Talk:Modern Arnis/Archive 1

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This archive page covers approximately the dates between DATE and DATE.

Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.

Please add new archivals to Talk:Modern Arnis/Archive02. (See How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Bob Hubbard 19:23, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Notable practitioners of Modern Arnis include Roland Dantes, Jeff Delaney, Tim Hartman, Shishir Inocalla, Dieter Knuettel, Remy P. Presas, Randi Schea, Tom Bolden, Doug Pierre, Bram Frank, Jerome Barber, Dan Andeson and Kelly Worden.

JJL 21:51, 13 December 2005 (UTC) This of course raises the issue of what 'notable' means. I take it as noted and/or noteworthy, on an international scale given the worldwide nature of the art. Do people on that scale know who Jerome Barber, Tom Bolden, and Doug Pierre are? They aren't important players on the Modern Arnis scene at that level. The previous list included the heads of the major organizations. Dan Anderson (note spelling) heads a small organization, but has some visibility because of his past Karate fame. Bram Frank has some visibility because of his knives. The others are practitioners, but not movers and shakers in nearly the same league. Before listing them we would have to list the remaining datus and MOTTs, for example, and more MARPPIO people. Jerome Barber, Tom Bolden, and Doug Pierre are just too far down the list. No insult is intended by this observation. Compare what's done on other martial arts listings on this site. E.g., the entry for Paul Vunak just lists his four senior instructors. The three names give here are certainly people who have studied Modern Arnis and remain active in spreading the Professor's teachings, but remember--as was recently discussed on the Karate page here--that Wikipedia is not a site for martial artists, it's a site for everyone. Putting those names in this list is misleading to those who know nothing of the politics and come here to find out what the heck the term even means. What possible argument is there for adding those names but not Datu David Hoffman, for example? Rodel Dagooc? The other two Presas children in MARPPIO? Lisa McManus, who does numerous seminars (and teaches at Norwich U.?)? Jim Powers? It's a biased addition. We need NPOV--organizational heads gives that.

70.104.59.36 : Someone keeps adding lesser known individuals, and introducing typos. Some of those individuals have dead entries on Wiki. --Addendum: This is the second time I've corrected the typos being introduced by "Datu Puti" as well as the lesser known individuals. --Addendum: I quit. Continued defacement by the addition of lesser known individuals, while continuing to ignore higher profile and more dynamic individuals, by 1 or more individuals pushing a personal vendetta rather than seeking to improve the listing has made this listing worthless.

"Notable Practitioners"...I find all of these people to be "of note" in Modern Arnis. If you wish to create a lineage tree be my guest, but for now who is "notable" or not is subjective. If you wish to add a list of 6th Dan and above/Datus, etc. have at it.

70.104.59.36 19:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC) 70.104.59.36 : Why are they of "note"? Thousands of others do this art. Why do you omit others who have higher visibility, or more current affiliations with GM Presas, to list those who split off 10 years or more back? Why not add a paragraph that touches on the "split offs" or independents, where lesser known but still notable individuals can be listed?

70.104.59.36 21:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC) Thank you. Can we add some information on the other organizations and people on linked pages? Is that how this works?

70.104.48.153 - What gives anyone the right to control the list of 'notables' here on wikipedia? It is an open encyclopedia not a popularity contest to be dictated by a small group of individuals. I noticed that some names that have been added and removed are being done so by differing perspectives on the issue. I THOUGHT the point was that eventually the reality of a topic is identified when MANY perspectives on the topic were allowed to flow. Fiefdoms not allowed if I read the philosophy here correctly.

If the strength of a contributors convictions match the truth, let the chips fall where they may. There should be nothing to worry about if entries that don't match their perspective because the truth will come out in the end. Besides, 'they can always just call' can't they?

