Talk:Miyagawa Isshō

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I am having a hard time finding a Japanese source regarding this "Miyagawa Isshō". Is there any Japanese link or any book available as a reference? Would anybody happen to know what the ideograms for his name are in Japanese? By the way would anybody have some primary source regarding these depictions being homoerotical rather than hetero? PHG 11:06, 8 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I have come up with this: 宮川一笑 here.
 * As for the gender issue, I am not sure why the question arises. In light of all the primary material that has come out of Japan in the past generation, and the clear iconographical conventions of same-sex sexuality, the signifiers are clear and need no further corroboration. Haiduc 15:13, 8 October 2005 (UTC)


 * It can be difficult to tell the difference between wakashu (youths) and women in such images, but there are, as Haiduc says, some clear signifiers. Hairstyle is one of them, as is the wearing of a purple band in the hair.  The only one that is ambiguous as far as I'm concerned is the one in the top right corner.  The hairstyle and kimono look feminine to me, but then that's not necessarily a reliable indicator that the wearer was female.  Exploding Boy 15:49, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. Just trying to understand and make sure the descriptions are valid. Thank you for the iconographical explanations. I've also found a site which describes the purple band, and the explanation is very convincing indeed. 1) Is such iconographical information available anywhere on Wikipedia, or should we add a "iconography" section in the Shunga article? I would love to have a section "Iconographical expression of "Nanshoku Shunga"", or maybe even an article on "Nanshoku Shunga". 2) By the way, is there a specific name in Japanese for homoerotical Shunga besides the above "Nanshoku Shunga"? 3) Could anyone describe what makes the woman hairstyle specific to an male onnagata rather than just a woman, as in the picture on the right? With a reference is possible.

4) On most of these images, the man is described as a samurai. How do you tell the difference with a regular Japanese man? As far as I understand, the only clear picture of a samurai is the one with a katana (lower right), but you point out the absence of a male signifier for his partner. What does make it a "Nanshoku" scene then?

Haiduc, no denying Nanshoku etc..., but Wikipedia images, as well as our Wikipedia texts need to be referenced. If a Shunga image is homoerotical it should be very clearly labeled as such, but when there is no specific identifier that distinguishes it from regular Shunga, it probably should not be labeled as homoerotical.PHG 21:56, 8 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the Fiorelly link, he is always very illuminating. PHG, I have come to realize that the problem here is not so much whether an image is nanshoku style or not. With the possible exception of the image flagged by Exploding Boy (which is contextualized by its location in the initial position of a hand scroll consisting exclusively of homoerotic images linked in a hinted story line sequence (I can post the rest if you like), the images I have posted are unequivocally of same-sex trysts. To my mind it seems as sensible to require further corroboration of that as it is to go after all the geisha pictures and require that they be referenced as female since they could - to an unpracticed eye - be confused with onnagata.
 * No, what may not be defensible is any generalized description of all these as trysts between onnagata and samurai, as you correctly point out in your (4). Perhaps we should get some additional opinions here, if we can find qualified editors, on the possible occupations of the older partners. But nanshoku is not the exclusive domain of the samurai, so the elder's occupational status has no bearing on the gendering of the images.
 * As for the other points you raised, I am not aware of any term describing male shunga exclusively. And as far as an iconographical section, I think it is a very good idea, but I am not sure I can speak with sufficient authority, I still have a great deal to learn myself. Haiduc 23:04, 8 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The reference to "samurai" is a constant problem with these types of images on Wikipedia; the presence of a chon-mage hairstyle is not sufficient evidence of samurai status, and in the absence of swords it's impossible to tell or unlikely that the person pictured is a samurai. In all liklihood, most of the men pictured are merchants/townsmen.


 * Onnagata were not the only ones who wore purple headbands (and I'm not sure I agree totally with Fiorelli's explanation). Wakashu who were kabuki actors would also wear them, since at certain periods all kabuki actors were required to shave their forelocks, which were a major indicator of wakashu status.  Not every young person pictured in these images is an onnagata; I'd venture to say that probably none of them is.  Anyway, shudo was about male youths, not onnagata.


 * Youths and young women often look very similar in this tradition--even the clothing is often similar; that doesn't mean that the youths are onnagata.


 * Exploding Boy 04:53, 9 October 2005 (UTC)