Talk:Mohamed Bouazizi/Archive 1

Calm down, this page ain't going anywhere
To all the posters above, looking at the consensus of the discussion on the nomination page, this page is not going to be deleted, so don't worry. However, you are welcome to improve the article by adding information and references. Pufferfish1☢1 02:23, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * then why is it still marked for possible deletion? Anyone thinking the guy whose actions catalyzed the downfall of a 23-year-old dictatorship aren't notable - is just plain nuts. That's me the reasonable every-day middle-of-the road guy speaking. Pär Larsson (talk) 19:08, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Any user is able to mark an article for deletion, but if it is a clearly notable subject, then it will be kept. The current deletion discussion clearly shows that the article will be kept, but these discussions are meant to last for seven days, which is why the discussion is still ongoing. I repeat the words of Pufferfish above, no worries, the article will be sticking around. Silver  seren C 00:15, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Date and details of self-immolation?
Unless I'm mistaken, the date of the self-immolation is nowhere given in the article. Please add if you know. -- 77.189.109.38 (talk) 10:53, 18 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Done. Glennconti (talk) 15:03, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I hate to be so morbid, but it seems this source (14 Jan) is cited as saying Mr. Bouazizi used two bottles of paint thinner for the act, while this one (13 Jan) is cited as saying he used gasoline. Please correct this contradiction if more information becomes available. Jaimalalatete (talk) 20:38, 19 January 2011 (UTC)


 * You are right. That is one of the reasons why there are multiple accounts of the immolation day in the article. There is also the curious contradiction of whether a) street vending is illegal or b) did he not have a permit. If it was a simple matter of purchasing a permit, then why not just do it? My personal conjecture is that street vending was legal and he was not required by law to have a permit, however the local police would shake down the lowly street vendors making their lives hell. As more solid details arise I'm sure the article will get refined. Glennconti (talk) 22:13, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Interesting article from the BBC on self-immolation from a muslim arab perspective
Why do people set themselves on fire? By Kathryn Westcott, 18 January 2011. Should provide some material for the article. walk victor falktalk 16:14, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Name
Can someone who is fluent in Arabic take a look at ID card shown in this video here, for his name? You can see it at 1:41 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm0lDtW9ONM

Using Google Translate on the Arabic Wikipedia article the name shown in the infobox is Tarek al-Tayyib Muhammad ibn Bouazizi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.37.125 (talk) 22:21, 19 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Twice IP users have changed the name to Tarek al-Tayyib Muhammad ben Bouazizi. They have done this unsourced though so I reverted it and I can't find a source that uses the ben'. If someone has a definitive source? WP France is just using the name Tarek Bouazizi - FYI. Glennconti (talk) 12:30, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Photo's
It looks like the photos in this article are going to go away due to copyright issues. Here are links to photo's of the immolation for anyone with the stomach for it:

1) http://i.imgur.com/sxIHh.jpg 2) http://i.imgur.com/Lbdjb.jpg 3) http://i.imgur.com/bzq0g.jpg

Glennconti (talk) 22:46, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

The above photo's 2) and 3) were shown NOT to be of Bouazizi. I don't know about 1). Glennconti (talk) 21:05, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali visiting Mohamed Bouazizi in the hospital from AFP-- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 21:49, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

[http://twitpic.com/3reiqd The grave of mohammed bouazizi RIP draped in a tunisian flag ... on Twitpic] Glennconti (talk) 19:18, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Facebook???
Did Bouazizi really take time after the confrontation with the police woman to update his facebook page? The Time article said he killed himself less than an hour after the confrontation. So he had to a) go to the Governor's office and get rejected b) buy paint thinner c) update his facebook page d) ignite himself? And the second point - he was dirt poor. He certainly didn't have a computer or smart phone (I am supposing here) so that means he also went to an Internet cafe? To me it doesn't add up. So I am proposing we consider dropping the facebook suicide note material. Glennconti (talk) 03:35, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Try and follow the references please, they are there for a reason. There are screenshots of his message. None of this is original research, what matters is it's verifiable. Neither is there any evidence saying otherwise. Removing it would constitute original research. Until a more reputable source says the facebook message is not his, it can not be removed. And yes, his webcam pic in his facebook page indicates he uses an internet cafe.-- Obsidi ♠ n Soul  03:56, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Copycat
Many more are listed at 2011 Algerian riots... - EmeutesAlgerie (talk) 16:36, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Some errors!!
You can find the photo of self-immolation on this page dated 03/23/2009 http://www.envazhi.com/?p=5470 which means it is inaccurate.

