Talk:Mohammed Hussein Al Amoudi

MERGE
Merge - This is the same person and an easy decision to merge. Lcnj 05:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. --Ezeu 03:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Mohammed H. Al Amoudi is from Ethiopia. He love his country very much, and he invest in different projects in Ethiopia. I really do not understand why people question with his nationality because the most important thing is what he is doing for Ethiopia. "What do you do for your contry?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by METEBABER (talk • contribs) 09:48, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Not Ethiopian !
everybody knows that Al Amoudi Family are Saudis (nowadays) from a Yemeni race. Ammar 02:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * His father was Yemeni, his mother Ethiopian. He lives in Saudi and is a citizen there. The article does not say he is Ethiopian, but that he was born in Ethiopia. There is no such thing as a Yemeni race. --Ezeu 02:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * His mother lived in Ethiopia but she is Arab. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spaomark (talk • contribs) 04:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC).
 * Incorrect. There are no sources saying that. I believe she was Oromo, but I'm not certain. He might actually be full Ethiopian (he looks like any other Ethiopian), as many articles simply refer to him as being Ethiopian-born; only the ethiosports link refers to a Yemeni father. &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 20:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Wrong. He is described as Arab in the Arab press all the time. He looks like a typical dark skinned Arab.  Most members of the Saudi royal family are darker than he is.  His mother is from a very Arab region of Ethiopia and his mother's family is from the Arab world and his mother looks very Arab. His father is Yemeni.  Minorcorrections
 * You have throughout this whole disagreement provided zero sources. You continue to claim that the Arab press describes him as Arab, yet you have not given any examples. Most dark-skinned Arabs look like Ethiopians, btw, but regardless of his appearance (any Ethiopian would tell you that he looks Ethiopian, for what it's worth, but that matters not), his mother is from Wello. I don't know what you mean by "Arab region of Ethiopia," as there are none. Wello/Wollo is primarily inhabited by predominantly Muslim Amharic speakers ("Amharas") and Oromos, as well as by some Afars in the East, but you will find no Arabs. The only place you'll find Arabs in the Horn of Africa are some coastal merchant cities like Massawa and Zeila. I can believe his father is Yemeni (since we have a source saying that), though it's not certain (other sources simply call him Ethiopian - like the Nazret one I provided calling him the richest black in the world), but his mother cannot be called Arab without a reliable source. &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 21:19, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * i agree with you my friend :) there is hundreds of thousands of black arabs across the world, and specially in southern Saudi Arabia and Yemen , which are the origine of the Al-Amoudi family i've been talking about :)Ammar 21:27, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * This is a myth. The amount of black blood in the Arab world is actually surprisingly small. The amount of Arab blood in Ethiopia on the other hand is surprisingly large especially in certain regions. Minorcorrections
 * Again you provide no sources. E3b is common throughout Western Asia and even Europe, which has its origins in Ethiopia or elsewhere in the Horn of Africa region. Furthermore, maternal black lineages are very common in the Arab world as well (see Semino et al 2004 and Kivisild et al 2004). There is little Arab blood on the other hand. The only lineage external to the region found in Ethiopia is Haplogroup J, most of which dates to the Neolithic, with very few lineages bearing the motif associated with Arab expansion (Semino et al 2004). You have no evidence for your far-fetched views. &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 21:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * When you combine maternal and paternal DNA, Ethiopia is 40% Arab. The Arab world is only 5% sub-Saharan African Minorcorrections
 * I addressed your ludicrous "40% Arab" claim below. Arabs have, on average, much more than 5% admixture from sub-Saharan Africa, however. North Africans (excepting Egyptians) carry (Berbers and Arabs) the E3b Haplotype at about 70-80% (from Ethiopia/Horn of Africa; Kabyles only have about 60% with about 30% European Y chromosome DNA, however), and have varying levels of West African:European maternal DNA depending on the group studied (coastal groups have upwards of 50% European maternal DNA, while groups like the Haratin have overwhelmingly native West African Maternal DNA). In the East (Western Asia), Arab groups have 20-33% E3b, high levels of J (~50%), but also high levels of sub-Saharan maternal admixture (in Yemen over 30% - see Kivisild et al 2004 again). &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 23:07, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The sources you cite are worse than the National Enquirer. Wello has a huge Arab population. Many are Arab and don't even know it. Forbes clearly states he is Saudi Arabian.  Let's just stick with straight facts and keep away from racial controversy.   Please read the rules. Minorcorrections
 * This means you planning to keep the article with these unsourced info ?Ammar 21:37, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Evidence (this response is to Minorcorrections)? Why is Nazret.com, not a blog, but an Ethiopian News site worse than the National Enquirer? It is a reliable source. What makes it worse than your (yet-to-be-cited) Arab newspapers? Forbes states that he's Saudi Arabian because he is Saudi Arabian - he is a citizen of Saudi Arabia and holds a Saudi Arabian passport. That has nothing to do with his origin, however. I'm not considering racial issues right now, just the fact that he is at least 1/2 Ethiopian. I am very familiar with the rules (I have contributed to Wikipedia far longer than you) and I know that you are violating them by replacing cited information with uncited information (actually you have yet to remove the citation, you just change the data associated with the source). Also, watch out for violating WP:3RR. &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 21:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yom you are violating wikipedia by putting unrelaible sources in the biography of a living person to make wildly controversial claims. You are tryiong to imply that this man is not a genuine Arab because he has dark skin.  That is completely unacceptable.  Race is controversial enough in regular articles but in biography articles such controversial nonsense will not be tolerated.  Your souces are not reliable at all. Please keep them far away from the biography of any living person. Even the Enquirer is about 15 levels above your sources Minorcorrections

