Talk:Modesty Blaise

Old, unsectioned comments
I'm not surprised that O'Donnell doesn't want others to write about Modesty Blaise -- he doesn't strike me as an overly possessive man, but every time he's handed over the writing to someone else, they've made a horrible mess of it. Wouldn't you get tired of it after a while? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Steverapaport (talk • contribs) 17:33, 7 February 2005 (UTC)

I had heard that Modesty Blaise was, at least in one incarnation of this fictional character, prone to removing her top to "stun" opponents. This might be a confusion with a burlesque version of the Blaise comics done by another, but still I think I recollect reading about this technique of hers.


 * Sort of true, Modesty certainly uses whatever comes to hand when fighting. The idea would be to put an opponent off balance by appearing vulnerable. There is an interesting interview with Peter O'Donnel on the 'My Name is Modesty' dvd where he talks about a fight squence in 'The Silver Mistress' and also describes the reaction of the Times to a topless Modesty Blaise in one panel.--Mikekscott 13:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * This trick is used in a couple of the early novels and is in fact illustrated on the cover of the first American paperback edition to, I believe, either I Lucifer or A Taste for Death. It wasn't a thing she did regularly and while it was given a name (the Stinger or the Stunner - I forget which) suggesting she'd used this trick before, it wasn't a regular part of her arsenal, unlike the kongo hidden in her ponytail, for example. 23skidoo 22:47, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "The Nailer", IIRC. ...we should perhaps clarify, also, that the cover illustration in question depicts Ms. Blaise from behind. :) --Paul A 01:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


 * In the strip story "The Reluctant Chaperone" she uses the Nailer and afterward she and Willie jokingly discuss that it didn't "freeze" the bad guys as long as it used to and speculate that too much nudity in modern culture has rendered it less effective than it used to be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.200.167.211 (talk) 14:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Sabre-Tooth the 1967 paperback published by Fawcett Crest Book is the one with Modesty using The Nailer on the cover. The Nailer was invented by Willie Garvin during a caper and she has used it often ever since. because it was an effective distraction when needed. Several times when there was another female ally, she would have them use The Nailer as bait for the bad guys to ambush them. She has also fought in the nude of several stories like The Silver Mistress and A Taste for Death. In fact her name Modesty came from her being so accustom to nudity and indifferent to being nude.

The kongo was not hidden in her "ponytail". She wore her hair in a variety of ways depending on her mood or the practical circumstances at the time. Her trademark look was a chignon with the hair piled on top of her head. She sometimes wore her hair woven into a club or bun at the base of the neck. A kongo would often be hidden inside. When her hair was plaited and in pigtails or a ponytail it was usually to show her youthful personality. The kongo was also the breakaway handle for her purse or kept in a patchpocket of her "work clothes". She even improvised a kongo with a pepper mill in The Impossible Virgin.

Storm notes
Storm's origin as a thief in Cairo seems to derive from MBlaise.
 * That's a bit tenuous. Presuming you are speaking about the comic book character from the X-Men (correct?), is there a source that suggests Stan Lee was inspired by Modesty Blaise when he (or one of his writers) created the character? 23skidoo 01:10, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Claremont wrote in an origin for Storm as a child thief under Achmed el-Gibar. . sound familiar to MB? Enda80 16:18, 14 May 2006 (UTC)enda80
 * Not particularly, IMO. 23skidoo 18:51, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Storm was created by Len Wein and Dave Cockrum, with a backstory and character development by Chris Claremonte. Stan Lee was never involved. If anything, Storms child thief past resembles the Artful Dodger and Fagin of Oliver Twist. Modesty as a child was more a begger and scavenger than thief. her life of crime began later. She had Lob a teacher and homeless refugee that she took care of, who taught her different languages. tphile

Book series articles created -- please contribute
I've gone ahead and created starter stubs for all of the Modesty Blaise novels per the Novels WikiProject -- including one for the first book which is at Modesty Blaise (novel). Just follow the links on the booklist. Right now most of them are stubs (a few had already been started). I invite everyone to add plot summaries and other information to these articles. Me, I need to reread most of them to remind myself of what they were about! 23skidoo 02:08, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I've now added "Plot summaries" to 10 of the 11 novels. I'm guessing my style is more suitable for "plot teasers" than "plot summaries", but that was how I felt inspired. If nobody objects I'll replace the current plot summary for The Silver Mistress, even though the current one is OK in my opinion, just not consistent style-wise with the other 10 by me.

