Talk:Mohawk people

Iron Workers
Anyone know anything about the Ironworking tradition of the Mohawks? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.94.179.179 (talk) 22:42, 21 November 2004 (UTC)


 * They (we), work all over Canada and the U.S. Do research into unionised construction or famous architectural landmarks across north america. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.212.224.193 (talk) 23:40, 19 February 2005 (UTC)


 * Note carefully: it is widely known that Mohawk were involved as labor in steel construction. This is only half the story. My Mohawk Mother married a Blackfoot who migrated north to Canada and in part through mother's tribal connections established a large construction company that used steel to build dams and gravel to build roads. With mother's direction, we moved into buildings, houses and small suburbs. Mother helped to sell one of two huge suburbs used for Disney World employees in Florida. The point is this: Mohawk are people with business ambitions. We do not simply swing bar. My concern is that a stereotyped image of our people implies we are not good enough for any other steel connections. This is simply not true.
 * Look at that, eh. "Iron" replaced with "steel" to accurately describe the minerals and metals used to manufacture modern bars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.2.75 (talk) 17:08, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Iron workers and language
the language of the mohawks is alive and always has been alive. today, the young people have taken it upon themselves to learn and teach the language where our elders have failed to do so. It is taught now at home and in the schools, beginning with a childs preschool years. no, it is not dead or extinct nor was it ever. more whitemans propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.212.224.193 (talk) 23:40, 19 February 2005 (UTC)


 * It is certain that use of little known kaien'kéha (eng. Mohawk) was discouraged on work sites, where English and French managed dangerous situations and environments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.2.75 (talk) 16:59, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The Rosetta Stone project estimates that among 80,000 Mohawk descendents today, 4,000 are fluent in Kanien'kéha. An increasing school exposure is going to see this number increase. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.2.75 (talk) 17:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Clarification?
Can someone clarify the following sentence: One large group of Mohawks, who were expelled by the United States as traitors were given land by the British Governor Craig and imposed to French speaking Quebecois who were refused new land because of not being English.? I would do it, but I don't understand what it's trying to say. What does "imposed to" mean? &mdash; Pburka 1 July 2005 02:31 (UTC)


 * I have removed the latter half of this sentence as it makes no sense. Morgan Leigh 03:47, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * This sentence, even in revised form, seems to indicate that the Mohawks of Kanesatake, Kahnawake, etc. only arrived after the British conquest. But the article on [Kateri] (beatified 17th C catholic Mohawk) says that she lived in Kahnawake in the 1680's.  I always thought Kahnawake was the result of Jesuit proselytising in the Mohawk valley.  So the Craig reference seems very wrong - I am removing it for the moment - besides being couched in racist terms ("British Governor Craig," "imposed to Francophone Quebecois" etc.), clearly a holdover from racial tensions in 1990 over the Jacques Cartier Bridge blockade.  Jackmitchell — Preceding undated comment added 02:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Who is Craig? Governor Frederick Haldimand intercepted the only "large group" migration of Mohawk and other Haudenosaunee citizens into Canada, giving them almost 1 million acres in Ontario (today reduced to 45,000 acres). The relationship between 'visiting' Caucasians and 'indigenous' Americans is complex and includes many diverse, competitive colonial groups stealing over 5 million square kilometeres of land. Please refer to http://www.tolatsga.org/iro.html where you will find detailed the centuries of forced displacement of Mohawk north from present New York State into present Canada well explained. The Mohawk Nation was settled for at least 1,000 years in up state New York - formal relations existed with many bordering Nations. People often confuse Mohawk physical presence with the presence of any of six American Nations making up the Haudenosaunee democracy. The Haudenosaunee territories included many less politically sophisticated Nations in the present states of Minesota south to Missouri, east to Virgina, north to New York. Caucasian occupiers engaging military in their attempts to secure American land, often 'confused' the hostility of subject nations and retaliated against the Haudenosaunee. In the 1700's Haudenosaunee Chief Joseph Brant, had earned a reputation for enforcing treaty agreements at a time when colonials were busier breaking than forming agreements. Brant escaping caucasian attacks in retailiation for the aggression of the Mingo Nation, hundreds of Kilometers west and south in the Ohio Valley, accepted a parcel of land called Six Nations in present Ontario. Chief Brant helped fortify Canada against early Caucasian invasions from the south. For two centuries following the creation of Six Nations, a northern outpost for the Haudenosaunee territories, Chief Brant's community became increasingly important. In mid-late 1800's Caucasian influx into New York State became (according to the Caucasian administration there) "unmanageable". Essentially, hoards of migrating Cancasians poured into New York state, bypassing arranged settlement offices and pushing the largely peaceful Mohawk off of their settled lands into Canada. Canada had established Six Nations to manage earlier migration, but the new influx was far too massive for one reservation, so many smaller reservations were setup along the St. Lawrence. Great Lakes reservations were also used. All of these reservations were placed on the Canada US border. In most reservations a previous small Mohawk presence had been established around Jesuit missions. French settlers in some areas tolerated Mohawk who peacefully cleared small plots where they live today, like the Mohawk in New York and Vermont. In most areas, Mohawk were not tolerated, and the colonial 'encampment' policy was the outcome for the majority. ... Incidentally, and unfortunately it was in part unfounded Jesuit fear of Mohawk potential involvement in scalping of missionaries and settlers in the Ohio Valley a half Century before Brant's migration that began forcing the six Nations of the Haudenosaunee north. In addition, Mohawk respect of the Haudenosaunee, dictated that they avoid further stressing their western American allies. Caucasian intolerance of pre-existing Haudenosaunee democracy coupled with expanding colonial competition worked together to squeeze the once vast Mohawk territories into a handful of miniscule reservations. ... I hope this broader snapshot helps clarify your rather vaguely stated issue involving Caucasian and American citizens of North America. Feel free to use this paragraph. 24.84.2.75 (talk) 21:06, 17 September 2008 (UTC)Little Hawk


