Talk:Model minority/Archive 2

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): FP1997. Peer reviewers: Kliu38, FP1997.

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Cultural differences be Changed (with valid resource)
I am proposing to add this to the cultural difference section. Firstly, the cultural difference section is simply based on personal opinion/research at the moment, which is why I accumulated all these sources that is addressed in the first paragraph. Why would the first paragraph be considered "valid", yet anything I contribute, according to @Staszek Lem is completely illegitimate, even though I am citing sources addresses Chinese culture, work ethics, and Confucian. It is not synthesized research, it simply addresses all the issues brought up by the first paragraph. They delve into these cultural topics and demystify these "myths" which contribute to the "stereotypes" of "model minorities". Stereotypes legitimize myths and vice versa. Further, the Gaokao in China drives families to emphasize on education, as opposed to the belief that it is simply a matter of culture. This is a clear instance of political policies forming and shaping a society, in this case, China (which is again, specifically focused on the first paragraph). This is all related to sociological theories.

This is what I was proposing to be re-added:


 * It is also argued that there is a long Chinese intellectual tradition of repudiating Confucianism, stretching back to the radical May Fourth Movement of 1919.


 * Moreover, in China, a national college-entry exam determines if a student will go to university and to which one, where they work, and even who they marry. The exam is heavily memorization-based, which puts intense focus on time-consuming study methods. Because there is so much at stake in these exams, many parents emphasize academics to ensure a secure future for their children, thereby being driven by modern political policies and numbers rather than traditional culture.


 * Further, working hours in countries such as China, are not remarkable by the standards of other developing nations. Data has shown Mexicans do more paid work per day. Other data suggests the Chinese work fewer hours than Bangladeshis, Thais, and Indonesians – which are not generally seen apart of the model minority stereotype.

206.121.25.50 (talk) 06:52, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Also, i find it highly hilarious and ironic, that an article that is suppose to go into depth about the stereotype of a model minority, would be allowed to further perpetuate that stereotype, by having no one challenge or question this section prior to my contribution and edits. The irony is not lost, not one bit (and it's even shocking considering its been like that for years! wow.)

On a side note: i found another article that addresses this issues the head on, that my previous attempt attempted to do. And yes, it does address the model minority myth/stereotype, so it meets the policy Staszek Lem pointed out.

206.121.25.50 (talk) 08:10, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

There is a clear user bias from regarding this article, I met his initial valid claims, as I found a specific article that addresses cultural aspects of the model minorities. In fact, I cited a previous source, that was already cited on this article, that clearly speaks about model minorities, but now Stazek Lem is claiming they are not valid since they do not speak about model minority topics, but the topic is clearly addressed, if you actually bother to read it. Culture surrounding the model minority is addressed.

206.121.25.50 (talk) 20:53, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Stazek Lem wants to delete this:
 * Further, it has also been argued the myth of the Confucian emphasis on education is counterfactual. It also implies Asians are a monolithic group, and ignores the fact that the most educated group of Asian immigrants in the US are Indians, for whom Confucius is non-existent in their upbringing.


 * It has also been argued that self-selecting immigrants do not represent the actual Asian American population as a whole, nor the populations of their home countries. Only 50 percent of Chinese immigrants in the U.S. have a bachelor’s degree, yet only 5 percent of the population does in their native China.


 * Lastly, if Confucian culture played a vital part of Asian culture, Chinese immigrant children would perform consistently around the world, yet second-generation Chinese immigrants are the lowest academic achievers among immigrant groups in Spain, less than half are expected to graduate from middle school.