I've also replaced the paperback cover pictures with first edition cover picturesfor 11 of the 13 books. Pieces of Modesty is OK as is, as there was no first edition hardcover. As for Modesty Blaise (novel), if nobody objects I'll move the current American cover picture down and to the left and put a Souvenir Press first edition cover picture in the info box. --RenniePet 21:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, go ahead. And even under Wikipedia's increasingly draconian image rules we can get away with having the two covers because the US one was featured in Pulp Fiction and by mentioning this in the article (and it was a notable reference given Tarantino's documented interest in MB) it satisfies free use. 23skidoo 22:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Template created
I've created a navigational template for the MB books and films which I've added to the individual articles on the novels and My Name Is Modesty. I'm not adding it here because the in-article lists cover this information. I plan to create a separate article on the 1966 film shortly, and possibly one of the 1982 pilot as well, though most likely I'll merge the two into one article. 23skidoo 18:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

New story list a copyvio?
The newly added concordance concerns me because its format is almost identical to that published in the Manuscript Publications releases Lady in the Dark and Live Bait, thereby making it a possible copyvio. Does anyone else concur? 23skidoo 13:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Modesty Blaise books
Would it not be better to rename this category to Category:Modesty Blaise so the films, author, and anything to do with Modesty could be included in the category? --Bduke 23:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No. The generaly practice is to have books listed under their own category. There's nothing stopping you from creating a blanket Modesty Blaise category and making Modesty Blaise books a subcategory, however. I did something similar with Category:The Saint which has a category for the books as a subcategory of the parent. 23skidoo 23:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, if that is the practice, although it seems to me to be fine for an author with a large number of books, films, etc., but not for one like Modesty Blaise where the number of articles. except the book articles, is quite small. If we did create a category as you suggest it would be much smaller than Category:The Saint - maybe about 5 plus the sub-category. --Bduke 23:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I've seen smaller. An alternative (and possibly a better one since there is already a book template used) is a Peter O'Donnell books category since all the MB books were by him anyway, and this would also eventually be populated by articles on his Madeleine Brent novels. 23skidoo 23:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Would you move all the Modesty Blaise books there and delete that category or have it as a sub-category? Would all the MB films go into that category? --Bduke 00:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It would be a subcategory, or in other words, the Books category would itself be placed in a category (see Category:Simon Templar books for an example of what I mean). The films might need to go into an MB films category. Maybe Category:Peter O'Donnell would be more accurate. 23skidoo 02:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Arachibutyrophobia
Please, Modesty Blaise fans, if you have the novel Modesty Blaise at hand, I'd like you to provide context and quotations for -phob-. Thank you. ''mikka 17:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting -- I happen to be a member of one of the main Modesty Blaise e-mail discussion groups and I will post your query there as well. 23skidoo 22:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I just got my first reply confirming the word is in the book. The context is a word game played by Willie and Modesty. Still awaiting chapter and verse citation, however. 23skidoo 22:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thx. I am ashamed I've never heard of Modesty Blaise before. First thing to do I'm done with wikipedia.;( ''mikka 04:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You won't be disappointed. And as it happens the word is not in the original Modesty Blaise novel, but rather in one of the later books, so I'll add the information accordingly. 23skidoo 04:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Modesty Blaine?
There was a female character named "Modesty Blaine" who appeared in several episodes of Maverick. Was there any connection other than the similar names? Inspiration, perhaps? ChrisStansfield 23:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Use of Modesty Blaise template on main page
Regarding RenniePet's question, to my understanding a template isn't needed on a main page if lists covered by the template are already in the main body. I have no objection to having the template, but I never added it initially because I was under the impression it was either unnecessary or we weren't allow to use it. 23skidoo 15:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required
This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 17:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Done - needs a lot more references. I've flagged a few of the most obvious statements that need sources and issues of canon/fan speculation can be tricky without being well sourced. (Emperor (talk) 04:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC))

New story list
The new story list was presented on this discussion page on 2009-03-03, and implemented on 2009-03-09. The new list have some corrections, some additions, and some minor changes. Benadikt (talk) 02:14, 3 March 2009 (UTC) Benadikt (talk) 23:19, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Corrections

 * According to Lawrence Blackmore in The Modesty Blaise Companion Companion, story 14 started again on Wednesday, 11th September 1968, and not on 10th.