 * While the Mohawk had used the St. Lawrence Valley for hunting grounds (likely defeating the St. Lawrence Iroquoians centuries before), Kahnawake, Kahnesatake, and Akwesasne (also known in NY as St. Regis Reservation) were established along the St. Lawrence River by Mohawk and other First Nations in association with French colonial settlement and Catholic missions: Kahnawake in 1719, Kanesatake in 1717, both near Montreal; and Akwesasne further upriver in the 1740s by a group of Mohawk from Kahnawake. Parkwells (talk) 14:37, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Mohawk warrior society flag
The flag that was briefly at the top of this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mohawk-flag.jpg / http://crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ca_mohak.html) is representative of the Mohawk warrior society, and not the Mohawk community as a whole. The individual Haudenosaunee nations' flags are variants of the Haudenosaunee nation's flag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hauflag.png. The St. Regis band council probably has its own flag as well. There is nothing wrong with putting the flag of the Warrior society in the article next to text about warrior societies, but considering there isn't even mention of Haudenosaunee warrior societies on wikipedia yet, I think that should wait - putting the warrior society flag on this article gives a very wrong impression. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brianski (talk • contribs) 09:51, 30 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Point taken; thanks for taking the time. El_C 11:24, 30 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The Mohawk Warrior society is a known terrorist organization in Canada. They are responsible for the death of Corporal Marcel Lemay and a seventy-one-year-old World War II veteran.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.43.140.143 (talk) 11:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * 'Kay. By that standard, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is also a known terrorist organization within the Canadian borders for they are responsible for the deaths of many Canadians, specifically Indigenous folks. Indeed, their history of domestic terrorism is well-documented (pay particular note to pp. 19+, including pg. 30-31's description of intentional terrorism across Inuit Nunangat). So, unless you are prepared to say Brydon Whitstone and Rodney Levi in the same breath (or keystroke) as Marcel Lemay, you best understand what sort of ideology you are implying with this comment. Danachos (talk) 15:38, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Congress of Vienna did not happen in 1837
"The Mohawk Nation, as part of the Iroquois Confederacy, were signatories to the treaties concluding the Congress of Vienna in 1837.". Congress of Vienna took place in 1814-15. I doubt whether any Native Americans were present in Vienna because the congress took no decisions on any American borders. This sentence needs changing anyway because the date is obviously wrong. I would suggest deleting it and rephrasing the next "five years later" setence. I suspect that if the Mohawks were present at any European treaty negociations it must have been the Treaty of Ghent of 1814 which ended the War of 1812. Great Britain tried to create an Idian buffor state and therefore could have included some Native Americans in its delegtion. However, I cannot find a cource confirming this, also. Friendly Neighbour 19:42, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I corrected the section as this "facts" are almost certainly not true, and the congress date is evidently wrong. Friendly Neighbour 06:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Nope. The Congress began in 1814-15, but its endless meetings took place for years and its final documents were signed in 1837, when among other things the title of Holy Roman Emperor was done away with and the title of Austrian Emperor endorsed as a sop to retain the dynastic dignity of the former holders of the HRE title, the Habsburgs (by said document; they'd created the title themselves in 1804 but it was not recognized as such, formally, until the closing of the CoV) and various German duchies were elevated to kingdoms, or merged into larger units.  The Congress functioned something like the League of Nations, though less formally so, from 1815-1837; but 1837 was definitely the final year of the Congress, and its summation (according to A.J.P. Taylor anyway, as well as Colin McEvedy). By the way where I first heard this was during colour-commentary to the Oka Crisis.... Skookum1 23:07, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The title of emperor of the HRE was abolished in 1806, the title of Emperor of Austria started about then, and the final act of the congress of Vienna was signed in june 1815. This is a tall tale. 184.160.153.51 (talk) 01:46, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Mohawk Contributions To Modern Society
Can someone inform me if people belonging to the Mohawk nation were employed as construction workers on tall buildings? I have heard a story that they were chosen for this task because they possessed the ability to work at great heights without vertigo or acrophobia being an issue. If someone can veryify this and add a piece to this effect to the article, this may be welcome. Perhaps if there are members of the Mohawk nation themselves who could verify this (possibly even some of those putative former construction workers?) then this would add considerable weight to what I have heard. Calilasseia 21:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yup.. If someone wants to expand from this, that would be great. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 01:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all Infobox Ethnic group infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 20:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

