Talk:Mogilev Conference

Copyedit questions...

 * "Centre" or "Center"? both are used... we should settle on one spelling. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:19, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)


 * "Bach-Zelewski's session was entitled "The Capture of Kommissars and Partisans in 'Scouring-Actions', referring to the activities of the SS Cavalry Brigade in the "Pripyat swamps" punitive operation." - what was the title of his talk - there is no ending " to make it clear.. I THINK the title was "The Capture of Kommissars and Partisans in 'Scouring-Actions'", but am not sure. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:26, 24 December 2017 (UTC) Got this one by checking with the source. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:50, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * need to define "filtration camps"... I know what it is but the casual reader isn't going to have a clue. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:31, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)


 * "The conference marked a dramatic increase in atrocities by the Wehrmacht units against Jews and other civilians in the last three months of 1941." - I think it marked a dramatic increase for the rest of the war... not just the last three months of 1941. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:33, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Beorn studied the period of 1941 - early 1942. So I think it's better to keep the dates that he covered. In any case, the "Holocaust by bullet" was largely over by mid-1942, IIRC; the remaining Jewish population was concentrated in ghettos and the German tactics changed to deportation to death camps. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)


 * link for "1st SS Cavalry Regiment"? Ealdgyth - Talk 15:49, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * See: SS Cavalry Brigade (SS-Kavallerie-Brigade). Kierzek (talk) 15:52, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but for the non-military person - either a link to that or a quick blurb in this article saying that the 1st SS Cavalry was a constituent part of the SS Cavalry Brigade would be useful. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:56, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)


 * I think an expansion of the coverage of what other talks/presentations/etc would be useful. I note that Beorn's got some additional details on what was covered - the fact that there were sand table presentations on various tactical exercises, the fact that there was an afternoon field exercise that watched the surrounding of a village and distribution of leaflets, and the third field exercise on the last morning. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:56, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)


 * I think that Beorn's point about the document produced at the end needs to be borne (oooh, bad pun) out more - he says "Much of it was devoted to the nuts and bolts of conducting various forms of anti-partisan operations." (p. 102). The article probably should also cover Beorn's point "The executive summary of the Mogilev Conference did not specifically mention Jews." but that at least one attendee took away from the Conference that "'where the Partisan is, there is the Jew. Where the Jew is, there is the Partisan.'" (p. 104). Ealdgyth - Talk 16:01, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅; added to the "Assessment" section. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:28, 27 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Beorn notes that the commander of the 2nd SS Cavalry Regiment was not invited, perhaps because he was not viewed as extreme enough on the "Jewish question", as he only massacred Jewish males, and not all Jews. Probably an important detail. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Some good expansion thoughts, Ealdgyth. I can add the blub on the 1st SS Cavalry. I am sure can assist, as well. Although, given tomorrow is Christmas, it may be a day or two before much is done. Kierzek (talk) 16:05, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * No hurry. K.e. coffman had asked for a copyedit from GOCE which didn't go well. I noticed the problem and offered to copyedit the article for him, since I am at least familiar with the subject matter and (obviously) have some of the sources. I'm digging through other sources now, but not turning up anything that's not already covered in greater detail in Beorn. There is nothing in Arad's The Holocaust in the Soviet Union, for example. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:09, 24 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Beorn has a good analysis of the attendees o pages 96-97, which might be usefully summarized. He also mentions that the total number of attendees was 61. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:17, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Beorn notes that the conference document was sent to all company-level units in the army group's area of operations - including to units that did not send representatives to the conference. He notes that "its lessons both became approved policy and reached units that had not had representatives in Mogilev." (p. 103). Beorn also notes that "Greater collaboration between the SD and the Wehrmacht also became more evident after the conference." (p. 107). Ealdgyth - Talk 16:17, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:28, 27 December 2017 (UTC).


 * Another good quote is on page 108 "The conference instructed the Wehrmacht to intentionally target Jews in its anti-partisan operations." and that the results of the conference that the "anti-partisan war was the perfect vehicle for harnessing the combat power of the army to help solve the 'Jewish problem'." Beorn notes that von Brauchitsch's "Guidelines for the Fighting of Partisans" that he issued to the entire German army one month after the conference included a verbatim copy of part of Schenckendorff's summary of the conference document. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:21, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:28, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I was thinking you could add something like this: The SS Cavalry Brigade was made up of the 1st and 2nd SS Cavalry Regiments, which in July and August 1941 had carried out the Pripyat swamps (punitive operation). That operation has since been considered a turning point in the transition from "selective mass murder" to the wholesale extermination of the Jewish population in occupied areas. (I can add the cite, or you will see where I got it from in a prior addition of mine to SS Cavalry Brigade article. Then you can add the tie-in part about "the commander of the 2nd SS Cavalry Regiment was not invited, perhaps because he was not viewed as extreme enough on the "Jewish question", as he only massacred Jewish males, and not all Jews." I must go for now, real life calls, Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 16:33, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ I put this into two places.K.e.coffman (talk) 18:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Assessment section
I should probably add an "Assessment" section based on analysis by Beorn. The article was kind of bare bones; there's more meat now, so an analysis section would be appropriate. I will work on that next.
 * ✅. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:28, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the helpful suggestions so far! K.e.coffman (talk) 18:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Review so far
I think I addressed all of the comments. Additional feedback would be welcome! K.e.coffman (talk) 18:28, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Source: A Calculus of Complicity
Thank you for the work so far! I also have the below article by Beorn, which is likely adopted from his book Marching into Darkness:


 * “A Calculus of Complicity: The Wehrmacht, the Anti-Partisan War, and the Final Solution in White Russia, 1941–42”. By: Beorn, Waitman W. Central European History (Cambridge University Press / UK). June 2011, Vol. 44 Issue 2, p308-337. 30p.
 * Abstract: The article presents an examination into the complicity and collaboration of the German Wehrmacht with the Jewish Holocaust within the military campaigns of World War II. Details are given highlighting the involvement of the German military's anti-partisan efforts on the Eastern Front and how it led to the Wehrmacht's direct execution of Jewish civilians in Belarus. Subjects discussed include (…) the Mogilev anti-partisan conference held in September 1941 and its decision to treat Jewish civilians as military targets. DOI: 10.1017/S0008938911000057.

I could email it to anyone interested. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:13, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * If it comes from his RS book, I would use that. Ealdgyth has some very good ideas and further inclusion of Beorn's work would be a welcome addition to the article. Kierzek (talk) 20:18, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Slight clarification; the article appeared first, in 2011, and the material was used in the 2014 book. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:56, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I assumed it did; the book is still a superior RS source for the same information; a more substantial review process would have been done and it is a newer publication of information. If there is some different information given on some point in the article, which you want to add, then by all means use it. I don't believe anyone will question the source. Kierzek (talk) 16:45, 3 January 2018 (UTC)