206.121.25.50 (talk) 20:56, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Proposed article forking into a US-specific section
Obviously this article is supposed to be international in scope, but to avoid the issue of having undue weight on United States issues in particular, but to also allow more detailed contributions on those issues (especially since the topic is a sensitive one for the Asian American community), I propose a subarticle. I'll do this myself if I have enough time, but if someone can help me with the process, let me know. Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 10:46, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I disagree with your proposal to fork this. The better solution is to strip this down back to an article on the idea of the "model minority," strictly defined.
 * It looks like to me that a lot of people outside of the U.S. have been adding improper original research to the article who do not really understand what the term "model minority" means in American English discourse. We have had similar problems for years with articles on police power. Part of the problem, of course, is that the U.S. is the global leader in social sciences. Which means people elsewhere are often hearing about these ideas secondhand. --Coolcaesar (talk) 05:19, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I think it is better to move much of the US-centric content into a separate article. This will allow editors to add much more detail about the issue without distorting the article's global scope. Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 06:04, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Huh? You essentially repeated yourself without actually responding to my point. The point I am getting at is that it doesn't have a global scope.  It is an American concept. --Coolcaesar (talk) 08:57, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Obviously this US-centric material I am drafting has to go *somewhere* so what is the immediate solution? Yanping Nora Soong (talk) 10:47, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I already suggested the solution---take out the garbage and revise this article so it focuses on the model minority as articulated in American discourse! Have you bothered to read any of the extensive literature on this concept? --Coolcaesar (talk) 05:18, 21 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I support this. I consider the stereotype of Muslims in the United States to be a case of US-Centrism. Muslims are educationally and economically poor throughout the world except for the United States where they've been subject to racist deportations and strict immigration requirements; Canada is the exception for Arab/Persian Muslims, Indonesia is an exception for Indonesians, and Malays are middle-road throughout the world. Megawave111 (talk) 14:53, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Should Muslims Really be Considered a Model Minority?
I think it's time to address the situation of Muslim ethnic groups and the "model minority" image.

1) Muslims have poor educational attainment outside the United States; they usually have low incomes and they are considered to be lower class. There are exceptions: in Canada Arabs/Persians tend to be economically well off; in the Netherlands, Indonesians tend to be educationally progressive; and Malays are generally a soft model minority.

2) Are Muslims really considered "model minority" even-though there's a lot of racism and negative stereotypes associated with them? In places like Europe and Canada, they are heavily associated with violent crime and extremism. They are also frequently the butt of the worst racism.

I think certain ethnic groups shouldn't be listed here, or at least should be listed with a counter-argument referring to the rest-of-the-world. The main targets would be: Iraqis, Afghaistanis, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and Turks. Megawave111 (talk) 15:01, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Missing citation
Hello everyone!

I just noticed that paragraph 2 about describing minorities "who achieve stability and socioeconomic status....." has no citation. I just wanted to put this out there just in case no one has spotted this. Additionally, paragraph 6 also does not have any citation. I wonder who was able to put those info down and where did they get those information from?

Sorry if I am putting this section the wrong way, this is the first time I am leaving a comment in a talk page.FP1997 (talk) 22:09, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

United States Model Minority Stereotype
I took a look where the info from the Model Minority stereotype section under United States came from. I would suggest not using the Wayback Machine as a source. Perhaps, if possible, cite the source that the Wayback Machine got it's info from instead of citing the Wayback Machine directly. Hope this makes sense.FP1997 (talk) 22:16, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Large reworking of article
I attempted to streamline the article and, among a number of other changes, removed the following sentences: Already have enough examples, and barring Chinese immigration doesn't decrease chances Asian Americans would be successful. unneccessary detail for this article; should be in an article on discrimination against Asian Americans Unless the article needs to specify a difference in performance between Hans and non Hans, "Chinese" encompasses both. Already encompassed in saying that they were poor - beyond that this detail is not relevant.
 * "The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 barred Chinese from immigrating to the United States."
 * "The 1965 Immigration Act removed national origin based quotas."
 * "of which 92% (or over 1.1 billion) are of the dominant Han ethnic group"
 * "Furthermore, during the course of almost all of China's history, until the Communist regime began liberalising its economic policies in 1978, over 90% of China's people lived in horribly impoverished conditions."

