Talk:Modoc War

Photos
I've recently visited Lava Beds National Monument and took some photos that may be useful here. See User:Maveric149/Images - Lava Beds National Monument. --mav 09:42, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Reference
A good reference for the modoc war is a book titled The Indian History of the Modoc War(ISBN hardcover 0-913522-03-1) It is authored by Jeff C. Riddle and was first Printed in 1914. Mr. Riddle, was he himself, a Modoc Indian, the son of the chief figure in that struggle. He witnessed most of the events that he describes in the book. A lot of the events described in this website are contrary to the story written by Riddle. It is unusually odd to me to find so many different stories in regard to this sad page of American history. 132 years after the tragic events that occurred in the region of southern Oregon and northern California, it is still somewhat a mystery given the contrary of evidence that is available to us in present date. While some speculate that the so called savage Modoc Indians were murdering ruthless people, some settlers have said that they lived in harmony with them for quite a long time. I hope that some of the people that read this will find it a must to seek the truth themselves and formulate their own opinion of what is factual and what is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)


 * ref to book added. thanks. (p.s. you can add ~ to your messages anywhere on the 'pedia and it will automatically add your name and the date.) jengod 05:47, Feb 3, 2004 (UTC)


 * Added more info, as the book is available online at Internet Archive.Parkwells (talk) 20:27, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Note that Jeff Riddle was not the "son of the chief figure." Jeff's father was Frank Riddle, a white man married to a Modoc woman, both of whom worked as translators for the Army. Jeff's Mother, Toby (or Tobey), was a neice of Capt. Jack, the "chief figure." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.189.64.2 (talk) 21:51, 10 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Both the Riddles worked as interpreters earlier in this period and during the peace talks. Winema (or Toby) Riddle, carried messages between the commissioners and Capt. Jack. She reported having overheard that the Modoc were planning an attack against the commissioners, but they went ahead with the April 10 meeting. There she saved the life of Alfred B. Meacham, chairman, by interrupting the warriors, yelling that soldiers were coming. They fled and he was saved from being scalped.  He dedicated a book to her, which was about her, and petitioned Congress to grant her a military pension for her heroism, which it finally did in 1891. And, he arranged for Toby and Frank Riddle, as well as other Modoc and Klamath, to go with him on a national lecture tour about the war and its issues.  So she was a major figure, just a different kind.Parkwells (talk) 20:25, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for noticing the "discrepencies". Jeff Riddle's book is what I used for my novel, Lost River, Berkley, 1999. As you know, the great majority of American Indian history was written by non-Indian historians, encompassing their cultural viewpoints and prejudices. -- Pax Riddle —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Canby's Cross
Comments moved from main page by Katr67

Canby's Cross, contrary to this article, is not erected where he fell if the peace tent was erected where this article claims. Canby's Cross is erected very near the south shore of Tule Lake between the shoreline and the north side of Captain Jack's Stronghold and what is now the Lava Beds National Monument (LBNM). This article states the Peace Tent was erected 1.5 miles west which would place it in the valley above and behind the bluff that overlooks the Lava Beds on the western side. The actual site is now private property and the dirt road that runs west over Gold Diggers Pass is as close as the public can get today. Of the soldiers that were buried in a cemetery west of where Canby's Cross stands today, all were exhumed and reburied mostly at the Presidio in San Franciso. The lava rock perimeter that marks the military cemetery stills stands in the northwest corner of the LBNM.

This amendment is not based on what I've read but what I've seen and heard during the many days I spent exploring the area over a 22 year period. It was possible to drive west over Gold Driggers Pass out of the LBNM through several ranchs before reaching HWY 97 if you opened and closed several cattle gates as you went but, it's been many years since I've traveled through the west side ranchs out and the road was very bad then. I wouldn't suggest trying it without a very rugged four wheeler with a low center of gravity and a very high axle base. The ruts are extremely deep and your cell phones probably won't work out there. If you get stuck you'll face perhaps two problems; having to walk out and getting cited for tresspassing on private property. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

The cemetary marks Gillem's Camp at the base of the bluff, and Canby's Cross is located at the site of his death about .8 miles to the east of the cemetary (just off Hill Road). The turn off from the road to Jack's Stronghold is about 2.25 miles east of the Cross. The Cross marks the Peace Tent and is located inside the National Monument boundaries. 198.189.64.2 (talk) 22:02, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Paraphrasing
I have a hunch that large parts of this article are either paraphrased or quoted verbatim in a manner inconsistent with true research.