there are some rumors about him in Ethiopia, but one thing is for sure in Addis he looks as Ethiopian as the next Ethiopian, that is for sure, no debate. Ill leave out the other rumors. By most international definitions he is an African, if he was in America he would be called African American. IN the UK he would be called African. It doesnt matter what Forbes said, okay it matters, but keep it in context, Forbes are not experts on race or Ethiopia. Remember all the Western Media reported Sudan Arabs were Arabs? Well they arent Arabs, they are African, so back to the point of who is calling who what. We cannot say he is Arab because Forbes said so. The politics of being An Arab and being an African (esp today) is the real issue. Many like to say he is Arab because they hate to show Africans as a success.--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 21:39, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * He was listed as one of the 50 richest Arabs. [ ]  He is considered Arab. It's totally obvious that he's totally Arab.  Some Arabs have dark skin. If he were American only the truly ignorant would regard him as African-American and I'm sure Al-Amoudi would get a good belly laugh out of that. The educated class would regard him as Arab-American.  The. U.S. press refers to him as Arab Minorcorrections
 * Your source is a thread post in a forum about skyscrapers and you are criticizing my legitimate news sources? It doesn't matter that you think he's totally Arab; of course Arabs have dark skin, but that doesn't mean that all dark-skinned Africans who have aquiline features are Arab. In case you didn't know, Al Amoudi lives within the Ethiopian community in Northern Virginia/DC/Southern Maryland (Greater DC area) in the U.S. and is very closely associated with it (he often finances and attends Ethiopian weddings), so I doubt he would laugh about being African American (at least not in the sense of Ethiopian-American). What you think the educated class would regard him as is also irrelevant. What is your source regarding the U.S. press referring to him as an Arab (and does it make mention of his ancestry or simply call him Arab because of his citizenship?)? &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 21:51, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yom it's very typical of Arabs and Ethiopians to have close ties. These are not mutually exclusive categories. I am not going to cite sources because this article is about the man's accomplishmenst not his race.  But I will not tolerate you citing unreliable blogs that make controversial racial assertions. Let's leave race out of it. Minorcorrections
 * There are certainly historical relations, but "Arab" and "Ethiopian" are generally (though of course not always) exclusive categories. One can be Arab and a citizen of Ethiopia, for instance, but there are few such examples. If you are not going to cite sources, then you might as well give up on Wikipedia altogether, as Wikipedia is based on reliable sources. I haven't said anything about his race on the main article page, since (if he is indeed 1/2 Yemeni) that is a subjective determination, but his ancestry should be included. I have yet to cite one blog. I cited an Ethiopian News website and an Ethiopian sports News (and other sports info) website, both of which are reliable. &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 22:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * These are not considered reliable sources, certainly not reliable enough to make the libelous claim that a proud Arab man is not genuinly Arab. His mother lived in Ethiopia but her family originated in the Arab world. His father is hard core Arab. He has cultural connections to Ethiopia because his mother lived there, but his ancestry is Arab. I wont bother citing sources because I don't want this article to focus on race. Minorcorrections