POV issues
Almost too many to list and sometimes I think it's a question of petulant vandalism, as in the residential school section; much of this article is POV in tone and needs de-POVizing....also the formal governments of the Mohawk should be articled separately; this by its title (small-n) is a "people"/ethno article properly.Skookum1 (talk) 22:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * One point definitely needs the revision due to POV: Residential Schools:
 * "The school was conducted in malice and travesty methods, and many abuse issues came to light including Mohawk children being punished for speaking Mohawk language to one another." First, to clarify:  I'm Cajun French, and I would find this sentence absolutely meaningless in reference to whatever harsh measures were used to force Cajun French out of Southern Louisiana, so this means even less to me when applied to the history of a people I've not descended from.  Whatever "malice/travesty" needs specific documentation on what was done to the children that was evil. Moreover, if it went beyond the normal school punishments of the time, that needs documentation. Doing research on my own family's school history from the 1920s on, I know that various forms of beating (spanking, paddles, switches, belts, rulers over the hands) children, both in school and out of school, for breaking school rules, was the norm. (Along with dunce caps, forcing children to kneel on sacks of rice, washing mouths out with soap, and the concept of the Teacher being infallible, so you cannot possibly stand up against them.)  I know of at least one case where a bull whip was used on a "protestant" bully in an all white school, by the teacher (Laura Ingalls Wilder--Farmer Boy(?)).  Just present what beatings took place, and where it went beyond the norm for school punishment.  Most people can figure out if it was evil or not on their own.
 * Besides, the link to travesty implies strip teases and cross-dressing, which ought to have nothing to do with school misconduct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DragonSlaveII (talk • contribs) 04:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * To make this worthy of note, I don't think you need to show that the punishments used were beyond those usually applied in contemporary schools; you would just need to show that the punishments had the specific purpose of altering the language spoken by the students. --Jfruh (talk) 22:55, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Stories I heard from my grandmother who was a student 1923-1935 involved snapping a rubberband on an out-streched tounge as punishment for children who were caught speaking their native language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.243.230 (talk) 06:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