Someone raised the point, it is highly improbable Mohamed Bouazizi left a message on his wall on Facebook. Could he have written it from his bed at the hospital? What is the policy for Wikipedia when the source is more than likely to have forged the information?

The transliteration from Araby to Tunisian Arabic is incorrect. I corrected it twice. Anyone who reads and understands Arabic could correct it.

The translation to English is inaccurate. It shows the translator does not understand the Tunisian dialect. I am not criticizing the wording but even the meaning has been altered. You need to know that Arabic is very different from one country to another and even from one region to another. I made a small correction. I do not exactly know where the "original research" in my contribution is, anyways, you surely know better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.0.112.171 (talk) 20:16, 22 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The image of the immolation has been removed. Thank you for finding that and pointing it out. Glennconti (talk) 21:02, 22 January 2011 (UTC)


 * This is true and probably what Glennconti wanted to say earlier. However, back then we could not ascertain if the meaning was correct. Until now, his mother still hasn't said anything about the facebook message which is strange. But a lot of news sources do say he did leave a facebook message. Which leaves us with a problem.


 * It might count as a controversial subject for now. I will temporarily remove it until we can ascertain its truth. The article is still covered under WP:BLP since it is a recent death (and still very controversial). The message can be considered potentially libelous or sensationalist (especially after what you just pointed out concerning the picture used). The original source of the facebook message is less than credible and the reports of it from reputable news sources are all secondhand. Furthermore at the time, I tried to find Bouazizi's alleged facebook account with no luck, but then again maybe facebook took it down after the incident.


 * As for the translation I have requested before for those fluent in Arabic to see if the translations were accurate (it is copied verbatim from the sources). But yeah, it's Tunsi, and it's a different language altogether. Are there any Tunisian editors around? Or even just those who speak it fluently? Could you confirm as well?


 * Anyway for now, I will be moving the alleged facebook message to the following subpage as it is too controversial to remain there while we discuss this.


 * /allegedfacebookmessage


 * -- Obsidi ♠ n Soul  12:54, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Copycat incidents
Hi, I saw this article mentioned in IRC and curiosity led to me to read it. I feel like there could be a better term used here instead of "copycat incidents". The copycat suicide article offers up some alternatives. In addition to a more specific section title, I also feel it would be helpful to have a bit of an explanation as to why these January 2011 self-immolations are being considered copycats of Bouazizi's considering self-immolation is something that has been practiced for centuries. Thoughts? Lara 13:39, 23 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah... it's a bit sensationalist. It's the terminology that news sources use. Can't think of any similar terms offhand though. :/ Also self-immolation has been practiced for centuries but is quite uncommon to unknown in Islamic countries as suicide is a very strong religious taboo. They are unquestionably connected to Bouazizi's self-immolation given the time frame and the countries involved.-- Obsidi ♠ n Soul  14:00, 23 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't question that they're connected, I just feel we need to make it all a bit more clear. I did some work on the article, but need to get to some school work now. I will come back to work on it more should it still need it in some days (or maybe during a break from reading and essay writing later today); but specifically for this section, I'm thinking it would perhaps be better to title the section "Werther effect" and lead it off by explaining what that is, which is "a massive wave of emulation suicides after a widely publicized suicide." That's from Copycat suicide. Perhaps I'm being too picky... or too American. My first thought upon reading it was "How possibly are these copycats? People have been self-immolating as a form of political protest throughout much of history!" Of course, then the cultural differences occurred to me. That said, perhaps also we can find a source (or sources) that explain what you just have&mdash;that self-immolation is extremely uncommon (or unheard of entirely) in Islamic countries due to the strong religious taboo surrounding suicide? Lara  15:51, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Deletion
Why is the page considered for deletion? Bouazizi has become a public figure and a national symbol in Tunisia but also the rest of the Arab world. I am not familiar with WP guidelines but if there something that could be done, I will be happy to help!
 * Thank God this page wasn't deleted--this man's actions have created a tremendous change in world history. 174.65.89.213 (talk) 07:38, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Why would this article be targeted for deletion?
From the Washington Post: "Their rage at political and economic disenfranchisement spilled over last month with the desperate act of an unemployed man. Mohammed Bouazizi, 26, distraught when police confiscated his unlicensed produce stand, set himself on fire on Dec. 17 and died on Jan. 3. Soon, several other unemployed youth tried to commit suicide, and at least one of them did. Is there a more poignant portrayal of what ails the Arab world than images of its young people killing themselves as their leaders get older and richer?