To be Arab doesnt mean someone isnt "black" or African. Please look up Arab i think that should finish the debate. Arab isnt a race, it is like saying he is American. Now we know Americans come in all colors. How can he be 100% Arab if his mother is Ethiopian. In America Mrs Berry has a white mother, Lenny Kravitz has a white mother all are called African-Americans. Arab and African have so much racial similar features that you could never see him in Ethiopia in a million years and know he was 100% Ethiopian, impossible, he is actually darker than many Ethiopian, who are 100% take a look at the King of Kings( Selassie)--is he Arab?--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 21:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Arab means West Asian ancestry, which Al Amoudi clearly is Minorcorrections
 * Note for "Yom", about the Category Jeddah , yes he live in Jeddah , he own 4 Hotels and 1 Resort here , he is very famous Saudi business man , his full name is Mohammed Aboud Al-Amoudi , and this photoghraph on the Article is his personal picture for sure :) Ammar 22:03, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Ammar. I figured that was the case, but the article didn't refer to it at all. @MC: "Arab" and "West Asian" are distinct. There are multiple populations from Western Asia (Turks, Kurds, Persians, Arabs, Yemeni and Omani South Semitic-speaking "Arabs," etc.). &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 22:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * then at least i'd correct his father name, the source about his father immegration needs a source it self because its an amatuer webpage Ammar 22:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Arab isnt a race
If he was a mass rapist his race would be very relevant, I am sick of this trend where succesful Africans (Black people) get written as "something else". He is Arab because he is rich, Let him get caught in America with a knife in his hand, he is 100% Black, let him say something out against America, he would become Arab again. This man is an Ethiopian and a citizen of Saudi Arabia. --HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 22:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Go and look at the definition of Arab and quote it here.--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 22:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah and Arabs are sick of successful Arabs being tagged as something else. It reminds of of the claims that Cleopatra was black Minorcorrections

If Minorcorrection continues to push A POV it will not be tolerated, there is a disucssion going on do not revert my work.--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 22:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * its not racism against blacks, its the fact informations , if u sure he is Ethopian , can you please translate the word "Al-Amoudi" from Ethiopian language? :) if you can't i still can translate it from Arabic language which means he is Arab :) , just never think its a racism or something like that my friend :) Ammar 22:10, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Just because he has an Arabic name doesn't mean he's an Arab, though. I have a friend (who is Ethiopian) named Hassen (his father's name is also in Arabic), but that doesn't make him an Arab any more than a Catholic Filipino named José is a Hebrew (Israeli). &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 22:19, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

He lives in Saudi Arabi so he's Saudi Arabian period. His race is not relevant to the article and questioning whether he's a genuine Arab is libelous. Minorcorrections

Let me educate you, Ethiopian Muslims have names like that, what does it have to do with Ethiopian language? Please dont think we here are that silly. How many Ethiopians have these names? 40% of the country is Muslim. Ethiopia and Arabia have a long relationship, many Arabic words are from Ge'ez, Islam was legal in Ethiopia before it was legal in Arabia.His race is obviously important, if you disagree then leave it alone--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 22:14, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

And 40% of Ethiopians are Arab genetically Minorcorrections
 * Hahaha, any evidence (reliable sources, not thread posts in forums about skyscrapers)? I didn't think so (see Semino et al 2004 and Kivisild et al 2004 for Ethiopian and Arab DNA). &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 22:19, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * On the basis of historical, linguistic, and genetic data, it has been suggested that the Ethiopian population has been strongly affected by Caucasoid migrations since Neolithic times (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, p. 174). On the basis of autosomal polymorphic loci, it has been estimated that 60% of the Ethiopian gene pool has an African origin, whereas 40% is of Caucasoid derivation (Guglielmino et al. 1987; Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, p. 174). Minorcorrections


 * I knew you would use that source. Firstly, Caucasoid != Arab; secondly, that source is outdated and incorrect. Maternally, Ethiopian genes are entirely of local origin. The only haplogroup not decided was M1, but it has been determined that it is not of Indian M* origin (Chang Sun et al 2006) and indigenous origin is what's most likely. Regarding paternal DNA, most Ethiopians carry the haplotype E3b (of local origin) - about 50% among Semitic speakers and 70-80% among Cushitic speakers. Ancient haplotypes like A are another 15% (other haplotypes are less than 5% I believe) and J can be found in Semitic speakers at about 33%. J probably originated in the Levant, but was spread to Ethiopia during the Neolithic by the Natufians, a group closely related to Africans (the closest group craniofacially, at least, are Niger-Congo speakers). Very few of the J haplotypes in Ethiopia were introduced more recently by Arabs (those bearing the YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 motif) - see Semino et al 2004 for that. &mdash;  ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia
 * No my source is not outdated. It was found by 2 independent sources.  You are just taking bits and pices of various studies which you've misunderstood and interpreting them your own way. We know from linguistic that Ethiopians have enomrous caucasoid admixture, and linguistic evidence parallels genetic interactions.  Minorcorrections

ISlamic names has nothing to do with being Arab. for heavens sake is the cricketer Khan a member of the khans of the MOnguls?--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 22:17, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

but Al-Amoudi is just a nick name, not an islamist name !! Ammar 22:21, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