What follows is what OldSigma must say about POV. I have heartburn over the typical "University" approach to this subject, by this I mean the too uniform emphasis on supporting citations. I see this as a primary POV issue. When Kanien'keha (language) was being standardized the task force went to the people, to individuals who spoke the language. They didn't look for citations of what they were being told by the speakers (naturally many elderly). Where this article addresses what the people believed or what their culture included before the invasions, or as much as 100 years afterwards, it is inappropriate to look for a citation. I see it as disrespectful. If one is found it will be something written from the point of view of the invaders (among whom the majority of my ancestors figure). I think the topics need to be separated with history after the invasion being the main area where citations of the invaders' documents would appear. This would have to be balanced by citations of what the "invadees" reported as happening. Comments/information on cultural issues from the time of encounter likely originate with the invaders and might best be introduced with "It is alleged..." or similar phrasing (although they are in the minority, my ancestors would want this point made for them as they are now forever silent). As to sources: This is opinion and comes from me. OldSigma — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.128.44 (talk • contribs) 20:48, 27 January 2015

Skyscrapers
I haven't added citation yet, but here's some generally credible sources:
 * The Smithsonian institute:
 * http://www.sites.si.edu/exhibitions/exhibits/booming/main.htm
 * http://www.nmai.si.edu/press/releases/2002_04_15_Booming_Out.html
 * NPR:
 * http://www.npr.org/programs/lnfsound/stories/020701.steel.html
 * Book:
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=eGXeFCkTmlgC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=mohawk+skyscrapers&source=web&ots=4Nh6nE8cZl&sig=KbXhqmjqgBA1KEE8jMGbDQ_a2KA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result —Preceding unsigned comment added by DragonSlaveII (talk • contribs) 04:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Iron and Steel Workers
Getting 'steely' about what we do!

Say a Montreal Iron Worker comes to Vancouver to work steel. Does he or she have to go back to college? Do we keep that displaced job title? Two legitimate questions arising from a potentially racist identity. This author prefers clear communication that avoids hurt and disgrace, and feels (no doubt with many others) that this is a legitimate concern. Perhaps the best course for Wikipedia is to change that title to "Iron and Steel Workers", and change every internal document use of iron into "steel". We do live in the 21st century after all. This will respect the noted history involving the deaths of many Mohawk "iron workers" early in the last century, while giving our people credit for their contribution to current construction! comment added by 24.84.2.75 (talk) 18:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC)Little Hawk

Synthesis in intro?

 * ''. As original members of the Iroquois League, or Haudenosaunee, the Mohawk were known as the "Keepers of the Eastern Door", who guarded the Iroquois Confederation against invasion from that direction. (It was from the westward direction that European settlers first appeared, sailing up the Hudson River to found and inhabit Albany, New York, in the early 17th century.)

The implication of the sentence in parantheses is that the origin of the "keepers of the Eastern Door"/guarding the confederacy against invasion from that direction term/context is connected with the arrival of Europeans in the early 17th Century. Does the term only date back that far?? i.e. was it only created in response to the arrival of the strangefsrs at "the eastern door" or is it older than that? If it's older tahn that, teh material in parantheses is synthesis, "connecting two dots to make six more".Skookum1 (talk) 15:33, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I took out the sentence about Europeans, as the Mohawk were Keepers of the Eastern Door against tribes in New England before English and Europeans arrived.--Parkwells (talk) 22:38, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

New Canadian Provinces?
what is with the box at the bottom of the page listing proposed Canadian provinces? What does it have to do with this article? I will remove it soon if no one objects with a legitimate reason for keeping it.Camelbinky (talk) 19:47, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That box is of spurious origin and its existence/deletion is being debated...placing it here was inappropriate, for sure; although during the Oka Crisis and also during the Spicer commission the creation of various micro-provinces was proposed as a solution to native claims and also rural self-rule....but it's not in the article, and "proposed provinces" is a highly POV subject to start with, the template will probably be deleted.....Skookum1 (talk) 20:13, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