70.104.59.36 03:29, 15 December 2005 (UTC) Lets look at the names listed and their "notability". Roland Dantes - Movie Star. Mr. Fillipines. Martial Art Ambasador. Jeff Delaney - MOTT. Head of 1 branch, IMAF. Has large number of videos on market Tim Hartman - 1 of 6 Datus. head of wmaa. Has videos on market. Largest US Arnis Organization. Does 20+ camps, seminars & events annually in North America and Europe Shishir Inocalla - Senior of 6 MA Datus. Hilot healer. Balisong expert. Book, Balisong-Filipino Knife Fighting. Movie credits include: Ninja Turtles, Pinoy Boxer, Five Style Fist, Crazy Kung Fu and The Ultimate Fight (with Ernie Reyes Sr & Jr). Works with all groups. Dieter Knuettel - 1 of 6 Datus. Head of DAV. Has video series on market. Largest European Arnis organization. Remy P. Presas - Son of late grandmaster. Head of family organization. Randi Schea - MOTT. Head of 1 branch, IMAF. Tom Bolden - 40+ years FMA experience. Head of own MA organization (AMAA), teaches personal adaptation of Modern Arnis. One of the first WMA Hall Of Fame inductees (1993). One of the first independent MA videos on the market (1995). Reputation for teaching highly skilled, functional and artistic MA practitioners. Doug Pierre - WEKAF fighter. Only MA practitioner to win two world stick fighting titles (won in the Philippines). Highest ranked American practitioner of MA, promoted to 8th degree black belt by Professor Remy Presas. One of the first WMA Hall Of Fame inductees(1993). Bram Frank - Knife maker. Head of own organization (CSSD/SC), recognized by the IMAFP Grandmaster's Council in 2004. Jerome Barber - College professor. The only "for credit" college MA program in the USA, started in 1987 and personally approved by Professor Remy Presas (in writing) in 1989. FMA Video on market 1993. WMA Hall Of Fame inductee 1994. Dan Anderson - Head of own organization. Known for karate tournament background. Has series of books on market. Kelly Worden - 1 of 6 Datus. Head of own organization. Hosts longest running Arnis event in U.S. Knife maker. Has videos. One of the first WMA Hall Of Fame inductees (1993).Explain why these people should/shoudn't be considered notable compared to the others?

=
Bob Hubbard 06:45, 15 December 2005 (UTC) I've attempted to add an entry for Datu Shishir, and expand on Datu Wordens information a bit. Would appreciate someone check I got the bits in right. :) Dankes.

== 70.104.59.36 01:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC) Re: Tom Bolden<BR> "AMERICAN Modern Arnis is a unique blending of PG Bolden's training background (traditional, not seminar) that spans over forty (40+) years and includes training in CHA-3 Kenpo/Kajukenbo and Pancipanci Eskrima in Hawaii under the tutaledge of Filipino-Hawaiians, Master Florentino Pancipanci and GM Marino Tiwanak. Later in his training PG Bolden studied Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan and Chi Kung under Master Pancipanci (PG Bolden is recognized as a Professor by the Hawaiian Martial Arts Society). He also studied Yang Style Tai Chi Chaun & Chi Kung for many years under Ms Cherie Barnier, a 1st generation disciple of Dr. T.K. Shih, learned two (2) styles of Tae Kwon Do and studied Fu Jai Pai Kung Fu under Master Wo Look. PG Bolden has also studied Capoeira (the ultimate flow art) under Mestre Nego Gato and GM Joa Grande (Capoeira Angola).

In 1984 PG Bolden met and started studying Modern Arnis with the late Professor Remy Presas at the two week intensive training camps (1984 & 1985) in Pennsylvania. He founded the American Modern Arnis Associates (AMAA) in 1993. The AMAA was an affiliate of the IMAF until 1995 when it went independent due to concerns related to ethical, quality control and political issues inside the IMAF. The AMAA embraces all principles and training elements of Modern Arnis except for the empty hand Anyos, which have been replaced by four (4) Sayaws (dances) originated by PG Bolden. The AMAA has also adapted training methods and elements from other martial art systems via the flow. The AMAA footwork, movement system and body mechanics are influenced by PG Bolden's training in various other martial arts and his training as an engineer and dance teacher. In short the AMAA system includes 95% of Presas Modern Arnis and has added much more!"<BR><BR> <BR><BR> Re: Doug Pierre<BR>

Sifu/Guro Doug Pierre is a leading authority in the arts of Kali/Arnis/Escrima with more than thirty five years of training in the martial arts. Sifu/Guro Pierre has studied/earned certification/rank in Kali, Arnis, Escrima, Karate, Judo/Jujitsu, Boxing and Kickboxing. Additionally he has earned Sifu (teacher) level in Tai Chi Chaun under the watchful eye of Grandmaster Chen Weigun. Sifu/Guro Pierre started studying Modern Arnis under Grandmaster Remy Presas in 1988 and continued until the grandmaster's illness and subsequent passing in 2001. He is the head of his own organization, Modern Arnis Domog (MAD), Domog (Doug's Method Of Grappling.)<BR>