RIGHT, can someone add his name in Arabia and his name in Amharic if appropriate?--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 22:34, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

im just trying to insure you that he is NOT ethiopian, other wise you'll never find the meaning of Al-Amoudi in any ethiopian language dictionary :) Ammar 22:41, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

THANK U ዮም, Now maybe since it is written in Amharic they will understand.--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 23:18, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Lies exposed
Yom is exposed by his barefaced lies. He says that his studies say Ehtiopian maternal genes don't have Caucasoid admixture. Kivisild

''Maternal lineages of Semitic- (Amharic, Tigrinya, and Gurage) and Cushitic- (Oromo and Afar) speaking populations studied here reveal that their mtDNA pool is a nearly equal composite of sub-Saharan and western Eurasian lineages. This finding, consistent with classic genetic-marker studies (Cavalli-Sforza 1997) and previous mtDNA results, is also in agreement with a similarly high proportion of western Asian Y chromosomes in Ethiopians (Passarino et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2002), which supports the view (Richards et al. 2003) that the observed admixture between sub-Saharan African and, most probably, western Asian ancestors of the Ethiopian populations applies to their gene pool in general.''

What kind of deception is Yom operating under here? Since Yom has now been exposed for his lies, can we say Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.195.254.202 (talk • contribs).
 * Anon, you can disagree with another person without calling him a liar. Because you have accused Yom of being a liar (with the exact same childish language), consider this your last warning: if you call him a liar again, you may be blocked from editting Wikipedia. -- Llywrch 20:42, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Kivisild is working on the assumption that M1 is derived from Indian M*, which is no longer supported. See for example Chang Sun et al. 2006:
 * "A particular case in question is the origin of haplogroup M1, which is mainly found in Northeast Africa and the Near East (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999). Due to the fact that M1 bears variant nucleotides, for example, at site 16311 in common with haplogroup M4, at 16129 with M5, and at 16249 with haplogroup M34, it has been proposed that M1 might have some affinity with Indian M haplogroups (Roychoudhury et al. 2001). This inference, however, could not receive support from our complete sequencing information. Indeed, the reconstructed ancestral motifs of all Indian M haplogroups turned out to be devoid of those variations that characterized M1, i.e., 6446, 6680, 12403, and 14110 (Maca-Meyer et al. 2001; Herrnstadt et al. 2002). Therefore, those common mutations in the control region rather reflect random parallel mutations. There is no evidence whatsoever that M1 originated in India."
 * Please refrain from personal attacks. &mdash; ዮም  |  (Yom)  |  Talk  • contribs • Ethiopia 20:59, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

So you think you know better than the geneticits? Have you read the policy on Original Research lately? Better yet, let's see if this is only about M1 like you say. I am not gonna say anything. I will let people decide for themselves if this is a truth or a lie:

Both Ethiopians and Yemenis contain an almost-equal proportion of Eurasian-specific M and N and African-specific lineages and therefore cluster together in a multidimensional scaling plot between Near Eastern and sub-Saharan African populations [...] A high proportion of Ethiopian lineages, significantly more abundant in the northeast of that country, trace their western Eurasian origin in haplogroup N through assorted gene flow at different times and involving different source populations [...] both Ethiopian and Yemeni populations can be considered to be hybrids of gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa and the Near East.

'Lineages that belong to haplogroup N that cover virtually all mtDNA sequences in western Eurasia (Richards et al. 2000) show substantial frequencies both in the Yemeni (44%) and Ethiopian (31%) mtDNA pools. In this respect, Ethiopians differ explicitly from most other sub-Saharan African populations studied thus far.''' Within Ethiopia, the frequency of N lineages is significantly higher (P<.05) in samples that originate from its northern territory (48%), which was the center of the Aksum kingdom, than among other Ethiopians, mostly originating from the south-central part of the country (27%). At the same time, there was no significant difference in the proportions of haplogroup N between the Semitic and Cushitic linguistic groups in our sample—for example, between Amharas and Oromos. Haplogroup (preHV)1 is by far the most frequent (10.4%) subclade in the Ethiopian N cluster (fig. 2B). The majority of the Ethiopian (preHV)1 lineages match or derive from founder haplotypes common to Near Eastern, southern Caucasian, and North African populations (Krings et al. 1999; Metspalu et al. 1999; Richards et al. 2000; Kivisild et al. 2003b).''

im east african and im sick and tired of ethiopians trying to say alamoudi is ethiopian,alamoudi?do you get the surname,its a big hadramot arab family name how could you say he is of ethiopian origin,sometimes you ethiopian make me laugh. ok then which tribe is amoudi from in ethiopia?and if you say amhara or oromo then you making a fool out of your self.grow up al amoudi is helping ethiopians because he lived with ethiopians and was born there dont insult him by stealing his identity. there are arabs in east africa and i can tell you each family one by one they are known and alamoudi is one of them but can you find those family 100 years ago in east africa?no their ancestors didnt go to east africa then.GROW UP ETHIOPIANS GROW UP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaya7 (talk • contribs) 06:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

