Talk:Modified Scheme of Elementary Education 1953

why is cleanup required ?
Please explain that as other users like me do not know why it has been up ?Tametiger —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tametiger (talk • contribs) 14:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Hi Tametiger,


 * I think the article needs cleanup for the following reasons:


 * First off, while I admit to knowing nothing about the issue the article is written on, it does seem to have some POV problems; the article makes controversial interpretations of events and doesn't support them with a whole lot of historical evidence. On an issue as controversial as this, the article should be in pristine shape and cite all relevant facts and opinions, so that the article can serve as a good, solid resource for people on both sides of the issue.


 * However, that is not the only reason I added a cleanup tag. Other than that, the article also simply needs a basic "cleanup" to improve things like grammar, punctuation, and spacing. The article's information could probably be presented in a more organized manner, too.


 * Because I know nothing about this subject, I made a post on the Notice board for India-related topics, in the hopes that an experienced editor of India-related articles would come forward and take care of the necessary cleanup.


 * Let me know if you have any additional concerns. – Lantoka  (talk) 07:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

To tametiger- This is onesided political propaganda

article talks of government policy on education by Madras State in early 1950s. But it gives no reference to government policies. All the references are from opposition party's propaganda about government policies. BTW, the follwing are biographies of the then Chief Minister of Madras State. None of them talk about the so-called 'Kula Kalvi Thittam'. I think you are simply misleading ordinary readers with this article. I would request the Admins to withdraw this article since it does not refer to the original documents, but gives only oppostion propaganda.

Rajaji by Monica Felton (Paperback - 30 Mar 2004) Publisher: Katha (30 Mar 2004).

I meet Rajaji by Monica Felton (Unknown Binding - 1962) Publisher: Macmillan;St.Martin's P (1962).

Rajaji, a Life (Paperback) by Raj Mohan Gandhi (Author) Publisher: Penguin Books,India (15 April 2003).

Thousand Days With Rajaji by Bimanesh Chatterjee (Paperback - 1975) Publisher: Orient Paperbacks, New Delhi (1975).

Justice, justices and justicing: Dialectic look at the problem in Indian betting (Rajaji birthday lecture) by V. R Krushna Iyer Publisher: Gokhale Institute of Public Affairs (1980).

Rajaji: (a Study of his personality) by Masti Venkatesa Ayyangar (Unknown Binding - 1975) Publisher: Jeevana Karyalaya (1975). Rajaji: Life and work by R. K Murthi (Unknown Binding - 1979) Publisher: Allora Publications (1979).

Rajaji's speeches by Chakravarti Rajagopalachari (Unknown Binding - 1948) Publisher: Ministry of Information & Broadcasting (1948).

The Rajaji story by Rejmohan Gandhi (Unknown Binding - 1978) Publisher: Bharathan (1978).

Nanarinta Rajaji by Ma. Ponnucami Kiramani Civañanam (Unknown Binding - 1987) Publisher: Punkoti Patippakam (1987).

Rajaji and Gandhi by B. K Ahluwalia (Unknown Binding - 1978) Publisher: Allora Publications (1978)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.12.7.4 (talk • contribs)

Please read the Books mentioned above carefully
Please refer Rajaji, a Life by RajMohan Gandhi refer chapter Downfall Pages 346-354 as  per the edtion I read but Downfall chapter has it.You will see  the topic mentioned .He uses the term Caste based Education Policy instead Kula kalvi thittam  not gone through the others books you mentioned if i get the time I will show you where it is and asked Harlowraman to get the gazatte .Shows You did not go through the books You mentioned here.Sorry the page is not a joke had to ask for protection.It has been vandalised 9 times when Lantoka and Harlowraman had  already refered it to the board.A book must have the chapter about why he quit the Chief Ministership in 1954 and this was the reason.Tametiger 13:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

To the Lady or Gentleman 161.12.7.4 and TameTiger

http://www.freeindia.org/biographies/greatleaders/rajaji/page11.htm This is site which supports Rajaji and decribes him as a genius.Please read here Rajaji brought about educational reforms between 1952-54. There was great opposition to this. Kula Kalvi thittam comes under the Educational system reforms which he undertook which led to resignation in 1954.As Tametiger pointed out to you all government documents,Cabinet decisions of all policies taken prior to the Computer/internet era are not available online.'''Please do a positive edit by describing your point of view regarding the Educational system reforms of Rajaji between 1952-1954 and not Negative edits ie by removing content as it has been done 6 times now by you.This was opposed by Kamaraj.I will reply in detail in some time Harlowraman


 * toHarlowraman: We are not talking of what Rajaji 'felt' ; we are talking of Government policies; all the Government orders are issued by Gazette, known to the public and publsihed in newspapers. All biographical and well-researched books refer to Government orders . You must give reference to such books or contemporary newspaper articles which refer to the alledged government orders. Why do you give reference only to dodgy internet sites. If you cannot refer to Government orders and decisions, I think you are merely indulging in fantasies. Wiki is not a place for indulging in your fantasies. It is upto the authour of the article to support his/her points with research. None of the 9 biographies of Rajaji refer to 'Kula kalvi thittam'


 * to Harlowman : You write "As Tametiger pointed out to you all government documents,Cabinet decisions of all policies taken prior to the Computer/internet era are not available online". This is a lame excuse not to provide documentary evidence, which means this is merely a propaganda. If you cannot refer to books or original newspaper reports of the government orders and government decisions, this article should be removed.

why is cleanup required ? unacceptable references
The references do not refer to the government documents or government notifications, but to the party propaganda of Dravida Kazhagam leader Veeramani.

