychic abilities, nor does use of the term imply that such abilities exist."and also held (here)"The use of a link to paranormal in the introduction of an article serves to frame the matter. Links to psychic, new age, or occult serve the same purpose."I do not think that the qualifiers are needed so long as the word psychic is linked. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 14:04, 7 August 2015 (UTC) PS: Let me add to that: ArbCom is not empowered, per ArbCom policy,  to make decisions about content matters and, thus, ArbCom findings of principle and findings of fact are not binding or precedential decisions about content matters. Those findings are merely the platform or basis of the decision made in and for the purposes of that particular case, but they are also highly influential and are the carefully-considered evaluation of some of the most trusted members of this community. As such, they are not to be lightly disregarded. —  TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 14:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi, I am the mediator assigned to this topic from the Dispute resolution noticeboard. I do not understand why this discussion has gone on for so long. It seems pretty clear cut to me, and keep in mind this is not due to personal beliefs but due to my research. The page Psychic states, "A psychic is a person who claims to use extrasensory perception (ESP) to identify information hidden from the normal senses." That is literally the first sentence. There is no need to put that she claims she is psychic because already a psychic is a person who claims to use powers. The word psychic is linked in the article and I do not think that there is much more to it. There is not a need to put that she claims she is psychic unless readers are thoroughly confused which I do not think is the case. These are just the facts and not my opinion so please do not feel like I am being wrongful. Of course you can continue to argue but I dont think that that will be productive in this case as it is so clear cut. Also thay might lead to an edit war which can be pusishable by blocks. If there is no discussion within 24 hours, I will close the case because either way, it is not the end of the world, both could be deemed correct, and there are other cases that would be more seserving of my time. Thanks,  The Editor of All Things Wikipedia  《Talk》 00:46, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

User:TransporterMan, User:Omnedon, User:Richard27182, User:Nyttend


 * First of all, if you don't understand why this has gone on this long, to me that's indicative of a problem right there. There are clearly at least two different ways of viewing this, and whenever I see the claim "these are just the facts and not my opinion" it tends to make me wonder -- especially when in the previous sentence you use the phrase "which I do not think is the case".  I'm sorry, but this seems more like judging a case than mediating a disagreement.  The two are entirely different. Omnedon (talk) 01:23, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