IDI AMIN
Idi would have been considered also an Arab and he was from Uganda. He was a citizen of Saudi Arabia, and if he had a billion dollars would have been called an Arab. Just like M Jackson is called an American. Bilal of Ethiopia was also called Arab because he lived there and spoke Arabic.--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 21:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

neither Idi Amin nor Bilal are arabs, but Amin fled to Jeddah - Saudi Arabia , and kept his nationality while living in saudi , same case with Bilal who lived with Meccans still considered Ethiopian in arabic history books , which means you are wrong mister Ammar 23:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

And Al Amoudi in Saudi Arabia would be called Habasha, if you dont believe me go to saudi, they might call him Arab but on the street he would be called Habasha meaning Ethiopian. YOu are using western perception to understand a more complex people.--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 23:30, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Al Amoudi is considered Arab because he's of Arab descent. It has nothing to do with what country he lives in. In fact Arabian Business lists him only as a citizen of Ethiopia but still considers him Arab because of his ancestry. I would never consider Idi Amin to be Arab. Minorcorrections

no one needs to know what you, a non-ethiopian thinks, Idi Amin is considered Arab in some cultures.--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 21:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Third party's opinion
As I'm not part of this debate, I'd like to remind all parties that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." This is a Wikipedia policy, see WP:V for more details. As of this writing the article cites no sources, so anyone reading it has no motivation to believe one word of it. It would seem much quicker, simpler and a lot less contentious to factually establish that the subject does indeed divide his time between Saudi Arabia and Ethiopia. That alone would make him an Arab-Ethiopian (or Ethio-Arab, or Saudi-Ethiopian, whatever you prefer - but maybe save that for later). The Saudi Arabian citizenship, about which we should cite a source, of course qualifies him as "Saudi Arabian" (if not "Arab"). If we can also verify that he was indeed born in Ethiopia and truly lived there until he was 19 or so, I'd say that the "Ethio-" prefix applies, and that's without even considering whether or not he's Habesha. Of course, his mother could be Filipino and his father Finnish, and the Arab-Ethiopian label could still apply, IMO. If it's important (and apparently it is) to prove or deny that he's Arab and/or Ethiopian (i.e., Habesha), then cite reliable sources to that effect. Also keep in mind that being one does not exclude being the other, if and when we see separate citations supporting either claim. But for right now the unreferenced tag is entirely appropriate. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:25, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe Ethiopian people have poor vision
This man is pure Habasha and a black man This man is according to someone is an Arab. An expert in Ethiopian people from Europe is telling Ethiopians and African who is and who isnt black. I guess Bob Marley is white--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 19:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

That man is not "pure" in a racial sense. Not by a country mile. As for Bob Marley being white, different cultures have different ways of assigning mixed race people, so saying Mohammed Al Amoudi is black is just as POV as saying he's not black. Besides it's a provocative statement to make about an Arab man, unsuited for a living person bio. Minorcorrections

I see being black is offensive, it is a POV to say he is Arab and what have just written testifies to your intent.--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 21:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It is the aim of some to make a blue sky seem red, Even by Ethiopian standards his hair is kinky and this person is saying he is Arab--Wow. In America he is a black man, in Ethiopia an Ethiopian in the UK black in Sudan black, in the Caribbean black. by the definition of black person he is Black. baka!--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 03:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)



POV agents in operation
Please be aware that someone is pushing a caucasoid definition of Arab on wikipedia see their contributions at Arab, where their content is disturbing constructive editing.--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 03:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Listen this person is a troll, i am a black person and i dont look like that photo--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 09:18, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Calling me a troll is a personal attack that violates wikipedia rules. Your the one who started posting photos. You're the one creating racial controversy. You're the one adding controversial unsourced statements to a living person bio. Minorcorrections