Furthermore, as part of this paraphrasing old-school type bias against the Modoc sticks out. While I'm able to read through this (and hopefully others) and see it as permissible: 1) It'd be nice if someone could make sure that the paraphrasing isn't so heavy that it includes source bias so clearly and 2) It'd be nice if other perspectives of the events in question were contemplated. Maybe including other perspectives would obscure the narrative, granted. But as good and natural as bias is in first-hand sources, I would hope that representatives of an intelligent species would choose to couch their history in more humble terms.

-Wikipedia User "Epigraphist", from remote source 35.9.174.13 (talk) 01:45, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Media accounts from the time
I recall reading that the Klamath (Linkville at the time) residents hated the Modoc and wanted to organize militias to kill them, but that California residents and newspapers were pretty supportive and traded with the Modocs. There was also involvement from peace and human rights activists on the east coast asi recall. It seems like the media coverage of the war would be good to include. It was a very interesting conflict that included a lot of the issues and problems inherent in US-Indian interractions and policies. The military were there to defend settlers, but also in some cases to protect the Indians and keep order. You had a lot of different political and economic interests involved. Anyway, good luck. It's a cool area to visit for birding, lava tubes and volcanice sights (many unmarked and open to exploring), as well as history. Captain Jack's restaurant is pretty good too as I recall. Didn't some of the Modoc go on tour afterwards? This would be a good addition too if it's not in there. Many of teh perceptions and views were colored by newspaper accoutns and these Wild West shows taht served as the popular culture of the time.(JoeTimko (talk) 02:23, 28 October 2008 (UTC))

Captain Jack's Stronghold
This guy has been largely redeemed in revised histories. And he has his own restaurant: Captain Jack's Stronghold Restaurant on Hwy 139 Tulelake CA 96134 530-664-5566 Captain Jack's Stronghold Restaurant is a landmark in the Tulelake - Lava beds National Monument area. Homemade pies, soups and bread are specialties. Was he known as Kientpoos? It seems like the names given in the article are all Western. (JoeTimko (talk) 02:34, 28 October 2008 (UTC))

Table Rock Treaty???
I am not sure where to place this, so I am providing a link for the information and hope that someone else will place it later... Samuel Colver became an Indian Agent in the Rogue River Valley, where he was a signer of the Table Rock Treaty that effectively ended the Modoc Indian War. UofOregon Library.

Unless there were two Table Rock Treaties, which is possible, the Table Rock Treaty referred to here is way before the war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greg.collver (talk • contribs) 16:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Modocs

 * Did they have a blunt Tomahawk or a piercing one. I don't know. The blunt ones were a fashion statement since armor in teh northern theatre were useless in a dense forest. Mt knowledge is useless. InternetHero (talk) 21:13, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Blogs are not reliable sources (RS)
According to Wikipedia, blogs are not RS unless managed by an official site, such as a newspaper, TV station, etc. Deleted an assertion about activities of the shaman attributed to a blog by Erik on Ghost Dancing. Parkwells (talk) 20:25, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Wrong date in template?
I'm not a native speaker of english, so I might have gotten something wrong, but why states the template "July 6, 1874 – June 4, 1876" as date of the war? The information in the text doesn't seem to support this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.97.201.116 (talk) 16:41, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ It was vandalism--thank you for pointing it out! Valfontis (talk) 17:44, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Using the plural
Hmmm. I'm sure I made these edits years ago, so perhaps the author could fix them again? I suggest replacing all singular references to the Modoc people as "Modocs" and not "Modoc". After all, we don't refer to non-Native peoples in this way, right? We don't say "the German"; we say "the Germans", etc. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Histfic (talk • contribs) 16:40, 3 April 2012 (UTC)


 * But we do say "the Russian people", the French (people understood). That is why the people should be referred to as "the Modoc", as a group.Parkwells (talk) 18:54, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Movie Drum Beat
Hi all. I'd never heard of this war but just saw the 1954 film Drum Beat on cable. I thought this should be mentioned in your article. It's a Hollywood film, but it's still accurate regarding the historical details; and unlike the typical cowboys and Indians films of the time, it treats both sides fairly. Thought you might be interested in mentioning it as a popular account of the war.