Sifu/Guro Pierre is the foremost ambassador of Modern Arnis stick fighting in the world. He is the only practitioner of Modern Arnis to win two world stick fighting titles (in the Philippines). Because of his stick fighting prowess he is known and respected by many of the top Kali/Arnis/Escrima masters in the Philippines. He has been privileged to meet/study (in the Philippines) with many of them ( i.e. GM Tony Diego, Master Yuli Romo, GM Dionisio Canete, GM Ernesto Presas, GM Tatung Ilustrisimo, GM Jose Mena) and indeed many of them call him friend. As an ambassador of Modern Arnis stick fighting Sifu/Guro Pierre has conducted siminars/clinics all over the world including such countries as Poland, Switzerland, Germany, England, Mexico, The Dominican Republic, Costa Rica, Guatemala and China. He was the U.S. WEKAF stick fighting coach in 1996. Sifu/Guro Pierre has been featured in such publications as Action Martial Arts Magazine, Arnisador Magazine (souvenir edition) and Black Heros of The Martial Arts Volume II. In other media, Sifu/Guro Pierre had a fighting role in the movie "Johnny" (filmed in India) and has been featured on the television program Goodmorning America. Because of his contributions and skill in the art of Modern Arnis Grandmaster Remy Presas promoted him to the rank of 8th degree black belt in 2001, making him the highest ranking American practitioner of Modern Arnis. This promotion was witnessed by Yvette Presas.<BR>

What rank did he achieve under Presas?<BR>

How long did he train with Presas?<BR>

Re: Bram Frank<BR> What rank did he achieve with Presas?<BR>

<BR><BR> Ranks Under Presas:<BR> Roland Dantes - 8th Jeff Delaney - 5th<BR> Tim Hartman - 6th. Highest Tested rank in US<BR> Shishir Inocalla - ?? Dieter Knuettel - 6th<BR> Remy P. Presas - ??<BR> Randi Schea - 5th<BR> Tom Bolden - 3rd<BR> Doug Pierre - 8th?? Highest found rank is 4th.<BR> Bram Frank - none<BR> Jerome Barber - 3rd<BR> Dan Anderson - 6th<BR> Kelly Worden - 6th<BR> Sources: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4767 http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?p=97085

168.169.120.98 : All information that could easily be found by TALKING TO THEM. Tom Bolden's website on Martial talk, use it and email him at the contact me option, or submit these questions on his discussion forum. Doug Pierre is someone that should be easy for a DATU to get in contact with, as the one that you know. Bram Frank is highy visible and has instructional videos for sale, I am sure that a little internet research would reveal a way to contact him directly.

If there are questions, why ask them here. Find the answers and submit them, that is the point of Wiki.

70.104.59.36 15:05, 16 December 2005 (UTC) Because they are being listed as "notables" here, not there. According to the lineage chart that Kelly Worden was working on, it indicated certain ranks. Why should I contact each person individually, when I am certain Mr. Worden already had? <BR>Additionally, when discussing "Modern Arnis" I ask the question concerning Mr. Bolden and his associates because in the words of one of those associates, his "American Modern Arnis" shares little with Remy Presas's Modern Arnis. Once again however, you and your's petty little personal vendettas (which have been the source of your constant wii vandelizations here) have caused you to miss yet another opportunity. Most of these people do not have Wiki pages, and an unbiases (as opposed to the personal pushing you have done) could lead us to the seeds for several additional pages on these "notables". So, please, either add knowledge with verification, or refrain from disrupting the process.

Well, well, the bickering continues, this is Tom Bolden and as the questioner did above the correct person to ask questions of concerning the AMAA is me directly. I have supplied answers above to all of the questions asked and made some corrections/additions to the information originally posted. All information is documentable. The AMAA system (excellence, principles, content, artistry, effectiveness, etc.) speaks for itself. As for the claim of having spoken to one of my associates, you really should verify through me/the AMAA that such people really are members of the AMAA before posting such things here or elsewhere. The make up of the AMAA system is spelled out by me above. The best way to really understand what the AMAA system entails is to attend one of my camps as my guest, and see for yourself, not spread hearsay. As for some list of notable people it's really not that important to me, as being from the old school of martial arts, martial ability and skill is what counts, not inflated rank and titles! Imagine how much people could accomplish in terms of skill and martial development if they spent the amount of time training that they spend bickering. So please don't bicker here on my behalf, because this is a wonderful medium and I would hate to see it ruined by such nonsense! Normally I stay out of such arguments, but I just wanted to say a few things here to try and clear up any questions about the AMAA. If anyone has further questions please post them on the AMAA forum which can be found on the AMAA video library link listed on Martialtalk (thanks to Mr. Hubbard). I will be more than glad to answer such questions! Thank you.