Please do not make accusations, i have seen your pattern on Arab, I didnt add anything about him being black, i didnt add any racial controversy, i was ask to come here because of your activities, so lets be clear. I dont know what world you live in where that image you posted is the only type of black person, so if you need to see, i have posted Selassie who is a black man to clear up the confusion, you posted an African leader from one part of Africa and i posted a black woman from America, maybe the idea of diversity within the African race is escaping you.--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 09:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The only reason that woman is considered black is because you have to be almost 100% white to be considered white. But you don't have to be 100% Arab to be considered Arab. Read up on hyperdescent. Also read up on Patrilineality, the system of assigning a person's race based on the race of his father. This is very common in the Arab world. Al Amoudi has an Arab father and a part Arab mother. That makes him Arab by basic logic, and we have a reliable source calling him the world's 8th richest Arab. Everything in a living person's bio must be well sourced, especially controversial statements. Have a good night. Minorcorrections

that woman doesnt have a white mother or father, neither a white granny or grandaddy. THat is an Arab definition, by the African definition he is black, y r u having problems with this? There more Africans than Arabs, His mother is not part Arab, his mother is Ethiopian, look at his color and hair texture. it is only controversial to you, all editors here have agreed on its inclusion. I am only reverting you, i did not make the claim. In Ethiopia this man is know as an Ethiopian baka!--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 10:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

When you say his mother is not part Arab she's Ethiopian you expose how little you know about Ethiopian history. Today's Ethiopians can trace nearly half their ancestry to Arabs. So an Ethiopian mother and an Arab father equals Arab especially since Patrilineality is big in the Arab world. But you don't have to agree with me. We have a reliable source calling him the world's 8th richest Arab. Everything in a living person's bio must be well sourced, especially controversial statements. Minorcorrections


 * I'm donning Admin Hat to advise both of you to moderate your language and emotions as you discuss this issue. This discussion has descended into a "He's X" -- "No, he's Y" exchange, with neither of you taking the time to provide sources for your statements. Meanwhile, your edits to the article are trending towards one -- or both of you -- violating the WP:3RR rule over Al-Moudi's ethnicity. The world will not come to an end if the sentence you two are arguing about is included -- or omitted. So I suggest both of you take a break from editting this article, either to find verifiable sources to support your positions -- or to work on some entirely unrelated articles. -- llywrch 17:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree the arguing is pointless. But people are not allowed to add controversial statements (like calling a mixed race person black) to a living person bio unless they have a damn good source.  Under no circumstances can unsourced or poorly sourced statements of a controversial nature be added to a living person bio and this rule is so important that wikipedia allows us to violate the 3 revert rule to enforce it. Minorcorrections


 * I'll admit that you have a point, but when you state it as passionately as you have been, the other party in the discussion tends to react to your emotion -- not to your reasoning. As a result, that party may feel that there are only two available responses: submit -- or fight. Thus the discussion escalates & becomes a tedious exchange of "He's X" -- "No, he's Y". My only intent by intervening is to get this back to an exchange of views & reach a consensus on this article, and as long as one party thinks he might lose here, he won't agree to the consensus. So do you want to work towards a consensus -- or a victory? -- llywrch 20:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 00:03, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

SCAM WARNING
I think there should be warning about SCAM mailing from thieves signing themself "Mrs. Zainab Mohammed Sani,ex-wife to Sheikh Mohammad Al Amoudi." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.142.122.111 (talk) 19:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I did find a link for such an email, which directs readers to this article ("If you want to know more about my ex-husband Mohammad Al Amoudi visit this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Al_Amoudi"). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Mohammed-Al-Amoudi140.jpg
Image:Mohammed-Al-Amoudi140.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Conflict of interest
I've tagged this article with coi as it has been extensively edited by who I assume is linked to this PR firm. Whilst all the content is sourced, I'm not entirely sure that it is suitably neutral and in particular finding this on the company's website set alarm bells ringing:

"A prominent African-based business figure was wrongly and maliciously targeted by a political warfare operation seeking to implicate him in the 9/11 attack. Working closely with his lawyers and other advisers, TPPR maintained a counter-intelligence operation to establish the pattern of attacks, has advised on responses and context and dealt with pre-litigation media contacts throughout Europe."

The current section discussing this is based heavily on primary sources which are not suitable. If mainstream media reports exist discussing these accusations then they should be referenced in the article.

The only other area I've looked at is regarding Saudi Star and the article leaves out negative coverage accusing them of land grabbing (whether true is besides the point). I've collected some sources at User:Smartse/Saudi Star that need incorporating. Until someone can look into the whole article in greater detail, it needs the COI tag. SmartSE (talk) 13:57, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Further research suggests that the COI tag is fully merited at the moment, as another example, the articles states (stated) "He is committed to Ethiopia, especially to job creation and infrastructure capacity building," but academic sources tell a rather different story - namely that Amoudi has close links to the Ethiopian government and that they allowed him to privatise sectors. This states "critics of the government argue that a handful of private companies with access to the ruling party are ‘stifling the competition by acquiring special deals, inside information, unfettered access to resources from public financial institutional, relief from regulatory burdens, and preferential treatment in import and export processing’" and that "The economist Hansson (2004) in his study on the role of the private sector in the Ethiopian economy singled out two of the largest business conglomerates in Ethiopia with links to the ruling party whose business practices have given them a commanding presence in the economy: the MIDROC Group" and later on "Together these two conglomerates represent an enormously influential and strategically integrated bloc, dominating key sectors of the economy. Public information about the operations of MIDROC and EFFORT or links between them remains very limited." This sort of information needs to be incorporated. SmartSE (talk) 15:04, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Because one is true doesn't make the other one false. i.e. "He is committed to Ethiopia, especially to job creation and infrastructure capacity building" I actually think he is. I am sure I might have had a hand in editing that line also. In any event NPOV can balance it.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 15:08, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