Human rights groups say more than 60 people have died in clashes with Ben Ali's security forces since Dec. 17, but Bouazizi's self-immolation has come to symbolize what many are calling the Jasmine Revolution."

I admit I am ignorant of Wikipedia's standards in this regard. Certainly Mr. Bouazizi is as significant as say Neda Soltani, to whom an entire article is dedicated here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.160.201.175 (talk) 02:07, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

This page should not be deleted. This man is now considered by many to be a hero.--Aa2-2004 (talk) 11:56, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Further evidence why the page should NOT be deleted
I totally agree with the previous comments, the page should not be deleted. Mr Bouazizi has become the symbol of the Tunisian revolution, an unprecedented case in the 'Arab world', this is the first time that an 'Arab leader' is forced to leave power by a popular uprising. Not only would it be a disgrace to delete the page, it would amount to distorting historical facts and events. Prominent commentators have acknowledged Mr. Bouazizi's role in igniting the recent events that have unfolded in Tunisia, The Economist, "Tunisia's troubles" is one of them: (Jan 13, 2011):

"Since December 17th, when a young man in the city of Sidi Bouzid set himself on fire to protest against chronic unemployment and police brutality, spontaneous protests have spread from the poor interior to more prosperous coastal cities."

The New York Times, "Joy as Tunisian President Flees Offers Lesson to Arab Leaders" is another: (Jan 14, 2011)

"Mohamed Bouazizi, the 26-year-old university graduate who could find work only as a fruit and vegetable vendor. He set himself on fire in a city square in December when the police seized his cart and mistreated him. A Facebook page called Tunisians hailed him as 'the symbol of the Tunisian revolution.' 'God have mercy on you, Tunisia’s martyr, and on the all free martyrs of Tunisia,' it read. “One candle burns to create light and one candle beats all oppression.” In Egypt, his name came up at a small solidarity protest."

Of course, this does not mean that he was the only factor that brought about the revolution, nonetheless his martyrdom was certainly crucial. --JAR (talk) 04:56, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Mohamed Bouazizi and all the innocent Tunisians who lost their lives are martyrs of the country's struggle against the former regime. January 14, 2011 must be celebrated to remember the end of Ben Ali's tyranny. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.96.112.102 (talk) 20:17, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Although the protests in Tunisia are still ongoing, it is clear that the self-immolation of Mohamed Bouazizi acted as a sort of catalizer for the popular uprising. His act can be compared to that of the Vietnamese Buddhist monk, Thích_Quảng_Đức, whose act ultimately contributed to the downfall of the South Vietnamese leader Ngô Đình Diệm. Ftalmeida73 (talk) 22:35, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Again evidence from the BBC News, "Could other Arab countries follow Tunisia's example?" (Jan 14, 2011): "Arabs everywhere identified with Mohamed Bouazizi. When the 26-year-old Tunisian graduate - despairing of getting a decent job and abused by the police - set fire to himself in a public square, his story resonated far beyond his provincial town. When he later died of his injuries, he became both a symbol and a martyr."--JAR (talk) 22:25, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

This page should NOT be deleted. It should be instead improved.
This man is considered a notional hero in Tunisia, and will be remembered for many years. I wouldn't be surprised if a statue would be built once for him.

When I wanted to read about Tunisia's protests, I wanted to know about Mohamed Bouazizi. This is an example of the importance of this page. It would be a shame if there was no page.

Here are headlines explaining the importance of this page: How a man setting fire to himself sparked an uprising in Tunisia

Public suicide attempt sparks angry riots in central Tunisia

All4peace (talk) 04:22, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm strongly in favour for keeping the article, Wikipedia has always been, and will continue to be the ultimate reference of historical accounts. In view of this, I believe it will be a grief injustice in denying Mr. Mohamed Bouazizi the role he played in sparking the recent uprising in Tunisia, which ultimately lead to the toppling of the previous corrupt government headed by Ben Ali and his family. This is a historical event by all means, which in turn will define the future of Tunisia for generations to come. For one to give up his most precious possession which is his own life, in order for others to have a better future is someone we should all remember, he certainly deserves a better recognition

Furthermore, the life and death of Mohammed Bouazizi sum up the conditions of the Arabic world  today in terms of high unemployment rates, especially among university graduate whom are unable to provide a respectable and decent living for their families. His single action might even play a more significant role if the recent uprising in Tunisia is followed by a “domino effect” in neighbouring countries in the region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Siu02kw (talk • contribs) 00:07, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Keep
I suggest you to keep this article. His role in the 2010-2011 Tunisian protests is clear and important. 79.10.36.29 (talk) 22:48, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Over ten years, people will still remember him that started the "Jasmin Revolution"
This man is who started the protests which led to the revolution in Tunisia. This man is a hero. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.210.19.18 (talk) 20:09, 17 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Apparently the Tunisians themselves prefer the term "Intifada" instead of the whole "Jasmine" thing. See http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0118/Tunisia-Not-a-Jasmine-Revolution-not-a-twitter-revolution-but-an Pär Larsson (talk) 19:09, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

(Lihaas (talk) 00:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)).