 * The Dark Angels was first published on 2002-06-13 and 2002-07-11 in the Swedish Agent X9 number 7 and 8, 2002 (I have both issues). So December 2002 is not correct as first publication.

Additions

 * The number of strips (ordinary strips and A-strips) is included in a new column. (The purpose of the A-strips should be explained in the article. Maybe I will write about it later).


 * Two books were published under the Star imprint (and the colophone says in 1978, not 1977). I have both of them, and I have shown the front pages on ComicWiki.
 * Number one have three stories, In the Beginning plus the two on your list already, no. 8 and 10.
 * Number two have the TITLE In the Beginning, but don't include the story with that name! It have story no. 1 and 2.


 * Blackmore mention a Comic Media Vol 2, No. 2 where In the Beginning was published.


 * The first publicaton of story 14a or SP2 was in Glasgow Evening Citizen on 1968-10-07 - 1968-11-16.


 * Holdaway's last published strip was number 2098, and Romero's first published strip was number 2099. See story 18.


 * Burns' last published strip was number 4767A, and Wright's first published strip was number 4768. See story 43.


 * The graphic novel published in 1994 is included on the list. (This is not a newspaper strip story, but neither is story number 96).


 * The number of pages of story 96 is included.

Minor changes

 * The four special stories are numbered different in different indexes. So I have numbered them in notes under the table.


 * The publication dates are written according to the international standard ISO 8601.


 * Because the new Titan Book series will be the most complete series, I have just called it T, and then called the old series OT.

Comments
I don't know how to interprete the number 96 in the sentence: "There were 96 storylines produced..." There were produced 95 ordinary stories for newspapers, 2 special shorter stories for newspapers, and 2 comic book adaptions. Story number 96 (or SP4) is not produced as newspaper strips. And the sentence "... over more than 40 years"? From May 1963 until July 2002 is a little bit less than 40 years.

Benadikt (talk) 23:19, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Modesty Blaise Quarterly (Comics Revue presents Modesty Blaise)
Does anyone know what stories were covered in issues #24 & 25 ? RGCorris (talk) 16:03, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * With issue 23, all the MB stories had been reprinted, so the contents of the last two issues was decided by reader vote. Issue 24 carried "The Galley Slaves" and 25 reprinted "Butch Cassedy Rides Again". Rick Norwood (talk) 18:29, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Rick - I have added that info to the MB page and also to the MB Quarterly page. RGCorris (talk) 20:38, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

WP:EL
WP:EL and WP:FANSITE plainly states the circumstances under which an external link should be avoided. Criterion #11 states that "Links to blogs, personal web pages and most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority" should be avoided. The guideline further states that "you should avoid linking to a site that you own, maintain, or represent," and it's not unreasonable to assume that InkStainedAmazon, a SPA whose sole contribution to Wikipedia was putting that link up, is in fact the owner of the "Ink-Stained Amazon" blog to which it links. It is a well-written blog, but fails WP:EL.  Ravenswing  21:36, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't mind a reference being deleted, and your reasoning is good. I did find the write-up to be well written. I might be old fashioned, but I would have called that an article, rather than a blog. It seems calling it a blog is diminutive of the work and research done. I also compared the added website to others that were included in external reference, and found that others were also fansites, just well developed. Therefore, the only reason to delete the link was because it was posted by the owner of the website. I had reversed the first deletion just because I found that the first deletion was non-informative on the reason for deletion. I went to the wikipedia external links (WP:EL) website that was referenced, and couldn't determine what the reasoning was. Now I know. Mburrell (talk) 16:54, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Mab Brevete
"and as for firearms she prefers Colt .32 and Mab Brevete,"

I suppose "Mab Brevete" should be "MAB Breveté", i.e. "MAB Patented". Could it be a reference to the MAB P15 which was marked “PISTOLET AUTOMATIQUE MAB BREVETTE - S.G.D.G.”? HughesJohn (talk) 08:45, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

