Talk:Mohamed Jawad

disputed picture
Replaced transcluded image with inline image - npov tag as per dispute on Template talk:Combatant Status Review Tribunal trailer image and caption. Geo Swan 08:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

He sounds Pakistani, not Afghan. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 00:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)



poorly advised "defaultsort"
Someone placed a "defaultsort" on this article which I believe was poorly advised.

I believe it was a mistake because Pashtun speakers, like this individual, follow the Arabic style, where the father's first name becomes the last name of his sons. So every generation has a different last name from the generation before it. I believe this makes it poorly advised to try to shoehorn their names into the English style of assuming everyone has a surnames that is inherited father to son. It is best to sort them on their first name.

In addition, different official US documents list this particular individual under three different names. They don't know which is his real name. Which I believe makes it a mistake to arbitrarily pick one of his many names and designate that his surname.

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 00:31, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

to do
I just saw a picture of Mohammed Jawad's relatives greeting him and hugging him. I was struck by how he was taller than all his relatives, towering over some of them. My guess would be that he was about six feet tall.

He seems much taller than the five foot four he was measured at when he arrived at Guantanamo.

So, one thing to do now, is look for WP:RS that report his current height. If he was really seventeen when captured it would highly remarkable, a medical anomaly, for him to grow a further six to eight inches. Geo Swan (talk) 17:47, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Holding area for moving text
Jawad had been among those who announced they would boycott the tribunals, but attended the beginning of his trial in May 2008. Mnnlaxer (talk) 21:36, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Following three paragraphs placed here at the same time. They are clearly not up to Wikipedia standards, although I will find the report referenced in the last citation. Mnnlaxer (talk) 23:09, 11 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Important information regarding determining his actual age at time of imprisonment can be further elucidated here. Jawad has had many Army prosecutors who resigned or asked for re-assignments from Guantanimo due to the corrupt actions allowed/enacted by leaders (Gen. Thomas Hartmann currently under investigation but has already been asked to resign). One prosecutor, among many, was Lt. COL Darrel Vandeveld (ret. Army Reserve), stated that Jawad's initial physical exam upon arrival in 2002 showed he was 5'4" (i.e., 64 inches) and 120 lbs. Also, the prosecution stated there was evidence stating his initial screening Bone Scan (i.e., 'xray') portrayed a 'bone age' for that of a juvenile (i.e., this does NOT mean his bones were small, this means his epiphiseal plates were not closed).


 * More proof to substantiate his actual age could be gained from his medical record, if in fact a full history/physical exam was performed as it should have been upon arrival to the prison. If this full exam was complete quality work, other signs of physical maturity should have been noted. Further, any new physical exams which should have been done in subsequent years should have showed changing signs of pubertal stages as well. The initial physical exam which SHOULD have noted other puberty signs (shown on link immediately following) would help establish Jawad's age +/- a year. Since the military's medical record system is electronic, it is impossible - within the law-abiding, non-computer-hacking, medical community - to delete/change prior records. So, despite any efforts/desires to alter it, the medical proof (radiology pictures and report) cannot be tampered with, at least not without providing a record of who did the tampering and when. In general, also, a male with his height and weight are more indicative of an average age range of the 9 - 15 yo young human male, according to Tanner Stages of Human Growth (puberty).


 * Thus, even with this scant two pieces of data, one can't exactly state what age Jawad was upon arrival to Guantanamo. However, this data does overwhelmingly show that Jawad was not anywhere near 18yo, but was much younger. Considering just these pieces of data presented here and in the media, any physician would determine that this boy was surely not 18yo upon arrival to Guantanamo, but rather closer to the 12-14yo age range. This shows that not only was a child imprisoned and severely tortured for years, but also that this fact was ignored and then attempted to be 'covered-up'. If a scientific, medical radiology study states a human being is a juvenile, no amount of conjecture can cover this up - as was sadly attempted apparently by the aforementioned Guantanamo Spokesperson, Gordon.

This blockquote is from the subject of the article and states his opinion on matters that are disputed. This violates WP:NPOV. --Mnnlaxer (talk) 19:39, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Paragraphs at the end of Military commission section can be used later. --Mnnlaxer (talk) 21:20, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * On August 4, 2009 Daphne Eviatar, writing in the Washington Independent, reported that Jawad's Defense team claimed the new witnesses statements the Department of Justice claimed to have were given cash and gifts in return for their witness statements.