How do the changes look? Best, --Nectarflowed 22:28, 20 March 2005 (UTC)

re: --Nectarflowed 22:28, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC
You stated that numerical restrictions on Asian immigration to America were irrelevent; I disagree vigorously. Consider this: where are new immigrants likely to find adapting to a new country the most easy? Answer: within a group of their national/ethnic peers. So, Asian-American immigrants would have a far easier time after immigration if larger numbers of their group were present in established communities.
 * I believe you're referring to my mention above of my removal of the sentence:


 * "The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 barred Chinese from immigrating to the United States."
 * The dynamic you describe sounds possible. I think though that this topic is currently dealt with adequately in the section Model_minority, and going into too detailed history there is beyond what is needed for this article's purpose. --Nectarflowed (talk) 08:22, 22 April 2005 (UTC)

Chinese Exclusion Act
I don't get what the 100 Chinese per year is taken from. Actually, I happen to have a copy of the 2001 version of the US　Immigration and Naturalization service in front of me. Unfortunately, it'll only give me the numbers for decades. However, it should like like this

1871-80： 123,201 1881-90:   61,711 1891-1900: 14,799 1901-10:   20,605 1911-20:   21,278 1921-30:   29,907 1931-40:    4,928 1941-50:   16,709 1951-60:    9,657 1961-70:   34,764 1971-80:  124,326

(Taiwan included from 1957)

Even in the decade with the smallest number of immigrants, it's almost 500 people a year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tangsiuje (talk • contribs) 04:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

More Information for different races
There are lots of information for specific races, but if they had more information about different races, I think that would be better. Also, if they would have links or articles on real stories about model minority from different people. Maybe have a counterargument about model minority on the page. It would help when someone wanted to grab more information about the subject for an essay and then want a counterargument. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Janeeejang (talk • contribs) 23:35, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Microaggression
Model Minority is another form of stereotype towards different ethnic groups. But it's interesting that you don't hear much of how model minority can also be seen as racial microaggression if you think in terms of the eight themes of microaggression. Scholars and activism can discuss how it's denial one's racial reality when people argue about the education and socioeconomic disadvantages that Asian American faces. Another issue is when Asian Americans are being stereotyped by their "ascription of intelligence" that intertwines to how Whites assume that all Asian Americans are "alike". Whites assume that all Asian Americans look like that they all are intelligence and bright that it creates the ideal image of them having a higher degree in socioeconomic.Thus, racial microaggression is very subtle, but can be direct and indirect in how people use it in a sends a "put down" messages. Kliu38 (talk) 07:18, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Evaluation of this article
This article gives detailed background and a wonderful understanding of why it is that East Asians and South Asians (specifically Pakistani and Indians) are considered the model minority. It also gives insight that the "model minority" stereotype is not limited to the United States and it occurs in European countries as well.

The information offered in the article is neutral as it is mostly historical and connections made in history. It shows a bit of bias in wanting to prove that being a model minority is a myth; it is a myth because contributors of this article made sure to exemplify the stereotypes, adversities, and injustice that Asian Americans have also faced in the U.S., but others may have disregarded.

The article offers statistics/percentages of Asian Americans who obtain Bachelors degrees. The sources and references given for the article are reliable as many of them are through universities or scholarly journals.

Mchang38 (talk) 16:50, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Possible additions?
Hello all,

I would like to add these sources.

Kim, R. Y. (2002). Ethnic differences in academic achievement between Vietnamese and Cambodian children: Cultural and structural explanations. The Sociological Quarterly, 43(2), 213-235.

Ngo, B., & Lee, S. J. (2007). Complicating the image of model minority success: A review of Southeast Asian American education. Review of educational research, 77(4), 415-453.

Tran, N., & Birman, D. (2010). Questioning the model minority: Studies of Asian American academic performance. Asian American Journal of Psychology, 1(2), 106.

Wong, P., Lai, C. F., Nagasawa, R., & Lin, T. (1998). Asian Americans as a model minority: Self-perceptions and perceptions by other racial groups. Sociological perspectives, 41(1), 95-118.