It is time to respond as TimPTPPR. Please note that I am writing in a private capacity here and that nothing I write here or, indeed, elsewhere on Wikipedia is to be construed as in any way speaking for Sheikh Mohammed Hussein Al Amoudi.

Every effort has been made to offer only factual and verified material in regard to the Sheikh's entry. I think Wikipedia must understand that the media can often not be accurate and that corporate communicators can be. But I want to deal with the extraction (out of context) of the one-liner from the TPPR website (above) which was used, in my opinion, inappropriately to suggest some sort of propaganda operation.

In fact, the operation outlined in that sense was legitimate reputational defence against unwarranted politically-motivated or simply poorly researched claims that exploited the climate of opinion after 9/11. You will note that I (and others) did not bring this issue into the Pages of Wikipedia until the matter had been resolved by the High Court. I would have thought a High Court judgment would be regarded as much more reliable than the opinion of journalists and NGO activists for the simple reason that it would have been arrived at after considerable debate between two opposing barristers.

At least two court cases in the UK have now demonstrated that those claims were unwarranted and, working with excellent legal counsel, we are justifiably proud of our role in dealing with them. At all times, TPPR acts ethically and in defence of reputation in such cases. We are not propagandists.

In the case of the biography of the Sheikh, it was genuinely considered useful to Wikipedia for us to refer to third party statements that we considered to be true and which would give a more rounded picture of the Sheikh since the original article was not up-to-date. Indeed, even with our interventions which were (with one major exception discussed below) based on third party data, the picture is not completely accurate because of the limitations created by Wikipedia's methodology. There is an Official Web Site that is accurate and tells the more rounded story.

You will note that we avoided political controversy and opinion at all times. Two paragraphs were removed by Wikipedia although we considered them to be true and could be warranted to be true by ourselves but they were not immediately verifiable by third party sources and so the removal must stand (although we may come back to these, using the procedures pointed out to us by Smartse when our claimed 'conflict of interest' issue first arose).

We have respected the removal of those paragraphs because, although we think Wikipedia is, in some ways, conceptually flawed in regard to its trust in media, academic and NGO sources (all of which can be politically engaged and not accountable) and in being less forgiving of corporate sources, this is Wikipedia's project and we must abide by its rules.

If we have time, we hope to engage positively in the debate about Paid Editors in due course in a constructive way, one that is directed wholly at having an appropriate baseline of verified facts for users. Our position is that no third party source is to be wholly trusted and that ideological and career or institutional motivations are as suspect as motivations based on profit or 'best light' reputation. The thing is to distrust equally rather than favour some and not others.

TPPR cannot, however, reasonably be expected to cite or introduce politically motivated material critical of the Sheikh if it steadfastly refuses to put in politically motivated material supportive of the Sheikh (which also exists in the media market). It strikes us that it would be beneficial to Wikipedia if all politically motivated material was excluded and only facts, rather than opinion, no matter what the status of the person with the opinion, were permitted.

Therefore, we have made no entries (despite genuinely believing that we were providing an informational service) since late last year and will now follow Wikipedia procedures by involving the community if we think something should be added or something has been added that is not verified or is false.

Statements that are personally defamatory of the Sheikh may require some serious conversation amongst us because he is robust in this area but there is no intention of quashing legitimate political debate if that is what Wikipedia thinks the encyclopedia exists to promote.

By all means retain the COI tag if the above account of our determination to be informational and not polemical is not persuasive. That is Wikipedia's call but if we can undertake to abide wholly by Wikipedia’s rules in this regard, I would submit that what exists at the moment is a fair representation of the facts and verified and that our future engagement will be adequately screened by the community so that the tag might now reasonably be removed, with the threat of its reintroduction sufficient to ensure that we continue to abide by those rules. (TimPTPPR (talk) 15:34, 23 May 2012 (UTC))

Please note that, having drawn attention to unverified and unsourced material regarding the Sheikh's claimed sorting interests on the community page but received no feed-back after some days and in full accord with BLP policy which requires the immediate removal of unsourced material on living persons, I have removed the unsourced material. If the user who placed this material on the Page can reliable source what is claimed, the sourcing will be respected until a more reliable source can be supplied. (TimPTPPR (talk) 11:29, 12 June 2012 (UTC))