168.169.61.46 reply to above: I never removed names from the "notables" list as someone else may have done because they were considered 'lesser known players', so who is disrupting what could be a productive process? How is it that one 'notables' name was deleted from Wiki when he had never been to wiki before? Again, who is pushing agendas with such actions.

Any additions or deletions may be considered 'vandalism' to some, but could be just another perspective on an issue that you are attempting to block because you don't agree with it. If the point is to create a full spectrum of a topic AND you feel strongly enough that the truth will stand for itself, let it flow or continue to contribute positively.

I am sure that there are many 'best' moments that we would rather not have exposed, but are out there for people to 'call them' if they choose. Why should you contact individuals directly....respect, accuracy, verifiability....Mr. Worden maybe a respected and highly visible MArnisador, but his research is not bullet proof OR agendaless either.

Those aspects should be included if wiki is going to be used as a source that: "Consensus editing is the process that wikipedia articles go through. It is presumed to result in something called "neutral point of view",

How can it be 'neutral' if any other perspective on a given topic is limited/editted and hacked into only one small groups angle on it?

BTW, I am sure that contacting Tom Bolden directly would give you a similar answer, but I undestood it that AMAA was built on the concepts and fundamentals of Remy Presas MA along with those other artistic elements. Tom Bolden also honored RP by calling his organization American MODERN ARNIS Assoc. out of respect.

THe 'little to do with' comment may have been more about what specifically students do with those fundamentals/concepts when they are being applied to the CHA-3/Panci Panci and other artistic influences on AMAA curricular material. IT could also have been a commentary about how closely AMAA members affiliate/associate themselves with others - as in they 'have little' in common with other associations. Just possibilities.

70.104.59.36 17:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC) Some individuals, don't know if you were 1 of them, don't care, spent some considerable time adding and removing unreputable links, and an individual going as Paul14227 went through the Hartman/WMAA entries and wiped all links out of spite. If we can move beyond such pointless pettyness, we can find that concensus I think.<BR><BR> Your explainations on the AMA system is good enough for me, and may be worth spinning a seperate page off using our mutual intel as a launch point. I may do that if no one else gets a chance before I get back here. <BR> As an aside, to help "ID", there is a trick of typeing 4 ~ together. It helps keep things clearer. Thank you.

== Bob Hubbard 19:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC) Added information from here to Shishir Inocalla page.

== Bob Hubbard 22:54, 16 December 2005 (UTC) Gentlemen, With Master Bolden weighing in here, can we purhaps stop the petty defacements, and use the information we have in this discussion to further expand the main Modern Arnis entry, as well as add some additional content pages? I believe there is enough here for entries for the AMAA and Doug Pierre. I think it might be nice if each person had a listing.

I think some people have control issues. Are you a Wiki admin? Who are you to direct anything around here? I do not mean to be too confrontational but this isnt your sandbox Al. As a matter of fact is the WMAA responsoble or is it not responsible for its founders promotion above 6th Dan? If its a fact why does it get classified as vandalism?

Reply to above Hubbard/Bester/et al statements:

The links that were wiped were by me under the Paul14227 account name. No, it wasn't out of spite. Basically the edit was motivated by the fact that any attempt to add to developing the 'neutral point of view' that comes from surrounding a topic with various perspectives was getting censored so maybe none of the outside links should be there at all. Not spite, 'mirroring' as Rich Parsons likes to call it. Leaping to conclusions about motives and using melodramatic language and responses to actions here or on other websites is not the act of someone confident in their sense of 'truth.' Let it ride.

Call it 'disreputable' if you like, but there were some valid points made from another point of view concerning the process of Mr. Hartman's promotions and the quality of his skill as an artist/instructor as well. As I have said repeatedly, if your conviction in your perspective is strong, you shouldn't fear letting other angles be discussed. Let people see it all and judge for themselves, I say.

BTW, You waded into the sandbox yourself and participated in some of the 'disreputable' content, language, and tone of the discussion too. You made some pretty 'vandalistic' comments concerning motives, upbringing, character of others. The point is that it is out there, for public viewing. Let the Encyclopedia act as a reference instead of your advertising page.

Bester boy used some pretty sad and juvenile language about topics and issues that he claims not to be affiliated with, but has never really been forthright about his ID, instruction, experience or motives for only watch dogging the injustices done to Mr. Hartman, WMAA, or Martial Talk. Trolling is not the same as justice/fairness. He seemed awefully privy to information about people to make such pointed and irrational comments.