 * Faida Hamdi or the local police should be given some credit for starting these revolutions. It would be ironic that the officials who are responsible to protect society, have through their over zealous actions, really caused the end of their own Government, and several other Governments. Sadly, just as one man, Gavrilo Princip, started WWI with a gun. The police started these revolutions over a vendor permit. Perhaps a plaque with "The slap heard around the world" and a statue of a policewoman with scales upheld in one hand and in the other raised to slap would be a fitting tribute?Septagram (talk) 07:47, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Visit of Ben Ali
Why no mention of Ben Ali's visit to his bedside? Chesdovi (talk) 18:30, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Article does mention it under Death and Funeral. Glennconti (talk) 22:19, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * So it does, thanks. Do you know if the image at Arabic wiki is okay to copy here? Chesdovi (talk) 22:42, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It is copyrighted to AFP. Commons had it but deleted it. Glennconti (talk) 00:10, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

See Also "section"
The reason I added Death of Neda Agha-Soltan and Death of Khaled Mohamed Saeed to the section to page is because both death have caused a huge protests in the wider-MiddleEast in the last 3yrs. -- The Egyptian Liberal (talk) 10:03, 9 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I personally don't think they should be added, considering See Also sections are supposed to be thin. However, based on WP:ALSO, if they are to be included, it may be helpful to annotate why beside each. Lara  21:39, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

IP edits
This one in particular, are a concern. The web address in the edit summary results in a no access error for me, but it's altered both his name and added in additional information into a sourced sentence. Information that it likely not in the source. We need sources for these changes. Lara 21:45, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Full name
Where's the source for his full name? Because there's a slow edit war going on over it and I don't recall a full name in any of the sources I read, nor does any other language WP have that version of his name. Most have just Mohamed Bouazizi or some version thereof. Lara 22:06, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

The full name was added from an ID tag shown as part of a you tube video. Some one translated the arabic and that's how the info got here. See above Name. Lara I think you deleted the reference to the video because it was a copyright vio or for some other reason. French language WP is using the name Tarek in addition. I don't know where they got that from. Glennconti (talk) 18:37, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I removed it because YouTube took down the video. If you click the link, it leads to "This video is no longer available because the YouTube account associated with this video has been terminated due to multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement." I don't get where this current name is from. I can't find any reliable sources for the "el-/Ben" version. The "al-/ibn" version gets far more hits on Google, but the only possibly reliable sources (the vast majority are WP mirrors) are from the same author, where a single article was published in multiple publications. Her use is "Tarek al-Tayyib Muhammad ibn Bouazizi". Lara  19:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Can we come to some sort of consensus on this? The Arabic WP just has Mohamed Bouazizi. I can't find sources for the name we currently have. I think it would be appropriate to just trim it to the name that is being used in all the sources (and the title of the article) until such a time that a solid source gives a full name. Lara  00:30, 14 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Here's what I can find.


 * "Now Algerian has taken to the streets following Tunisia and Egypt" - AllVoices
 * "Inspired by Tunisia and Egypt now Algerians take to the streets" - Digital Journal


 * Do either of those count as reliable? Silver  seren C 00:34, 14 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't know about Allvoices. It looks like a legit source. The second is sort of like WikiNews. It's just online contributors. I personally would like to see multiple sources because there is always the possibility that it was picked up from us. For example, considering how closely worded the paragraphs in the second source are to what I wrote in the lead of this article, I'm inclined to think that author wrote based off of this article. Without some sort of widespread use, I'm concerned about using a longer name. Lara  03:17, 14 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Here is a reference I got from the French language article. It says his real name is Tarek Bouazizi. The article speaks about the hospital representative at Ben Arous reporting that he has died. The name used is Tarek El Bouazizi. Glennconti (talk) 14:51, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Rename
Speaking of the name, this article was unilaterally moved to this "Death of" title without any prior discussion, despite the edit summary pointing here. The user who carried out the rename, User:Farhikht‎‎, points to Death of Neda Agha-Soltan as the example we should follow for the "rewrite" he suggests in another edit summary. That rename was based on this archived discussion from 2009 wherein J Milburn (in my opinion) misinterpreted WP:1EVENT (or perhaps it was worded differently at the time). It currently reads "In some cases [...] a person famous for only one event may be more widely known than the event itself [...]. In such cases, the article about the event may be most appropriately named for the person involved." Point being, this article is about a person. It puts greater focus on his death and the actions that led up to it and resulted from it because that is what made him notable, but it is still a biography. As such, I believe the title should be his name, as it was originally titled. I don't know of any guidelines that support the current name or the proposed format and layout changes used in the Neda Agha-Soltan article. Lara 19:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Agree. In addition, the causes and the results of his actions are already covered by other articles. And those articles themselves can not be merged into this one or vice versa as their causes, effects, etc. in turn are larger than this single incident. You can not discuss Bouazizi's background leading up to why he committed self-immolation in the articles on Algerian protests in detail. It can only be done in a biographical article.