None of these references have any bearing on policies of the Government of Madras State. They are hagiographies of different politicians who were criticising the government at that time. This is comparable to the situation if you are studying Watergate Scandal, the main references are Bible, life of Mao Dse Tung and so forth and no reference to what Nixon said or did.

http://www.tamilnation.org/hundredtamils/periyar.htm.

http://www.gurjari.net/ico/Mystica/html/varna.htm.

http://www.hindunet.org/varna/.

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main17.asp?filename=Ne042206superiority.asp.

http://www.periyar.org/html/dk_movement_eng.asp.

http://www.themronline.com/200308m1.html.

http://www.tamilnation.org/hundredtamils/kamaraj.htm.

I would request the Wiki administrators to remove this article since the writer of the article is unable to produce any relevant material, but he abuses wiki by making it a platform for some petty political propaganda and personality cult. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.12.7.4 (talk • contribs)

NPOV and please do not delete
Please do a positive edit by describing your point of view regarding the Educational system reforms of Rajaji between 1952-1954 which includes Kula Kalvi thittam and not Negative edits ie by removing content

http://www.sifycorp.com/scripts/aboutus.asp is a company no way connected with Dravida Kazhagam '''All the above sites have nothing to do with Dravida Kazhagam leader Veeramani in any manner. You can check it by visiting the sites.'''
 * http://www.tamilnation.org is a Sri Lankan Tamil Site
 * http://www.tehelka.com is a North Indian site run by Tarun Tejpal Please see Tehelka
 * http://www.gurjari.net is Gujarat based site.
 * http://www.hindunet.org/varna/ is a US based Hindu site
 * http://sify.com/news/politics/fullstory.php?id=13569138 now www.sify.com now Sify

yes only http://www.themronline.com and http://www.periyar.org are linked with Dravida Kazhagam. The problem is the offical Tamil Nadu Government site is not updated before 1990's and hence cannot provide a link from the Government site. http://www.tn.gov.in/government.htm This talk page and this article has been vandalised 6 times .Hence have to request Protection any way it has been raised in the Noticeboard.Look I would not object if someone with knowledge of  Educational system reforms  of Rajaji between 1952-1954 raised any objection .Harlowraman 18:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Harlowraman, none of the site you give has any bearing on the policies of the Madras Govrnment during 1952-54. Are you making a joke to give these references.

http://www.tamilnation.org is a Sri Lankan Tamil Site - gives no original info on Madras Govt.

http://www.tehelka.com is a North Indian site It is an investigative site running for the last few years focussing on current affairs and scandals.

http://www.gurjari.net is Gujarat based site. _ It no way gives info about Madras government policies in the 1950s.

http://www.hindunet.org/varna/: This focusses on Hinduism and knows nothing of Madras Govt in 1952-52.

http://sify.com/news/politics/fullstory.php?id=13569138 now www.sify.com now Sify - this is a political propaganda and nothing original research about Madras govt 1952-54..

http://www.sifycorp.com/scripts/aboutus.asp It is just an internet site containing everything, but not the on history of Madras.

It is pathetic to see more and more irrelevant stuff dredged in.

To the Lady and Gentleman They are relevant to the article these are reliable, third-party sources.They are independent of each other and many of them no way contact to the politics of Dravider Kazagham,Congress or the poltices of Madras and now Tamil Nadu and hence can considered independent and neutral.The official government site where it should be http://www.tn.gov.in/government.htm .The offical government site is not updated before the 1990's.You can check this by visiting the site. Hence not able to provide the links from there.Sources independent and relevent to the article can be provided as per Wikipedia policy.These are reliable, third-party sources.

Please do a positive edit by describing your point of view regarding the Educational system reforms of Rajaji between 1952-1954 which includes Kula Kalvi thittam and not Negative edits ie by removing content.Please provide your point of view with citations  Harlowraman 04:09, 14 December 2006 (UTC).


 * To Harlowman - You admit you are unable to get references to the government policy from any kind of original source; then in that case you are in no position to write this article and you are misleading the wiki readers. Go and do some research; any good book on any alleged Government Policy looks at the wording of Government Orders as published by the Govt. Till that happens, you are wasting everybody's time by giving irrelevant references. I gave you a list of 9 biographies of C.Rajagopalachari, whose name is mentioned in the article. They are not from dodgy internet sites you give. These are books available in the Amazon. None of refer to the imaginary 'policy' you write about.

