Talk:Mission San Juan Capistrano

The Precontact section should be a separate article
This discussion has been moved to Talk:Spanish missions in California. Mdhennessey (talk) 06:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The Mission Industries section is not neutral
I almost edited the section, but being new to Wikipedia, and realizing that this might be controversial, I'm talking first.

This section presents the local Indian people from the viewpoint of the missionaries rather than from their own viewpoint. For historical accuracy, it's important to include the missionaries' point of view, but also to point out that the missionaries' views were ethnocentric (judging the Indian people by the standards of the Spanish culture of the time). A neutral point of view would use cultural relativism, presenting the Indian culture according to its own standards.

For example, the section reads: Prior to the establishment of the missions, the native peoples knew only how to utilize bone, seashells, stone, and wood for building, tool making, weapons, and so forth. The missionaries discovered that the Indians, who regarded labor as degrading to the masculine sex, had to be taught industry in order to learn how to be self-supportive''. (Bold added to highlight missionary viewpoint.)

A neutral section would read: In view of the missionaries, the native peoples were deficient in not having the use of metal; they knew only how to utilize bone, seashells, stone, and wood for building, tool making, weapons, and so forth. (From an anthropological point of view, the indigenous people had a complex material culture using a wide variety of locally available materials.) The missionaries felt that the Indians, who regarded labor as degrading to the masculine sex citation needed, had to be taught industry in order to learn how to be self-supportive (though the Indians had supported themselves for millennia before the missionaries arrived). (Bold used to show neutral wording.)

A citation for the complexity of the local indigenous culture (Juaneno or Luiseno; originally Acjachemen) would be Bean and Shipek 1978. (Lowell John Bean and Florence C. Shipek, 1978, "Luiseno", Handbook of North American Indians, Volume 8, California, Smithsonian, pp. 550-563)

Sabbaticalready (talk) 07:37, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree with your analysis and noticed the same neutrality issues. I made two small edits in hopes of bringing more neutrality to the article. Shouldn't be long before somebody comes along and reverts it.

-The Underground —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Underground (talk • contribs) 18:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The Mission Industries section contains unverified statements
Two statements need verification:

A. "the Indians, . . . regarded labor as degrading to the masculine sex"

California Indian women did have many more daily duties, but some activities were exclusively or mostly done by males (such as hunting, woodworking, and making nets, cordage, and luxury goods [Wallace 1978:683-684]), and "reports of husbands helping their wives [with plant gathering] are surprisingly numerous" (Wallace 1978: 683). (Edith Wallace, 1978, "Sexual Status and Role Differences," Handbook of North American Indians, Volume 8, California, Smithsonian, pp. 683 - 689.)

If indigenous men balked at the tasks assigned to them by the padres, perhaps it was the particular kind of "labor" being assigned? A reference would help clarify this.

B. "Everything consumed and otherwise utilized by the natives was produced at the missions under the supervision of the padres"

This statement is suspect since it is absolute and since the indigenous people were self-sufficient before the padres arrived. And since the precontact religion survived in an attenuated form well into the twentieth century, layered with Catholic beliefs and practices (Bean and Shipek 1978:561), it is likely that ritual and shamanic items were made clandestinely or off-site -- not "under the supervision of the padres"!

Sabbaticalready (talk) 07:37, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

HDR photos
I have been taking out the HDR high dynamic range photos contributed by User:DDauri and his IP address 68.36.113.140 because I feel they are more about the art of photography than they are about the mission itself. The photographs feature 'pushed'-style color with greater contrast and detail obtained from taking multiple photographs and combining them. I feel that these images are meant to promote the photographer rather than explain the mission—they scream "Look At Me!"



With 31 images in the article before these were added, the article is not at all lacking in graphic representation. There is simply no need for more photos, especially photos that take focus from the text and turn the attention to photographic concepts or works. Binksternet (talk) 15:42, 18 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't wish to do battle with you. I am new to Wiki and have made errors in uploading image sizes.  I added the images to the "gallery" of the Mission page with the exception of one.  I had no idea that a public "gallery" could not show images in different styles.  You have made it clear to me that you have a significant distaste for any photography that has been altered in any way.  You do have a pension for the dramatic!  Every "image or photo" I ever looked at was there to be "looked at".  And even Ansel Adams manipulated his photographs during the printing process.  You have tunnel vision, and overall I believe that this type of editing based on "your preferences" rather than fact will ultimately hurt Wiki.  I have told you once, and I will say it again, I earn my income through the practice of medicine.  Photography is my hobby, but one that I have done for the better part of 40 years.  I will upload larger images in the future and correct the uploads that are not full size (if I can figure out how). I will also no longer make links to my Flickr page so as not to attract attention "to the photographer", as you suggest.  I would appreciate it if someone in the know would fix my gallery since it appears to have been tampered with and no longer functions.  DDauri (talk) 23:23, 25 July 2010 (UTC)


 * A couple of points: Promotion does not have to be about money, yet it can still be promotion. About distorted images... I have uploaded images that are altered—for instance, several of my images are stitched together from multiple snapshots, with visual distortions associated with stitching software, as clearly seen in my File:Hearst Rancho westside pano.jpg. The difference to me is that good article images highlight the subject of the image rather than the nature of the image itself. If the image distracts the reader into thinking about the way it was made, the art of the image, I think it falls down as a useful encyclopedia illustration, except of course for the article about that kind of image. Say, why don't you select one of your favorite HDR images, uploaded at its highest resolution, and place it at the head of the article High dynamic range imaging? That's where it will be welcome, I bet. Binksternet (talk) 00:48, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

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