Mnlim (talk) 22:50, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)
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Additions on Indian-Asians & Affects on Blacks
I added a paragraph to the Indian-Asian section of the article because it did not discuss the differences in treatment that Indians face because of social and physical factors - regardless of the money they make. I also added a new section concerning the affects of the model minority concept on Black Americans because the article didn't acknowledge in depth the direct contrast that is often made between the two minorities and why that contrast is unfair and damaging. Gi4444 (talk) 22:23, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Recent African Immigrants
It may be relevant for this article to also highlight the experience of recent African immigrants to the United States. Recent African and Caribbean migrants have a different experience from Black Americans whose ancestors endured slavery, persecution, and discriminatory laws for centuries. Recent black migrants, without the mental hindrance of centuries of racism, have generally performed socio-economically better than native-born minorities. They are typically middle to upper-middle class in status, and their crime rates are far below the national average. In many areas in fact, recent black migrants out-perform every other group in the United States. Nigerians for instance according to the US Census Bureau, are the best educated group in the United States, ahead of Whites and Asians. Their children as second generation Americans also tend to be well-educated above the national average.

While it may not be possible to examine every subset of a population, demographic variations within the "African-American" population deserves some attention when discussing the notion of "model minority". Merlin1935 (talk) 16:54, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Possible Edits
Hello! I am a student who is interested in working on this page for a course project. Specifically, I agree with some earlier statements that information about other races could be more developed. I would also potentially be interested in further exploring the history and trajectory of the concept of the model minority (likely in the United States) and add it to (or reorganize) the background section. Thanks! Amymu123 (talk) 08:39, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Nobel prize winners in section "Model minority stereotype"
I find it incredibly laughable that the paragraph citing "high" numbers of Asian American Nobel winners (as if it proves anything) fails to acknowledge that Asians are 60% of the world's population and the Nobel Prize is a global prize. Maybe it's just because I'm running on no sleep but this is so stupid to me right now and I don't have the energy to edit it myself. Someone fix? 205.154.244.130 (talk) 00:41, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Proposed edits
I am interested in revisiting this article and potentially creating a new article from this existing parent article for a more United States-based focus. I think the existing content on the United States is well written but the organization is a bit difficult as all the information is put under one section. Additionally, I would like to develop the background and history of the concept as well. For more information, feel free to check out my talk page! Amymu123 (talk) 16:40, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

Proposed Edits
I plan on editing the Southeast Asian Americans section as well as the Black Americans section, using Wu's book chapter "Success Story, Japanese American Style" as well as Lee, Wong, and Alvarez's article titled “The Model Minority and Perpetual Foreigner: Stereotypes of Asian Americans. Wu is a credible author on the subject of the model minority as she is currently an Associate Professor at Indiana University Bloomington in the History Department and is an affiliated faculty with the Asian American studies program. Additionally, her book was published by a university press, meaning the book has been peer reviewed. Then, Alvarez, Lee, and Wong are credible authors as they all are university professors in Asian American studies, education studies, or psychology (all of which are relevant to the analysis of the model minority stereotype). The book chapter is also part of a textbook about Asian American psychology, which means the chapter is written by experts in the field.

For the Southeast Asian Americans section I plan to add information regarding the differences in economic status of the Asian American aggregate versus Southeast Asian American ethnic groups. While the section includes information on differences in educational attainment, the article is missing information on economic differences. I will be utilizing data from Lee et. al's article which highlights how the annual median household income amongst Southeast Asian Americans is lower than the aggregate whereas poverty rates are often much higher. This is an important contribution as it illustrates how economic achievement amongst all Asian Americans is not guaranteed, ultimately refuting the model minority stereotype.

Then, the Black Americans section is missing citations for information and could use a bit of clarification in connecting the section to the topic. I plan on editing information in the Black Americans section by providing citations for claims regarding the differentiation of Asian Americans versus Black Americans in relation to the model minority stereotype. Additionally, using Wu's book chapter "Success Story, Japanese American Style" I will explain how the model minority stereotype served to discredit the civil rights movement by illustrating minority success achieved through hard work and support of the government, rather than protests. By including this information, my edits will highlight the effects on the model minority stereotype on ethnic groups in the United States.

Overall, I plan for my edits to be around 150-200 words.

If anyone wants to comment on these changes, please let me know on this Talk Page or on my Talk Page Skyelar24 (talk) 06:58, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): FP1997. Peer reviewers: Kliu38, FP1997.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 04:21, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Aprodis97. Peer reviewers: Aprodis97.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:09, 18 January 2022 (UTC)