 * it is there due to the content in Proposals for new Canadian provinces and territories, about the events around the seperation of Québec from Canada.. basically many indigenous leaders in Québec (including Mohawks) stated that if Québec left Canada, they would leave Québec and join Canada as a new indigenous province, named Kanienkehaka. --Dalar (talk) 23:14, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * yes, I remember all that....but did that box have anything in it about proposed new provinces and territories? Don't think so....Skookum1 (talk) 04:41, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Removal of Section on Casino
The section has nothing to do with the Mohawk Nation and is filled with errors. The Casino and Gaming operations discussed belong to the St. Regis Mohawk Tribe, a federally recognized Indian tribe, and should be moved to that Article. The Mohawk Nation is not, and has not been in negotiations for a Casino in Sullivan County as mentioned. The Mohawk Nation is not party to the gaming compact between New York State and the St. Regis Mohawk Tribe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.21.62 (talk) 21:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

"mohawk" versus "Mohawk"
An IP is intent on replacing "Mohawk" with "mohawk". I have reverted it three times and classified it as vandalism. The IP added the following to my talk page:

''hi Tom, the POV you keep reverting to does not apply to the Mohawk Nation. Other Indian population may meet your pov but the Iroquois, Six Nations, & members do not. The sub-civilizing POV is a product of 19th & 20th century ethnocentrism. onen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.95.71 (talk) 16:59, 25 March 2009 (UTC) ''