 * She quoted from emails from Major Eric Montalvo, who had "spoken with all the government's star witnesses", and listed the reasons for his concerns. She quoted from Frakt who said the witnesses were unembarrassed about describing receiving cash and gifts in return for their testimony. Frakt described the witnesses inviting the Defense attorneys to outbid the Prosecution for favorable testimony.


 * On August 24, 2009, Carol Rosenberg, writing in the Miami Herald wrote about Jawad's case that: "His case gained prominence when the Pentagon's legal advisor for military commissions, Air Force Brig. General Thomas Hartmann, found his file among those being considered for war crimes prosecution and propelled it to the top of the pile, in part because there were victims who could testify -- former, wounded reserve soldiers back in California."

New reports from Kabul on the attack Jawad is accused of
I've added three contemporaneous news reports from Kabul in the External links section. And one extensive article from Kabul in January 2003, one month after the attacks. I'd like to get input on how to use these articles within the text. While I don't doubt the reporters are reliable, the information they were given might not be. Any thoughts? --Mnnlaxer (talk) 20:03, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Those are good references. As you noted, they pre-date the reports that he was significantly younger than the DoD claimed.  Initial press reports repeated the DoD's assertion that he was 17 years old.  Frankly I was skeptical of this claim, when I read the 2004 transcript from his CSR Tribunal -- he didn't seem mature enough to be an adult.


 * However, there wasn't any policy compliant path to challenging the DoD's assertions of his age, so long as there were no reliable sources that challenged his age. I believe that the DoD has never officially acknowledged that he wasn't 17, when captured.


 * DoD spokesmen have claimed that its estimates of ages were based on bone scans. But these early reports suggest this wasn't the case with Mohammed Jawad, as they seem to have been reporting he was 17 long before they could have conducted this bone scan.


 * There was another contributor, who is not currently active on the project, who routinely challenged coverage of any information from the limited health records the DoD released. For most captives the DoD published the captives' height and weight.  My recollection is that those records said Mohammed Jawad was five foot four.  It would be original research to point out that video of Jawad meeting his relatives, after his repatriation, showed he towered over his relatives.  It would be original research to suggest this showed he hadn't finished going through his puberty growth spurt, prior to his capture.


 * Anyhow, I believe there are plenty of references that support that Jawad's family and lawyers claim he was only twelve, when captured.


 * Similarly, the claims published shortly after his captured can be countered by the conclusions of the military judge and the habease judge, who agreed with his lawyers that his confessions to the Afghan authorities were unreliable, because they abused him and threatened his family.


 * The defense had great difficulty getting access to the evidence that was under the prosecution's control. After Vandeveld resigned from the Prosecution the prosecution finally provided the defense with sworn affadavits from witnessess from Afghanistan -- Afghan security officials, and Afghan bystanders.  Susan Crawford, the Convening Authority, declined to provide funds for the defense to travel to Afghanistan to conduct their own interviews with these witnesses.  So, one of the military defense counsel took some leave, and traveled to Afghanistan at his own expense to interview those witnesses.  He found that they either couldn't be found, or they saw his arrival as an opportunity to lead a bidding war, and offered to change their testimony,  and testify to the complete opposite of what was in their previously sworn statement, if only the defense would outbid those who took the previous statements.


 * One factor not confirmed by any RS I am aware of is that Jawad testified that the men who lead him to the attack, as some kind of mule, had intoxicated him -- and he was probably still drugged when he underwent his brief, brutal Afghan interrogation. Geo Swan (talk) 15:31, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * In general, I'm fine with publishing all claims from different groups/people on Jawad's age. You're right that DoD never has acknowledged Jawad was less than 17 when captured. The furthest I remember DoD going is listing his age as 17 many months after his arrival at Gitmo in early 2003, but not long enough to make him 16 in December 2002.


 * I agree that his 2009 or current height will be hard to come by and doesn't offer definitive proof either. Just to be clear, his family claims he was 12, I think his last military lawyer said between 12-15. I don't think it will ever be possible to state he was 12 with any certainty, and even 15 at capture will be hard. Other more impartial sources have gravitated to 16 or 17 at the time of his capture. And in terms of international law, 17 is still a child.


 * Do you have a source for the defense traveling to Afghanistan? --Mnnlaxer (talk) 19:47, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

CSRT text
The memo was released in March 2005, although it redacted his place of birth. The subsequent September 2007 release of the memo did not redact it.