Captain Jack is played by Charles Bronson, in his first starring role.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046936/

71.198.226.61 (talk) 07:32, 20 July 2012 (UTC) steve@your-mailbox.com

"Jump Off Joe" McAlester?
Could someone please delete "Jump Off" Joe Mcalester from the list of "Leaders" in the Modoc War as he is a fictional character and not an actual person involved in the war? Seriously. Likewise, may we delete the passage about the "massacre" on December 3, 1872? There was no such battle or such massacre in any record of the Modoc War, and this appears to be entirely made up (and obviously, not cited).

Having done a fair bit of research into the Modoc War looking at both secondary and primary sources, and I've never see any references to a "Jump Off Joe" McAlester. (For example, Erwin N. Thompson, in his MODOC WAR Its Military History & Topography, names all the local settlers who were at the Battle of Lost River, and no McAlester appears.)

Nor have I see any evidence of a fight between the militia and the Modocs on Dec. 3, 1872 (in which the current entry claims 23 militiamen were all massacred by the Modocs). So, where is this "info" coming from? What are the sources on this person and the events he supposedly was involved in? I'm convinced that this "Jump Off Joe" and the fight on Dec. 3 is entirely fictitious, and I recommend that all mention of him be deleted from the Modoc War entry. Beanbag82 (talk) 17:27, 1 March 2014 (UTC)Beanbag82 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beanbag82 (talk • contribs) 17:16, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed all references to "Jump Off Joe" McAlester from the Modoc War entry as he is an entirely fictional character. Also, the reference to the Modocs massacring McAlester and his militia has been removed as no such event took place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beanbag82 (talk • contribs) 03:06, 9 February 2017 (UTC) OK, deleted, again, all references to "Jump Off Joe" McAlester from the Modoc War entry as he is an entirely fictional character. If you've got documented citations for such a person in the events of the Modoc War, by all means, bring them into the entry. But he is a fictional, legendary character and had no involvement in the Modoc War. Beanbag82 (talk) 20:37, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Ben Wright
The Ben Wright Massacre needs some looking into. As I recall, Wright was seeking to regain two white women that were held captive but it was just a ruse by the Indians to massacre Wright and his men. So outnumbered by the Indians, Wright met their chief who then told him it was a trap but Wright, suspecting as much, had two pistols under his serape and shot the chief dead, whereupon his men opened fire. 50.202.81.2 (talk) 00:25, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Captain William Francis Drannan U.S. Army Scout etc
Captain Drannan's stories have been in dispute for many years. Google: Captain William F. Drannan, U.S. Army scout Retrieved: 23 January 2015. All my Relations Tjlynnjr (talk) 05:17, 23 January 2015 (UTC).

Not spam.
At or about 15:16, 22 October 2015 User:GermanJoe did the following edit: (External links: rmv - EL spam (SPA)). SEE HISTORY. This action removed the "Oregon Experience" series documentary film The Modoc War which was produced by Oregon Public Broadcasting in cooperation with the Oregon Historical Society. I reviewed the film and detected no spam, nor advertisements. I have restored the external link. All my Relations Tjlynnjr (talk) 20:55, 24 October 2015 (UTC).
 * You're correct. The documentary is without spam and is very well researched. Activist (talk) 11:36, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Only Californian Indian War?
Although the Modoc War is certainly the best known and publicized war, the Humboldt County Indian Wars, titled in Wikipedia as the Bald Hills War, occurred earlier. Because it was during the Civil War, and it was undertaken by California Militia, not Regular Army, it certainly didn't receive the widespread notice of the Modoc conflict. Perhaps there are other wars as well; I know about this one because I'm native to that county. Yet I'm hesitant to edit the statement. Are there some particular criteria that makes a conflict an official "Indian War"?PhilD86 (talk) 06:00, 17 November 2015 (UTC)