If this makes sense to anybody else, please educate me. Otherwise please revert it again. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 17:07, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Not all the instances of "Mohawk" were changed to "mohawk". Could you explain your reason for capitalizing this term? Although this article is labeled "Mohawk nation", it mainly describes the "Mohawk Nation". There never was a Mohawk nation, or tribe. There were Iroquoian tribes during the Woodland period that later formed Nations, than formed a Confederation. 19th & 20th century ethnocentrism, as well as Manifest Destiny, perpetuated the false image of six tribes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.95.71 (talk) 20:17, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "Mohawk", as it's used in this article, is a proper noun being used as the name of a people. Wikipedia policy indicates that when such is the case, the letter is capitalized. The rest of your comments appear to me to be a synthesis of various ideas that you believe to be true regarding the influences surrounding the origins of present day Iroquoian cultures. Wikipedia doesn't permit the addition of material that consists of "original research" see WP:OR. Unless you can provide reliable secondary sources for what you're contending, I doubt that it will be included in the encyclopedia. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 20:31, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * This is not vandalism or presentism. Representing Mohawks as a tribe(pre-civilization) is the act of presentism, a POV that is degrading. Changing the title to "Mohawk Nation" could aid in clarifying that confusion. Since capitalization is abiguous and "tribe" and "nation" are also terms of endearment, most readers wouldn't have noticed. Even when documents state "Nation", present views on ethnicity override historic context; a synthesis of pop-culture and notions on race occurs. What more info could you need that is not already in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.95.71 (talk) 23:57, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * And EXACTLY what does anything you’ve said here have to do with the edits you made.     To be specific:
 * 1. What grammatical justification do you have for changing “Mohawk” to “mohawk”?
 * A. Your usage of "Mohawks" would imply an action by a Mohawk nation, or Nation--since you are describing "a people". Using "mohawks" would imply a bunch of mohawks, a group of people. (Many "Americans" cannot correctly identify countries on a map. Many "americans" are Indigenous Peoples.) "Because of ... outstanding treaty obligations, Mohawks fought against the United States." "Because of ... outstanding treaty obligations, angered mohawks fought against the United States." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.95.71 (talk) 02:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 2. What point are you trying to make when you repeatedly add, “During the second and third quarters of the 18th century, the Province of New York was bounded by the Royal Proclamation of 1763...” How EXACTLY does a proclamation issued in 1763 define the borders of NY from 1726 to 1763?  What is the significance of even bringing this issue up?
 * A. The section is titled "American Revolutionary War". The Boundary at the beginning of the revolutionary War, that started at the beginning of the fourth quarter of the 18th-century, was that of the Royal Proclamation. "During the late 18th-century," would be more appropriate for the American Revolutionary War section. Mentioning the boundary before, "Most of the Mohawks in the Province of New York lived," is helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.95.71 (talk) 02:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 3. What EXACTLY does this sentence that you keep adding mean, “Others [apparently referring to Mohawk individuals] recieved pensions and lands from the Crown that were due to soldiers?” Who does “soldiers” refer to? What is the significance of this SPECIFIC claim?
 * A. This was added after descriptions of other rewards, such as an uncited commission. Fair and Balanced? Would "loyalists" have been more appropriate in place of "soldiers"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.95.71 (talk) 02:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless you can add some logical explanation for you edits, it still looks like vandalism to me. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 00:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Allowing the amount of unsourced material and bad chronology to pass scrutiny, and spending time on the usage of big M's and little n's, is quite remarkable. Almost proves the point of ethnocentrism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.95.71 (talk) 02:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * What can I say? You are very simply wrong on the grammar issues and you admit you were wrong on the dates relating to New York borders, yet you restored these errors three different times.  As far as the last question, you still haven't provided a lucid explanation. If the Crown provided "pensions and lands" to Mohawks, then that's what the sentence should say.  It should also say where those lands were.  It is particularly curious that you lament "spending time on the usage of big M's and little n's" -- you're the one that brought the subject up. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 12:44, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Personally, it wouldn't offend me at all if the article were renamed "Mohawk Nation", although something closer to Kanienkehaka is preferable in my mind. The real issue here is trying to get consensus for any proposed name change, something that would probably leave both of us out of luck. But that's the nature of the encyclopedia, isn't it. Deconstructhis (talk) 00:04, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I would agree. Although, anything less than Nation is uncivilized. Consensus is solidarity, rather than convincing 99% or more of the voters.
 * Who really knows the true nature of the Encyclopedia--talking points no less. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.95.71 (talk) 02:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll take a pass on the "solidarity" and "ethnocentrism" rhetorical flourish stuff, thanks anyway. Looking at Tom's list, I'd suggest that he's definitely onto something with his criticism of your noun uses. Out of everything that I've watched you post here, in my opinion the only points that appear to me to be at least somewhat supportable for use in Wikipedia are regarding the Royal Proclamation of 1763 and its relevance to 18th century Mohawks. The question is: are you willing to put it into a referenced form that will pass consensus and fit into the encyclopedia? If you're not, then we're just wasting each others time.  cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 04:30, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Was it relevant to Mohawks? It certainly was to many Native Americans, but did the Mohawks claim lands outside the 1763 limits placed on the frontier? Weren't colonial violations of Mohawk territory prior to the Revolution entirely within the borders of New York? Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 12:44, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * comment rather than try to wade into the above discussion, I wanted to point out that the emergent standard for people/ethno articles is "+people" as in Okanagan people, when there is a disambiguative issue, that is - i.e. for Haida and Palus and Tsuu T'ina there is no doubt who it refers to, whereas Okanagan has a primary meaning that is different (the people themselves call themselves Syilx but that's not current in English) - while the use of capital-N Nation implies an organization or government, and is often a very necessary disstinction; Sto:lo is an ethnographic article, Sto:lo Nation is one of two tribal councils, the other being Sto:lo Tribal Council, simialrly St'at'imc is an ethnographic article, St'at'imc Nation a redirect to Lillooet Tribal Council (their most common name in English)....in the case of the Shuswap, the Shuswap Nation Tribal Council is one of two tribal councils, the Northern Shuswap Tribal Council is another, some Secwepemc bands are unaffiliated; while Shuswap First Nation is a particular band of the first council.....US disambiguations often use "(tribe)"; capital-T "Tribe" implies a government, on either side of the border. Now it sounds pretty clear from what I've read here that "Mohawk Nation" (capital-N) refers to an official body of some kind, self-constituted at least if not constituted under either Canadian or American legislative definitions; Mohawk people or Mohawk (tribe), in the emerging disambiguative pattern, would refer to the Mohawk as an ethnographic group, but not to said organization, the Mohawk Nation.  Because of the existence of the latter body, Mohawk nation is an awkward and confusing title (as witness the above argument) because of the need for Mohawk Nation to be a distinct article.  Now, not all ethnographic articles hve been separated from/defined from their government articles, and that all needs doing for various reasons; what I suggest here is that the contents of Category:Mohawk (if it exists - or maybe Category:Mohawk people??) be sorted out and listed side-by-side to work out all the necessary differences/definitions.....another example that comes to mind is when somebody writes "Tsimshian Nation" in Tsimshian-related articles, they mean it in an ethnographic sense without realizing tht Tsimshian Nation was a now-defunct tribal council; similarly Haida Nation is the self-constituted government of the Canadian branch of the Haida (although I think that's ar edirect to Council of the Haida Nation; similarly Skwxwu7mesh vs Squamish Nation and the list goes on...I'm not sure of the full range of articles in the Anishinaabe subdivison of NorthAmNative.  Summing up, for clarity because of my rambling style, if Mohawk Nation is a term used by a certain body, it should be respected as such, and the "people" article which would take in that organization and all others and associated ethnographic/historical information should just be one of Mohawk, Mohawk people, Mohawk (tribe) etc - with the Canadian standard tending to avoid teh "(tribe)" disambiguation I'd recommend going with Mohawk people.  As for not capitalizing Mohawk, that's a no-go in English; the adjective canadien for example is not capitalized in French, but in English "Canadian" most certainly is.  And if it's a question of it being culturally/politically correct to not-capitalize it, my response to that is "poiltically-correct language is inherently POV",Skookum1 (talk) 01:33, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Further, since it seems Category:Mohawk people does exist, then the title of this article, as the central article of that category, should clearly be Mohawk people.Skookum1 (talk) 01:34, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