 * I support moving it back to an article under his name. -- Obsidi ♠ n Soul  19:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I support moving it back to Mohamed Bouazizi. I thought the self-immolation was more important then the death anyway. That is when the protests started after he burned himself, not after he died. Therefore I think Death of Mohamed Bouazizi is not appropriate. Glennconti (talk) 22:07, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm moving it back now. Lara  00:12, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Counter-stories
This article gives Faida Hamdi's brother's side of the story. May be appropriate to work some of this in. Would be good to find additional sources, though, about witnesses and such. Lara 05:59, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I am trying to get Muhammad Bouazizi named Time Magazine's 'Person of the Year' 2011. There is a blog at aviewfromhamcommon.blogspot.com ( how you can help is on the home page on the right) and a petition ( for which there is a link at the blog). I have tried to add these to the main page but they have been removed until I can get an accreditation from a major media publication - so please publicise the site and the camapign and direct people to the blog and the petition. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.98.94 (talk) 21:11, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

A Line That Needs Changing
This sentence is completely subjective. "Her gender made his humiliation worse due to mores in the Arab world." There were three sources. I removed 2, one from the Independent and the other from the Time, because they were not talking about the Arab World (they were however stating that Bouazizi was humiliated). The one that is left is from a blogger and we're quoting him here as if his words are facts. I think this sentence should be removed, re-written or supported with actual relevant sources. I lean towards the first option. What do others think? 24.211.217.22 (talk) 22:59, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I restored the independent link, as his sister clearly stated that her gender mattered. I think her words were "especially a female" when speaking about the humiliation. And I don't think it's fair to refer to the author of the other source as a blogger. He's a Tunisian journalist and university lecturer. I think he's qualified to write on such matters. Lara  02:55, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Lara, the Independent article does say Bouazizi felt more humiliated because his "attacker" was a female. However, I can't find where it says that this is widespread in the Arab world. The source is given for this specific sentence "Her gender made his humiliation worse due to mores in the Arab world." Does the Independent article state this as a fact? No. Regarding Habib Toumi, I agree. It is unfair to refer to him as a blogger and actually that article was originally published in the Gulfnews. However, that does not mean that part of his article is not subjective. That is how it is to me and we are providing it here as a fact. We can re-write it in a better way I guess. That being said, I am sure there are other sources that will carry an argument similar to Habib Toumi's. I think they are all subjective. Lanov (talk) 05:44, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Then let's rewrite it. The line can't come out completely because we need some explanation as to why we're including her gender. Otherwise, as was the problem last week, people will just keep removing "female". Considering every single source mentions her gender, it's clearly an important point. We can say that, "according to his family, her gender made the humiliation worse." Something like that. Lara  13:33, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It is a shame that people are projecting on to Bouazizi an attitude that they wished he had namely egalitarianism as regards to gender. This was obviously not the case as stated in sources. The fact that the common man as Bouazizi was in Arab world has not embraced gender equality should not be sanitized by Wikipedia. I am in opposition to changing the line. Glennconti (talk) 18:55, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I changed it a day or so ago during my tweaking and expanding. I, personally, don't have a preference on wording. It's currently the "according to his family" line and sourced to his sister, iirc. Lara  20:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * How about?: "Her gender made his humiliation worse according to his family and others; the situation being considered a highly or especially humiliating one in the Arab world." I think what we had before was better but this follows almost verbatim to the two sources. I think the second part about the Arab world needs the light of day; it strongly speaks to motive. Glennconti (talk) 21:19, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
 * This just in on the AP. 62% of Egyptian men admit to being sexual harassers. Wonder how they would feel if they were slapped in public by a woman? Glennconti (talk) 22:05, 8 March 2011 (UTC)