You people want positive, how about living by the rules you set down. Banning people on forums for no apparent reason (such as FMATALK?) seem a bit abusive to me. Censor people there in your little fiefdom if that is what you want, but don't try to dictate 'fair' and 'positive' when you have no sense of what those words mean anymore than you do "honor" or "character" based on the abuse of power when you hold the keys to the kingdom.

Here, Wiki admins set the rules. I will enter information that I see fit, make edits that I see fit and NOT chase down admins to delete entries for what ever reason. "Neutral point of view" here seems to be the goal (admittedly, idealistically to some it seems) and the process is consensus editing NOT whining to admins.

Modern Arnis is as broad as "Judo" or "Karate" or any other label. Under it, there is room for all of the people that deserve to be called 'notable' for what ever reason. I don't give a hoot about what Vunak, Inosanto or any other entry here looks like. We create our own sense of reality here through 'consensus editing' and quite honestly, I don't think modeling "Modern Arnis" after other sites is a goal or concern of mine. I am not a clone, copy cat, or skirt rider.

Bob Hubbard 06:25, 17 December 2005 (UTC) I made some suggestions. That is all. I can see the war simply moves on to yet another venue. Suit yourselves. There is a statement about glass houses and all that. It seems to apply. I have no administrative control over FMAT, yet again, personal vendetta comes forth. As I said, theres a wealth of information here in this discussion that could be used to build some decent entries. Or, you can continue to vandelize and eventually, you will get your way as others such as myself really don't have the time to keep a pointless war going. Do as you will. As to "chasing down admins", Considering the entries for Dr. Barber were repeatedly edited by the same person, I would guess that what they had posted didn't comply. A pity, as he should have a listing. But, I again am arguing with anonymous individuals, an action both frustrating and ultimately pointless. I will focus on the "well known" and leave the "notables" to themselves. ===

What is the difference between 'notables' and 'well known?' Well, to be well known simply means that people recognize you or "Widely known; familiar or famous." There is no connotation of quality, high standards, or contributions. There is only the implication that a lot of people can point and say "That's that guy/gal."

To be notable means "Characterized by excellence or distinction; eminent." This term leaves the connotation of quality, superior performance, and contributions of an honorable character.

Britney Spears is 'well known.' Jerry Springer and Howard Stern are "well known." THey may be 'famous' but not within a connotation or context that I would want to be connected to. So keep the well knowns and I'll gladly take the 'notables.'

Personal vendetta nothing. Keep making Jeff Leader look like a fool for saying one thing and then looking like he is doing the exact opposite. "Birds of a feather" is another old saying... As for you facia of productivitiy here....let's hope your better at being consistent here than you are when your trying your 'best' to two face between coffee and MT.

I have had direct communication with you Bob, I wrote you, and you agreed that we act like grown ups between us. Yet it still seems that I can't make an entry or deletion without it being spun into 'vandalizm' or getting arm chair analyzed on motives OR 'bested' in MT where I have been banned and have no power to offer a different perspective - what a way to control the perspective and make sure you get the last word.

I don't think that your fears, as you mentioned to a mutual coffee buddy, are because of me so much as your tell tale heart. That bit of advice, along with the advice and offers concerning your lack of mobility during your coffee clotchs were all meant to be helpful. Like I tell my kids, I can't control your emotions or actions so don't blame me for your rationalizations.

I have never made any threats what so ever. I am comfortable in my position on issues and am wise enought to realize that resorting to threats or using my power to block counterpoints means that I have lost the debate and only weaken my character by avoiding healthy debate when I am reaching a point of discomfort.

I wouldn't attempt to drive any amount of hours to do such a thing, nor would I call anyone but the person I have issue with to talk it out. Only people that have a vindictive nature/lack the moral courage to stand face to face on an issue would do such things. "Birds of a feather" and such is another notable bit of wisdom.

If I had a problem with you, I would just tell you - as I have in the past. If I say let's be adult between us, that is what I mean - which I did.

Entries on the article or links. Yes let's keep those productive, but any sense of 'reality' isn't possible if you keep running over entries because you don't agree with them. Anonymous individuals are frustrating to deal with, but you seem to understand the desire for secrecy when you said that there are time when you just can't say things as yourself on forums. Look at the consequences to G22. You know who I am. You have tracked my IP, I have given you enough details to let you know here, and you can make your 'best' efforts at making 'educated guesses.'