Please stop deleting it is called vandalism.Anyway it has been refered to the noticeboard.www.Sify.com,www.tamilnation.org,http://www.tehelka.com & www.hindunet will not refer to imaginary polices.Harlowraman said that it is not available on the internet ie in the Tamil Nadu government site.It is available in Government gazettes offline.It has not been uploaded on the internet on to the Government site by the Tamil Nadu government .That does not mean it is imaginary.Harlowraman I Know it is not required  under Wikipedia policy.This site is where  ordinary people can update with citations. Can you just that Gazette copy and finish up this debate mate.Where are U from Harlowraman India ?Rajaji made a speech about this in Tiruvanmiyur in Chennai in 1952 after becoming Chief Minister about this policy.It  was not part of the Congress manifesto during the  1952 elections.Just get it  and end this agony,I know not required under WIKI policy.Tametiger 16:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Tametiger, you don't understand what is a government policy. Governemnt policy is decided by government; public speeches don't become 'policy'. Before 1967 election, DMK promised over public speeches cheap rice (3 padis of rice per rupee !!), but it never became government policy; the DMK leaders in their speeches support Srilanka Tamils or LTTE; but that is never the policy of the government. DMK talks of 'Dravida nadu' in speeches, but that is never the government policy. All government policies are published in gazette. You can get gazettes like this for more than 100 years, if you do your research. Unless you refer to government policies as published, you cannot talk of 'Hereditary education policy'. What this article talks is pure fantasy in the absense of reference to government policies as published in the gazette. Do some useful work.

Harlowraman is trying to hijack facts since it is not available online at the tamil nadu goverment wesite. It is fact that rajaji intoduced kulakalvi thittam. Every one from Tamil Nadu is aware of it.

The tone of the article is biased
The tone does not meet Wikipedia's expectations of a neutral article. Hence tagged NPOV. It is well refereenced you and add your point of view with references anyway not removed NPOV Harlowraman

This article is not Notable enough on its own - Please merge it with Dravidian Movement
This is one of the issues raised by the Dravidian Movement, and does not have enough substance to be its own article. Please merge it with Dravidian Movement as a subsection.

It is more relevent with Rajaji as he quit over this policy it was reversed by Kamaraj Harlowraman 22:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Complete rewrite
I have rewritten the article using primary sources. The official source is the guidebook issued by the education department in 1953. The indian education ministry site, quotes extensively from the guidebook. Now that primary sources are available, please use them to add information instead of secondary,tertiary and hearsay sources. The criticism and defense quotations are taken directly from periyar and rajaji. The protest section and cancellation section are sourced from TN legislative assembly records. I have used only solid facts for them. The criticism section has a couple of uncited points - i will be adding sources from google books and old tamil mags later. I have managed to keep out my bias in the article (my thoughts : Hanlon's razor). For supporters of rajaji - there are enough speeches he made defending the scheme. For supporters of DK and periyar - periyar and DMK wrote reams about this. Please use direct quotes and not take them as the absolute truth. Currently the article is not copy edited, i will be doing it lately.

The scheme was known by various names - modified scheme of elementary education. Not many have heard of the official name - it is one of the reasons, this article was so poorly written and sourced before. Use this term in searching online or offline for finding more information.

And most importantly please MAINTAIN NEUTRAL POV :-)

Sodabottle (talk) 13:49, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

some suggestions

 * 1) rewrite lead summarising the whole article
 * 2) background section cost and numbers (rupees, lakh and crores) have to be standardised.
 * 3) Modified scheme section title is ambiguous. modified from 1939 scheme? do we need modified in the title. -- Car Tick  13:59, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

1 and 2 Done. will rewrite lead later. --Sodabottle (talk) 14:40, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * rewrote lead. still small (since this is a highly controversial topic, i am keeping it extremely bland) - --Sodabottle (talk) 16:23, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * sounds concise and clear. doesnt have to be big always. I will copy it to Rajai administration page and link it from there. great. -- Car Tick  16:36, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Compulsory vocational education?
Hellow Wikipedians, The Article mentions, /* As per this policy schools were to work in the morning and students had to compulsorily learn the family vocation in the afternoon. */ whereas, the book, Rajaji: A life - says that it was not compulsory. This has to be modified. https://books.google.com/books?id=45pYCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT202&lpg=PT202&dq=did+rajaji+closed+schools+in+1938&source=bl&ots=wHFbeR6hTM&sig=j39W2xOrU6uiIvGKDx3aiucm-90&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJvK6Bhu3cAhVG5oMKHUz9BnMQ6AEwCXoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=school&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mageshsai (talk • contribs) 23:05, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)
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Capitalization
According to this source, it is Modified Scheme of Elementary Education, not Modified Scheme of Elementary education.

Should this be fixed? If so, how does this get fixed? Icandostuff (talk) 20:20, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
 * please refer to Requested moves for info about renaming. Welcome to Wikipedia! Adumbrativus (talk) 01:50, 29 October 2023 (UTC)