No, as that gun didn't appear till 1975, and Modesty first mentions and carries the 'MAB Brevete' (which O'Donnell seems to have mistakenly thought was the name of the gun, since it's engraved on the slide) in the first strip story, 'La Machine', in 1963. It seems to be the MAB Modele C of 1933-1967, a pocket-size automatic based on the 1910 Browning-FN, chambered for .32 ACP (7.65mm Browning) or .380 Auto. Since O'Donnell says on p.22 of the original 1965 novel, 'The gun was no stopper, unless you were very accurate. Modesty Blaise was very accurate. And the advantage lay in the gun's comparative quietness,' and since her other favourite is the Colt .32 revolver, the writer seems to have had the .32 version in mind. 84.93.182.25 (talk) 14:03, 22 June 2014 (UTC) Hugo Barnacle

Amazon release dates for Titan reprint series
The last few release dates given on Amazon when a new MB book is first listed have proved to be optimistic, and often change nearer the time of release. Titan seem to work on a six-month gap between releases. It might be better to show forthcoming releases as "Spring" or "Summer" rather than include specific dates in the article that, on previous experience, are unlikely to be accurate. RGCorris (talk) 12:39, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Strip numbering section removed
Much to my disappointment I see someone has decided the list of stories in the Modesty Blaise comic strip series has no place in Wikipedia (yet you can find detailed lists of episodes of the most obscure sitcom. Go figure.). Without that list the "Strip Numbering" section serves absolutely no purpose as there's no context anymore. So I have deleted it. It's still in the archives if someone convinces the powers that be that Wikipedia won't collapse if it contains a list of comic strip storylines. 68.146.72.113 (talk) 14:36, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess you didn't scroll down far enough - they are all still there in the story list. RGCorris (talk) 19:24, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Titan Books' reprints
How about putting the information about Titan's reprints in a table like the shown? Benadikt (talk) 23:09, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Looks good to me.  Ravenswing  00:00, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Fine, I have implementet it in the article. 81.25.184.57 (talk) 23:59, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Andrews McMeel Universal
Why does this article have the Andrews McMeel Universal template at the bottom when Modesty Blaise is not in there?

The Andrew McMeel Universal external link was added on 13 May 2010 when a link to Universal Press Syndicate was added. The Modesty Blaise series link was removed on 24 October 2010 when a link to a commercial site selling Modesty Blaise art was added. I have removed the Universal Press link and added the Modesty Blaise link. Mburrell (talk) 14:50, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

The Modesty Blaise Companion
I have the two books The Modesty Blaise Companion and The Modesty Blaise Companion Companion with comprehensive information about the series. I tried to write a short description (see Literature underneath), but I am not shure if it fits into the article or if it is documented well enough. It is difficult to find any non-commercial desription of the books on the internet, so here is the decription from the publisher: The Modesty Blaise Companion And here is my description on a danish wiki about comic books: The Modesty Blaise Companion and The Modesty Blaise Companion Companion Benadikt (talk) 01:21, 24 September 2012 (UTC) :

Literature
In 2005 Book Palace Books published The Modesty Blaise Companion by Lawrence Blackmore, ISBN &. The book is 436 pages and describe the writer and artists, it have a story outline of all comic stips, novels, and short stories, and it desribes over 2 000 characters in the series with illustrations of them.

With The Modesty Blaise Companion comes a CD Rom containing The Modesty Blaise Companion Companion, a book as a pdf file, 294 pages to print in letter or A4 format. It describes each of the 97 newspaper stories with artist, strip numbers, full number of strips, ordinary strips and A-strips, full number of frames, full story length (number of words), maximum, minimum and average words in a strip, average words per frame, full number of frames, starting and ending date and weekday in Evening Standard, notes on publication in Evening Standard and other newspapers, reprints, main characters, other characters, and locations.