JJL 05:31, 19 December 2005 (UTC) Discussion is happening now, and that's good. The line in the article for ind. practitioners is a great example of consensus. No one is trying to keep those names out; but it's just advertising to try to list them with the major players. The charge of vandalism was merited, I felt, by the refusal to compromise or engage in discussion. After the first edit, some names were left in...that's compromise. The other side simply reverted each time. Rather than re-hash that, perhaps more additions can be made in a constructive way--a generic syllabus, for example.

Reply to above:

The line in the article about 'independent' practitioners was not a great example of consensus because it left the reader with an inaccurate perception that the 'well known' names are all associated with each other, Remy Presas or his surviving organizations more directly than the 'independents' when that is not the case at all.

Dan Anderson, Kelly Worden, Tim Hartman and others would fall into the category of 'independent' if only because they are no longer affiliated with IMAF or IMAF Phillipines but head their own groups and promote their own people without approval or permission from IMAF, IMAF PHillipines or the like.

Except for those that were directly told by Remy Presas that they were a plank holder in his organizations (MOTTS and other administrative titles that gave them power within his organization such as co-GM or something like that) are Independents. There was a legally binding document and RP, by his own words while alive, identified the 'plank holders' within his officially sanctioned organizations. The rest either had nodding approval or didn't exist until after RP's death. The only one that I am aware of that existed before RP's death and has a signed endorsement is Jerome Barber's "Independent" organization curriculum that is taught as a college course. If there are others that can be verified, they deserve to be mentioned as well.

Dan Anderson's MA-80, Tim Hartman's WMAA, Kelly Worden's Natural Spirit, Bram Frank's blade based system, Jerome Barber's "Independent" Association are all 'independent' in the sense that they are not sanctioned by or answer to IMAF/IMAF Phillipines or some other organization that RP started himself.

==== Bob Hubbard 02:48, 20 December 2005 (UTC) There is a note on Jerome Barber's page that it is pending deletion. I recomend that those converned comment on the discussion page for it so that it's not deleted a 3rd time. ==== Actually, Bob, I have a better idea. Let the damned page die! I NEVER put up a Wikipedia page and I don't want the current one. Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Please be advised that I am the real Jerome Barber, Ed.D., Professor of Sociology and Adjunct Professor of Physical Education at Erie Community College in Orchard Park, NY. I am writing to clear up some past matters that have transpired on this discussion board and to establish my own position on a couple of related issues.

Previous to this date some person(s) have engaged in behaviors that have tarnished my name and character on Wikipedia, to the point an admin statement appears whenever anyon seeks to add anything to the page. Just let that crap die and go away, I will provide the necessary information right here and right now.

I want to make my views known to everyone using this discussion board. First and foremost I was unaware of this Wikipedia matter until I read a reference to it last weekend on mtc. Regarding this business about the “well known” vs. the “notable” people in Modern Arnis, I clearly enjoy being in the latter grouping because the people listed are highly skilled instructors/teachers. I have always taken the position that I am a teacher and as a teacher I am used to not being “well know” to the general public. Why would martial arts be any different for me?

Secondly, I am not occupying the top administrative position in any organization using the phrase “Modern Arnis” in it’s title. Therefore I am not a ‘leader’ in the art and when combined with the fact that my highest rank under Professor Presas and the IMAF before his death, was Lakan Tatlo – 3rd degree black belt, who in their right mind would try to claim that they deserved to be viewed as top level person after Professor’s death from that ranking? Certainly not me, because the issue is one of integrity, plus common sense. It’s a long ways between 3 and 9 or 10! Furthermore I have always been involved in a blended approach to martial arts.

I was taught and still practice Tracy System Kenpo and Modern Arnis. I am not now, nor have I ever been involved in an exclusively Modern Arnis approach. I fully and proudly point that out whenever asked or it is appropriate to say it. My approach to the martial arts is as a Kenpo-Arnis trained teacher. Furthermore I freely and openly revel in the fact that I have trained in a number of other arts in order to broaden my perspective as well as give my students a much more comprehensive view of the martial arts world than any single-minded approach can ever achieve.

The integrated approach that I learned under sifu Zanghi, has stood up well under the test of time and real world applications. I am proud of that approach and in honor of my first teacher, I continue to follow his lead. My organization is known as the “Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis Associates”. It encompasses most of the primary instructional programs that I was involved in, it also keeps alive the spirit of exploration and integration within the martial arts. If some people are unhappy with my approach or disagree with me, so be it, because I refuse to be bound by their limitations or lack of vision.