Jawad expressed confusion about the purpose of the Tribunal. When his Tribunal's President asked him if he understood the Tribunal procedure he responded that it was supposed to determine if he was a criminal. His Tribunal's President tried to explain that the Tribunal was not concerned with whether he was a criminal, but rather was supposed to determine whether he was an "enemy combatant". Nevertheless, Jawad continued the tribunal explaining that he was not a criminal.

Jawad described being approached by a man at the mosque who invited him to take a job clearing mines. Jawad told his Tribunal that he told the man he wanted his mother's permission before he took the job. The man told him to tell his family he had accepted a job in Afghanistan, but not to worry them by telling them he was going to be clearing mines. Various family members told him he was too young to take a job. His mother had left to visit relatives, so he left for Afghanistan without her permission. Jawad testified that when he arrived in Afghanistan he was given a Hezb-e-Islami ID card. He testified that he was made to take pills that left him sleepy and disoriented. He also testified: ''"The men gave me injections in the leg and I hallucinated about many things, like my nose coming off and giving my ear to people."

Jawad testified that he was taught how to throw grenades, that a mine went off near him, but he wasn't injured.

According to Jawad that staff at the camp where he was trained were known by numbers, not names.

Jawad told his Tribunal that the staff members gave him orange gum, chocolate candy, and a tablet that made him go out of his mind.

Jawad's Personal Representative tried to repeat to his Tribunal the account he recorded of Jawad, "number thirty-nine", "number forty-two" another trainee named Nadir and himself traveling to Khowst. Jawad's Personal Representative's account included Jawad being given some bombs. Then "something happened", everyone was running. Then he got arrested, taken to Bagram, and finally to Guantanamo.

While the Personal Representative tried to repeat the account he recorded Jawad kept interrupting him with corrections.

Jawad said he didn't know whether Nadir, "number 38" and "number 42" were arrested at the same time he was. He was told they were. He was told they weren't. And he was told they were killed.

Jawad's transcript does not record the Tribunal members asking him any questions.

ARB round one text
At his first ARB, Jawad was accused of meeting a single individual at his shop in October 2002 who offered him money to kill Americans. Two months later it says that he was attending Qurey Mosque in Miran Shah and met four people who offered him 12,000 Rupees in exchange for helping to clear a minefield. It states that he trained with Hezb-I-Islami Gulbuddin for a day and a half in Khost, after being given given injections in his right leg and two pills. It says he was then trained to use "AK-47s, rocket launchers, machine guns, and hand grenades". It said that Jawad had previously stated that although he was not originally supposed to be the one to throw the grenade, it had been handed to him at the last second and he thus threw it.

It also cited Jawad's interrogation by the Afghan police, where he allegedly put his thumbprint and signature to a confession that said he had trained in the caves of Afghanistan, had told his associates that he was willing to kill people, had agreed to kill Americans in exchange for extra money, and that he was proud to have done it.

Given the opportunity for a spoken statement, Jawad said that he was confused by the accusation that he met a recruiter at his shop, since he never owned a shop. He agreed that he had attended the Qurey Mosque, but said he had never attended a "Jihadi Madrassa" or any other religious school. He also stated that the militants who recruited him had no connection to Hezb-I-Islami, and he had never received any training on how to throw grenades. He also said that he had specifically told his interrogators that he "was the person who did not throw the grenade.", and that the only time he had said otherwise was under torture by the Afghan police who threatened to kill him if didn't confess.

This marked the first time that his Assisting Military Officer heard anything about alleged abuse, and prompted the Presiding Officer to ask whether the new claim triggered mandatory responses. Jawad was questioned about the interrogation and confession, and confirmed that he had been tortured by Afghans, not American forces. He also said that he couldn't have put his signature on the confession since he lacked a signature.

Jawad reiterated his claim that he was in the market with his associates, but that he had not been the one to throw the grenade. He said he didn't know the attacker personally, but would recognise his face if he saw him again. He was interrupted while explaining how he had been recruited, to be told that the panel had already heard that part of the story from him, and he subsequently refused to continue his oral statement.

Jawad's Assisting Military Officer met with him on December 6, 2005 for 45 minutes for a pre-hearing interview. His Assisting Military Officer reported that he was "very cordial, attentive, and was well informed about the ARB's purpose and procedures.