Ripper Jax (or citations)
RGCorris entered information about Ripper Jax as the 27th Titan book to be published. I deleted it because I could find no listing anywhere on the web listing Ripper Jax as the next book, or a publication date. RGCorris undid my deletion and said information was provided by the publisher. I have gone to Titan Books website and did a search of Modesty Blaise books (http://titanbooks.com/search/all/?search=modesty%20blaise&type=Book) and find no listing for Ripper Jax. I have been to Amazon, and they don't list it. Bing and Google can find no listing for it. I don't want to get into an edit war, but without a citation, this sounds like a want rather than an information dump. This is an open request to RGCorris, or anyone else, to provide any citation at all. Otherwise, I will have to delete the information again as speculative. This request is to avoid any concept of edit war, but just a need for proof. Mburrell (talk) 03:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * This information was provided by Titan in an e-mail. Feel free to e-mail them yourself if you want confirmation. RGCorris (talk) 13:09, 6 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Information provided in an e-mail is great for your personal blog, but Wikipedia is basically an encyclopedia, and requires citations to reference facts. Please be aware this is not an attack on you, but I will be deleting the mention of the new book until the information can be verified.  Maybe if you wrote to Titan Books and asked them to post the information on their website.  Otherwise, the information you have provided is unverifiable.  Even if I wrote to Titan Books and got an e-mail back, I could not use that information.  Maybe if a news publication or magazine published the information.  Can you include it in a book announcement in a paper or on-line journal? Mburrell (talk) 18:49, 6 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Very well, I'll put it back when Amazon or the like add it to their list of forthcoming publications. Seems rather a waste of everybody's time and effort but rules is rules :-( RGCorris (talk) 12:13, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Now listed on Amazon - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Modesty-Blaise-Ripper-Peter-ODonnell/dp/1783298588/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1432036395&sr=1-1&keywords=ripper+jax RGCorris (talk) 12:03, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Philosophical Question - What is meant by Released
Here is a philosophical question. If a publisher lists a book as being published by a certain date, but no retailer is selling it, has it been released? Is the fact of listing the book (for argument's sake, let's call the book Ripper Jax) as being published in November 2015 sufficient to count the book as being released? Or does the book have to be available to a single end-user (estimated date of March 4, 2016) before the book is counted as being released? Mburrell (talk) 06:02, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The Titan website has now been updated and agrees with Amazon that the current projected release date is 4 March 2016 http://titanbooks.com/modesty-blaise-ripper-jax-8431
 * Although there is a "Buy Now" button on the Titan page it does not link to a supplier who currently has the book in stock.
 * Many of the current run of Titan reprints have been subject to date slippage RGCorris (talk) 17:50, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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User mburrell is owning this a bit too much.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Modesty_Blaise&oldid=prev&diff=1021144038

When I got round to it, it took less than 30 seconds with Google, searching on "Stross Modesty Blaise " to find the reference mburrell said was needed while undoing work. https://thelaundryfiles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Apocalypse_Codex This wasn't healthy editing, and it was lazy. The Laundry Files canon of drawing references from material such as the Blaise books is a significant here as other references. I suggest you put my work back in, but it isn't something I care to edit war about. Midgley (talk) 14:25, 26 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Amusingly, references 10 and 11 in this WP article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Laundry_Files give even more direct primary references. And IIRC it is explicit in the end-material of the book itself, at least in the edition I have and looked in. There's a WP:CAPITALS that this bit of irritation probably wasn't.  Midgley (talk) 14:45, 26 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I apologize, but this section in the talk page comes off as an ad hominem attack which has nothing to do with the Modesty Blaise article, and should be transferred to the users talk page (my talk page). See No personal attacks. Wikipedia has guidelines on article talk pages, see WP:TALK, but essentially the goal is to stay on topic, "Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects)." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mburrell (talk) 20:41, 26 September 2021‎ (UTC)

Possible points of additional discussion
I don't have the time right now to look up citations, but one bit of discussion that could be added to the article is Modesty's ethnic background. Although O'Donnell intentionally kept it vague owing to Modesty herself not knowing, there are clues here and there. An ad for the strip that was published before it launched described her as Eurasian, I believe. Other times it's hinted she may be of Middle Eastern descent. This article mentions she first emerged in Greece so she could be Greek or Eastern European. In the comic art she is given a rather exotic look (Romero did this more than others) that could be from any number of regions. Although she later considers herself British it's stated that the UK was adopted homeland. In the movies of course, she was all over the place: Vitti was Italian and played MB as an Italian; Turkel was American and the character was Americanized for US TV; Staden was English. Anecdotally I've seen names like Gal Gadot from Israel and Pryanka Chopra from India on wishlists for playing the character (to be fair, Gadot could fit Holdaway's version, while Chopra could fit the Romero vision of the character). Another point might be an expansion of why O'Donnell created the character: I believe one of the Titan Books says he wanted to create a character women could relate to after having worked on male-aimed strips like James Bond and Garth; one could also imagine characters like Lesley Shayne (a British comic strip character of the 1950s) might have been an inspiration too. 23skidoo (talk) 16:37, 6 March 2024 (UTC)