I want to sincerely thank the person(s) who placed my name in this arena. I certainly belong in the notable classification because I am THE ONLY person in the USA teaching Modern Arnis at the college level for academic degree credit toward a degree. Additionally, I am THE ONLY person teaching a college based, credit bearing courses that has been authorized and approved by the late GM, Remy Amador Presas, via his signature on the program curriculum. Consider the following points. My program at Erie Community College, Orchard Park, NY, has been running continuously, both Fall and Spring semesters, since 1987 to the present. Professor signed off on the program in 1989. These factors alone make me quite notable and unique. If I recall the situation correctly, there are six (6) Datu and eight (8) MoTTs. There is ONLY ONE (1) person teaching a college credit program in Modern Arnis in the USA… and that would be ME! The course numbers at ECC are PE 200, PE 201, PE 220 and PE 221.

Normally I do not make a big deal out of doing my job, but given the tone and tenor of the discussion on this board, I believe that I need to step up and set the record straight; I am not bragging or putting others down, I am simply telling everyone what I have done and there isn’t anyone else in Modern Arnis in the USA who can match my accomplishment within a college context.

As for those people who want to question my skills in or knowledge of Modern Arnis, I have a very simple straight forward response, contact me escrima_kenpo@hotmail.com and let’s arrange to do a joint seminar. That way we can demonstrate our respective skills, knowledge and understandings of Modern Arnis in a public venue. I am offering to work with any doubter in an open, public and publicized event. We will work side by side in a comparative manner demonstrating theories, drills, techniques, applications and innovations associated with Modern Arnis. The seminar will be video-taped to ensure that we have an accurate and objective record of the proceedings. Each of us will work with our own ukes. That is to ensure that neither of us gets “sandbagged” by the other.

Below, I am posting my complete martial arts resume: Martial Arts Credentials: C. Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

of New York at Buffalo, 1985.
 * Doctorate in Education - Social Foundations of Education - State University

Punong Guro Tom Bolden
 * Lakan Anim - 6th degree Black Belt - American Modern Arnis Associates,

Shihan Ernest McPeek
 * Rokydan - 6th degree Black Belt - Kenpo - International Schools of Self Defense,

Grand Master Remy A. Presas
 * Lakan Tatlo - 3rd degree Black Belt - International Modern Arnis Federation,


 * Sandan - 3rd degree Black Belt - Tracy System of Kenpo, Sensei Ernest McPeek

Fighting Back Institute, Sifu/Guro Donald J. Zanghi
 * Shodan/Lakan Isa - 1st degree Black Belt – Tracy Kenpo-Modern Arnis -

at Erie Community College:
 * Developed the Curriculum for and teach the 4 Course Sequence for academic credit

PE 200 - Basic Self-defense: Tracy Kenpo & Modern Arnis PE 201 - Escrima-Arnis for Self-Defense PE 220 - Paradigm Escrima & Pancipanci Eskrima Self-defense PE 221 - Advnced Tracy Kenpo & Modern Arnis for Self-defense

Written Approval received from: Grand Master Remy Amador Presas - 1989 - Modern Arnis (IMAF) Punong Guro Tom Bolden - 1992 – American Modern Arnis & Pancipanci Eskrima Grand Master Al Tracy - 1992 - Tracy System of Kenpo

International Affairs" - 1990 - 1994. The IMAF was a Chartered Associate of  the Philippines National Olympic Committee and Arnis Philippines Incorperated.
 * Served as IMAF "Technical Assistant-Modern Arnis & Secretary-General for


 * Inductee: World Martial Arts Hall of Fame - 1994

International Martial Arts Hall of Fame
 * Instructor of the Year - 1996, World Head of Family Sokeship Council,

GM Al Tracy, Master of Ceremonies and Event Organizer
 * Senior Master of Kenpo and Eskrima - Kenpo Gathering of Eagles - 2001 -


 * Inductee: World Head of Family Sokeship Council, “Tactical Eskrima” - 2004
 * Martial Arts Publications:

Dr. Jerome Barber. “The FMAs: Self Defense for Women”  Filipino Martial Arts Magazine. Vol. 1, Number 5 - Sept./Oct. 1998.

Dr. Jerome Barber. “Paggamit ng Sandata: Choice of Weapon - The Kubaton” Filipino Martial Arts Magazine. Vol.4, Number 2 - 2002.