--Please continue this discussion on this page: Dispute resolution noticeboard under the correct heading-- Omnedon, when I said "I do not think this is the case", I was saying that I dont think that anyone reading the article is confused one way or the other, I was not talking about one side or the other being better or being better supported by facts, I was simply supporting the idea that either way, it is not the end of the world so please dl not twist my words in the future. And I said "these are just the facts and not my opinion" so that people who are suspicious like you can just take that and not feel ganged up against. Honestly, I wouldnt care either way because both in my eyes can be correct. But from a factual point of view, the facts seem to support the side of leaving out the extra words. In the end, this has to go one way or the other and this is all about helping one side bend out of their comfort zone to let the other side prevail. And I am just throwing out there that one side seems to be more supported. I beleive that you are straying off topic by critisizing me and should be focused on the topic at hand while trusting that I will not take sides and will be impartial. Thank You, continue it on the correct page,  The Editor of All Things Wikipedia  《Talk》 01:46, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not "suspicious" -- but in your first message here you come down solidly on one side. That's not the role of a mediator. So naturally I question your statement that "these are just the facts". This is a situation where there are points on both sides. It's not your role to simply decide which is correct -- not if you continue to use the term "mediator". I would also point out that a good mediator will not be so readily offended as you clearly are. You point out some items that you feel favor one side; but there are items on the other side as well. Omnedon (talk) 01:56, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Just to note a couple of procedural points: First, TEoATW is now indefinitely blocked and has stated on his talk page that he won't be back. Second, I'm a regular volunteer over at DRN though I've come into this case as a regular editor and not wearing my DRN volunteer's hat. I'm going to say this in the abstract and I do not want it to be taken as either an approval or a criticism of what TEoATW has said here or at DRN, but there is no one required form of dispute resolution at DRN and volunteers are free to either attempt to mediate a case, like what happens at MEDCOM, which is what most commonly happens there, or to simply issue an opinion about what what they see as best, like what happens at WP:3O, or some combination of the two. Depending on the circumstances, one is ordinarily more appropriate than the other and I've done all three during my time there (which has been pretty much since the beginning of that noticeboard). So I'll not support the criticism of TEoATW for merely issuing an opinion rather than mediating, but whether it was appropriate for this particular case or whether he did it well is another issue altogether and one which is, at this point, largely moot. Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 16:26, 10 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi .     I know you wrote the above message for Omnedon, but I read it and learned something from it.  So far I have been in only one DRN case, and the moderator (Robert McClenon) handled it the way Omnedon and I were expecting the Miss Cleo case to be handled.  I was not aware until you pointed it out that there are other approaches a moderator may take in moderating a DRN case.  Between this and our message exchanges on my talk page, I'm learning a lot from you.  (By the way, please see my new message to you on my talk page.)  I am most grateful to you for your time and patience. Richard27182 (talk) 05:58, 11 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The fact that the editor is blocked is irrelevant to the criticism of the approach taken, and I stand by it. If one is going to apply the term "mediation", then coming in and deciding that one side is correct in the very first communication is entirely inappropriate. That might be a form of "dispute resolution", but then one could also simply make a decision and close the discussion and call it that. The word mediation implies reconciliation and compromise. Looking for points of agreement and disagreement. Getting to the core of the dispute and trying to work it out with all involved parties. Naturally every case will be different, but the approach taken here was in no way helpful. Omnedon (talk) 11:49, 11 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Pinging:          Omnedon, I agree with you in principle with everything you're saying about what mediated dispute resolution should be.  I think the point that TransporterMan is making here is that that's not the way DRN works in the world of Wikipedia.  Apparently the rules governing DRN allow the moderator to act as an impartial moderator OR just state his own personal opinion OR just about any combination of the two or anything in between.  That doesn't seem to make sense because if someone wants a single opinion they would file under WP:THIRDOPINION.  In my opinion there should be some dispute resolution forum which specifically guarantees an impartial neutral moderator moderating the discussion.  But there doesn't seem to be one (except perhaps that MEDCOM thing TransporterMan mentioned, but I'm not familiar with that.)   Which brings me to a few questions for TransporterMan:
 * In the future, if I need to file something for DRN, would it be OK to specify that I would prefer that the moderator take the impartial approach? Or would that be inappropriate?
 * Once the Miss Cleo DRN is closed, is it permissible for me personally to file the RFC; or would I be ineligible since I'm one of the original editors involved in the dispute?
 * If I am allowed to personally file the RFC, is it sufficient that I just follow the instructions at Requests for comment?
 * Thank you both for your time and for any helpful suggestions you can provide. Richard27182 (talk) 10:12, 12 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Taking your bullet points first: Asking for mediation rather than opinion-giving would be fine and, indeed, it's what you're usually going to get at DRN — opinion-giving there, while permitted, is actually pretty rare and ordinarily limited to those cases where unmistakably there is only one correct outcome under Wikipedia policy. Yes, you can file the RFC yourself and just following those instructions is the normal way to do it. Note that most RFC's run for 30 days and, though it doesn't say it on the RFC page, due to the rules at 3O, DRN, and MEDCOM, no case will be accepted in those venues while the RFC is pending and any cases which are pending when the RFC is filed will be closed. Back to your point about 3O vs DRN vs MEDCOM: 3O is only available when there are exactly two editors involved in the dispute, so it's not going to be available all of the time. Moreover, 3O's don't "count" towards consensus, they're opinions and opinions only which the disputants are free to accept or reject. A DRN volunteer's opinion can count towards consensus. The Mediation Committee (MEDCOM) — and let me note for the sake of full disclosure that I'm a committee member, though I'm not speaking here on behalf of the Committee or while wearing my member hat — provides more or less "pure" formal mediation. So in some ways, DRN splits the difference between 3O and MEDCOM. Note that all three venues have requirements that volunteers be neutral as to the dispute and disputants, so saying "just state his personal opinion" misses the point that — whether it happens at 3O or at DRN — the opinion should be coming from someone who has a dispassionate and impartial view towards what's going on in the dispute. Finally, let me note that if this discussion is going to be much more extended that except perhaps for the RFC stuff that it's way off topic here and probably ought to move somewhere else. Best regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 13:27, 12 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi .     I absolutely agree with you 100% that the Miss Cleo talk page has gotten way off topic.  For any future questions/answers/discussions, we can use your user talk page or my user talk page (with a ping); let me know which you would prefer.      I do have another question regarding the Miss Cleo dispute:
 * Once the DRN is closed (assuming it's unsuccessful), I do plan to file an RFC. Concerning categories to use in the rfc template, I was planning on using: Biographies; Language and linguistics; Maths, science, and technology; and Religion and philosophy.  I believe these would cover all the bases concerning the nature of the issue.  Would it be permissible for me to include all four categories?  I'd like to include all four if I'm allowed.
 * I'm not sure whether or not this is of interest, but for what it's worth yesterday was Miss Cleo's birthday. That's about all I can think of for now.  As always, thanks for your help. Richard27182 (talk) 08:08, 13 August 2015 (UTC)


 * You can include whatever categories you consider to be appropriate and I think that the ones you note above are fine, though I might add the "Society, sports, and culture" category as well. You need to decide whether you're only going for consensus in regard to this one Miss Cleo article or whether you're trying to take on the larger issue raised by the ARBCOM findings. (A consensus decision here is not likely to carry over to any other article, since every article stands on its own, and individual articles are not, ordinarily, the place to establish encyclopedia-wide precedent.) If you want to do the latter — and I have to say that of those two I think that would be the one more likely to succeed, though I also have to say that I doubt that either will do so (but FSM knows I've been wrong before) — this is not the place to do it. See my original posting on your talk page for where that effort ought to go (and what you ought to do before). And, yes, if we're going to talk about anything other than a proposed RFC in regard to this Miss Cleo article, it ought to be on one or the other of our talk pages, probably yours (which I have watchlisted for the nonce, but or  me if you leave a note there for me and I don't respond promptly). Best regards,  TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 13:25, 13 August 2015 (UTC)