 * Hi Tim, sorry for not noticing your earlier post. First I just want to disclose that I have been in contact with Tim over the last few months discussing what can be done about this article. Having now done some more research and removed some more from the article, I think it is heading to becoming neutral. There is still too much content referenced to Al Amoudi's own website, which while it is probably accurate, would be better referenced to independent sources. The best way to provide balance is by using as many reliable sources as possible and simply reporting what the say - it is up to the reader to decide whether that particular source should be trusted or not. This way we also achieve the correct weight of coverage - it is natural for people to include the positives but not the negatives on their own website, but that is not what articles here should do.


 * At the moment I'm a bit concerned that the article still reads too much like a list - he owns this, owns that, donated this, donated that - but doesn't really tell the reader much about him. That may well be because there are few or no sources that discuss this, as he is a relatively private individual, but if there are any we can include this would be very useful. I will try and look on factiva when I have the time. I will also add in some sourced negative information soon - I will try to remain as true to the sources as possible, but if you disagree with what I add then I will seek some other editors to take a look.


 * Finally, the edit that you made today to remove the unsourced material was completely ok for you to make. SmartSE (talk) 20:37, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

No problem on the delay and thank you for accepting the edit.

I confirm the earlier dialogue and the agreement in principle to conduct the conversation as openly as possible here. The content of the official website, for the record, is approved by the Sheikh's legal counsel before uploading and it would be my contention that the reader is owed access to such material on that basis but, of course, the reader can equally by-pass Wikipedia, go to the site and make their own judgement [ http://www.sheikhmohammedalamoudi.info/ ]

The list aspect is noted but, ironically, that derives wholly from our concern to be neutral. I could tell a very interesting narrative that would be informative but I am not allowed to do so unless every statement is third party verified. By the nature of things, it is preferable to tell the story direct to market through an official website rather than rely on third parties (journalists) who may not report matters correctly. In that context, I simply chose third party reports that struck me as fair and true and entered those alone but the net effect is that (given the concern not to add opinion which would not meet Wikipedia guidelines) this inevitably becomes a list that, bluntly, may be positive but is not nearly as positive as it could be, provides no context and ends up looking like a catalogue.

I submit that these are actually flaws in the Wikipedia model insofar as the reliance for verification on third parties who cannot be assumed to be reliable and who rarely contextualise their work (news is rarely analysis) means that there will be a propensity for biographies of persons who do not deal regularly with the media by choice to be disadvantaged - but we are not here to criticise Wikipedia, merely to do our best to be truthful within its given structures. In this case, we are dealing with a very private individual and the official web site is still the preferred way of communicating truths.

With regard to 'negative' material, I would suggest, in good faith, some care. There are intelligent debates to be had but there are also politically motivated attacks and/or errors of judgment (which you have seen for yourself in the court cases) where an extremely robust line is taken on defamation. Innuendo can be less easy to deal with.

Particular issues are being publicised non-objectively as 'campaigns' where the data can be unreliable, weakly contextualised and where innuendo can be used for political purposes. Particular claims may or may not be contested later with the disadvantage of a greater obligation being placed on the target of criticism than the critics to be reliable in statements. In some cases, material cannot be released for commercial confidentiality reasons. Wikipedia has not yet come to terms with the existence of the 'official' campaign engaged in half-truths and 'spin' - the 'sexed up' dossier is not only the creation of governments seeking to justify policy.

Naturally, we will look at any negative material that appears and will consult with others on how to respond. There is some material that can be used to counter 'negative' material and which is equally reliable according to the standards of Wikipedia. What I am concerned about is the transfer to Wikipedia of a war of words with two sides matching each other with 'verified statements' blow by blow and thus misleading the reader as to the man and his breadth of interest. But that is your call and we must rely on your judgment.

I must emphasise that genuine political difference is not our concern in the slightest. We are only concerned about misinformation or disinformation from ultimately unreliable sources that are being laundered into the news market precisely to result in acceptance by platforms such as Wikipedia as true. If such material emerges and is seriously misleading or false, we may have to go off-line to discuss the matter and I apologise for that in advance. (TimPTPPR (talk) 12:25, 13 June 2012 (UTC))

External links modified
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External links modified
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Add Arrest section?
I suggest to add a paragraph about the recent significant "Arrest" event. How about the draft paragraph below? With sources.



Francewhoa (talk) 03:22, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:38, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Mohammed Hussein al Amoudi.jpg

Bznes
I need help 41.144.0.11 (talk) 10:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)