C. Jerome Barber. “Kenpo” Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia, Volume One, A-Q. Thomas A. Green, Editor, ABC-CLIO, Inc., 2001.

Dr. Jerome Barber. “My Turn: Meeting of Arnis Minds” Inside Kung Fu, July 2003, Vol. 31 Number 7.

Dr. Jerome Barber. Filipino Escrima/Arnis & Chinese Kenpo Systems: Connecting the Systems for Practical Empty Hand Self Defense. Independent Escrima/Arnis Associates, 1995.

Dr. Jerome Barber. The Escrima - Arnis Curriculum Guide: Level I Instruction. Independent Escrima/Arnis Associates, 2002.

Dr. Jerome Barber. Filipino Arnis for Self Defense - A Video. Independent Escrima/Arnis Associates, 1993.

You will note that while I hold only a 3rd degree black belt in Modern Arnis (IMAF) under Professor Presas, I did not stop my martial arts training after separating from the IMAF in 1994. Nor did I stop teaching Modern Arnis at ECC.

For those people who want to stomp their feet and argue against the Sokeship designation because the title is not consistent with the FMAs, I would suggest that jealousy is their real motivation. Furthermore, I am neither the first nor the last person with FMA training to accept this award. GM Ernesto Presas, GM Bobby Taboada, Gat Puno Abon Baet and GM Fred Lazio are also members of the Sokeship Council. As for the issue of the inductee having to pay for the awards dinner, certificates and trophy, please explain to me how the costs of the event would otherwise be covered. Then there is the matter of the “Senior Master” designation from the GOE2 event, which I did not have to put out any expense monies. All of the costs were covered by the event hosts. Does that make the GOE designation more valid than the Sokeship?

In conclusion, I would like to point out that I have a great deal credibility in Modern Arnis as well as Kenpo. I have earned all of my awards/ranks. Each and every award/rank was bestowed by people senior to me and NEVER by my students or organizational subordinates. The people fighting to keep my name off this list of Modern Arnis notables have little or no knowledge about my martial arts skill level or accomplishments. I believe in the concept of "Skill is Rank". Therefore, I have provided the above information in order to set the record straight and put an end to all of the bickering over my qualifications. If such bickering continues then I can only conclude that there is a “political agenda” surrounding the names presented and the categories selected. Honesty and objectivity are not at work and that should be duly noted by all.

Thank you for reading this submission and I hope that I will not need to post again on this topic.

Respectfully submitted,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Dr. Barber (Jerome), this information would be helpful if it was entered in the "Jerome Barber" topic discussion that is waging to determine whether your name should be left or deleted on Wikipedia. Do I have your permission to copy and paste this entry to that discussion?

Yes, you do have my permission. Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

I'm sorry, I forgot to log in and I am adding this information to reinterate my permission to copy and paste the above entry to the Modern Arnis discussion.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Added both Tom Bolden and Doug Pierre pages.--Bob Hubbard 00:19, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: Inclusion of "American Modern Arnis" under this heading. As per Master Boldens reply above, summarized here, it would seem to qualify for inclusion in my opinion. While I had misakenly linked to an older GeoCities page, the terminology, ideas and concepts as presented by the AMAA appear to be no more "different" than those paths walked by any other Arnis organization. "In 1984 PG Bolden met and started studying Modern Arnis with the late Professor Remy Presas at the two week intensive training camps (1984 & 1985) in Pennsylvania. He founded the American Modern Arnis Associates (AMAA) in 1993. The AMAA was an affiliate of the IMAF until 1995 when it went independent due to concerns related to ethical, quality control and political issues inside the IMAF. The AMAA embraces all principles and training elements of Modern Arnis except for the empty hand Anyos, which have been replaced by four (4) Sayaws (dances) originated by PG Bolden. The AMAA has also adapted training methods and elements from other martial art systems via the flow. The AMAA footwork, movement system and body mechanics are influenced by PG Bolden's training in various other martial arts and his training as an engineer and dance teacher. In short the AMAA system includes 95% of Presas Modern Arnis and has added much more!" --Bob Hubbard 07:16, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

JJL 15:27, 24 December 2005 (UTC) With the GeoCities page it was hard to see the connection. Still, this one shows Remy Presas as one of seven influences, and decribes it as "American Modern Arnis, a collateral system of Modern Arnis" and so I think listing it with the 5 actual Modern Arnis orgs. here is misleading. The first link on the page is the least relevant to the subject of the page and has the least national following. Link it from the Tom Bolden page rather than here.