Talk:Missouri Fox Trotter

Dubious-discuss
Trails in the Grand Canyon are open to horses in general. See. The people at this place have been guiding rides for 35 years - and say nothing about MFTs. The Kaibab trail is clearly open to equines, not just mules. I find it unbelievable that in the 100+ years people have been touring the Grand Canyon that no one did it with horses (and the native people before that, this link notes the Havasupai had horses on 1770 - word search for "horse") until 2003. I would suggest that this new bit be removed, and in fact, the bit about MFTs in the Grand Canyon that is already there be subjected to some more research for reliable third party sources that don't just parrot the registry. it's an extraordinary claim, particularly given that there are thousands of horses nearby of Mustang, Arabian, Morgan, Appaloosa, old-time Paint and foundation Quarter Horse lines. Montanabw (talk) 05:22, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

OK, I'm beating this to death, but:


 * Kaibab trail in 1962 "Canyon officials prefer to use mules" - horses not banned.
 * Back Country Horsemen of Arizona help clear the Kaibab trail.
 * Mustangs in a group (this year, but shows that while difficult, not extraordinary.

OK, hope that helps. Montanabw (talk) 06:08, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, removed. However, I did find another article about the guys from the Unbranded blog in Western Horseman that said they had to get special permits from the NPS to take horses through the Kaibab... Dana boomer (talk) 13:20, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Foundation Foxtrotter Heritage Association (FFHA)
User:Cmdomino2000 has removed the content re: the Foundation Foxtrotter Heritage Association (FFHA) stating that it is controversial and not approved by the MFTHBA. However, the article is about the horse breed and not the organization - so the removal seems invalid. Where is the reference for the controversy? I've restored and re-organized the history section a bit. Vsmith (talk) 13:48, 10 March 2014 (UTC)


 * The controversy behind the Foundation Foxtrotter Heritage Associatin is that the creator/owner of this registry is putting forth and registry based on an unproven theory.  Mr. Ken Kemp did a paper on all the weaknesses to be found within this newer Association, and the link to that is:  http://kenkemp.net/ffha/vfact2013.pdf 216.252.18.157 (talk) 14:16, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Would need a WP:reliable source, where was this pdf published? With a reliable published source a bit could be added to the article disputing the FFHA statement. Disclaimer: I know nothing of this and have no clue who this Ken Kemp is - so maybe educate us here :) Vsmith (talk) 15:30, 10 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Actually, given the details in the "Credentials" section of the above paper, I think Kemp may quite well qualify as a SPS by an expert author, which would make it a reliable source. However, this does not mean the FFHA information should be deleted. Instead, what should happen is the article saying "The FFHA believes/claims xyz. Expert Kemp/the MFTHBA disputes this, claiming abc." I don't have time to write up an actual blurb for this right now, but if no one gets to it by later in the week I'll work on integrating the information. Vsmith is correct that this is an article about the horse breed, not the registry, and so both sides of the story need to be presented, rather than just deleting anything that does not fall in with the largest registry's party line. Dana boomer (talk) 12:21, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Like Dana says. It's an intra-breed dispute and we teach the controversy. Looks to me like the big thing with the fountation foxtrotter heritage bunch is a dislike for Tennessee Walker bloodlines, which, IMHO is mot much different than stuff like the "Egyptian Arabian" crowd in Arabs - The "V-factor" material in the foundation foxtrotter heritage association site is not just WP:FRINGE but gets into tinfoil helmet territory.  That said, the article by Kemp buys into the silly stuff all gaited people get into about lateral ambling gaits versus the pace - the failure to acknowledge that ambling is simply a pace broken into four beats; likewise the synchornous singlefoot (1-2-3-4) versus the asynchornous stepping page (1-2,3-4); but that's kind of universal in the gaited horse crowd, the desire to claim their breed has the unique gait.  For Fox trotters, this is an issue because the Fox Trot is a broken trot, not a broken pace.  But all that said, the legit stuff is in sections 18 and 19; among them that the V-factor is a totally bogus theory and the FFHA bunch seems to be kind of an internal self-promoting bunch.  I'd say we could add some carefully-phrased discussion of the issue.  Montanabw (talk) 02:02, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for educating me :) -- I'll defer to the experts here to clarify the article. Vsmith (talk) 13:56, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Happened again
And now a different new editor tried to remove the same stuff. White Arabian Filly Neigh 19:38, 15 May 2016 (UTC)


 * If it keeps up and becomes an edit war, ping me at talk and a message will come to me via email.  Montanabw (talk)  07:51, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, will do. They seem to have given up, though. It's another case of, "I don't like this so let's get rid of it." White Arabian Filly  Neigh 14:35, 19 May 2016 (UTC)


 * And go off and complain on their facebook site for their group about how inaccurate wikipedia is and how we evil wikipedians revert their edits! LOL!   Montanabw (talk)  23:41, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

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