"man-eater" name
I notice that there is no section describing the form of warfare or the practice of capturing and torturing opponents. It is pretty clear from the contemporary english and french accounts, that one of reasons the Mohawk were feared was their practice of eating the hearts of butchered captives. Vontrotta (talk) 21:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

About Clothing
It sounds odd to me, that quill work and using sinew as stiching thread would be introduced to the Mohawk only after they started wearing cotton shirts and woolen trousers.I am not an expert, but this is like one is saying: Later muskets and winchesters where introduced, after which the use of clubs, spears and bow and arrow gained in popularity. ''Later dress after European contact combined some cloth pieces such as the males ribbon shirt in addition to the place of the deerskin clothing, and wool trousers and skirts. For a time many Mohawk peoples incorporated a combination of the older styles of dress with newly introduced forms of clothing. ''According to author Kanatiiosh in "Hodenasaunee Clothing and & Other Cultural Items" Mohawk as a part of the Hodenasaunee Confederacy: "Traditionally used furs obtained from the woodland, which consisted of elk and deer hides, corn husks, and they also wove plant and tree fibers to produce [the] clothing". ''Later Sinew or animal gut was cleaned and prepared as a thread for garments and footwear and was threaded to porcupine quills or sharp leg bones, in order to sew or pierce eyeholes for threading. Guest--78.94.210.180 (talk) 13:45, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Removing Attempt at "Aggression" Section
There is what looks to be an attempt to insert a subsection titled "aggression." Apart from failed formatting, the section is poorly written, very POV and uncited except for a direct link. The section basically just states that the Mohawk were inordinately violent, enjoying torture and cannibalism. There are no qualifications or examinations of these statements.

The unformatted link leads to what is apparently a middle school student's paper with no sources or citations and highly inaccurate information (for example, it states that "most, if not all" Native Americans were cannibals, and that the Aztec performed human sacrifice because they had no other source of protein.).

I'm removing this section; if someone wants to put it back, you need to format it properly, get some citations other than one student's (bad) essay and attempt to write the entry with an objective viewpoint. In case that's unclear, describing a people as "the most violent and sadistic in existence" is NOT objective. The Cap&#39;n (talk) 22:36, 25 February 2011 (UTC)


 * After some thought, I've realized the above was overly harsh. For all I know the person who put this entry in honestly meant to improve the article.  I apologize if I came across as denigrating.
 * That said, the entry truly did not belong and I stand by my edit. The Cap&#39;n (talk) 22:15, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The "Mohawk" name is an insult
I think the name of this article should be changed. "Mohawk" is not the name the "Kanien'kehá:ka" use for themselves - it is a name given to them by the Narragansett, an ennemy tribe, and is meant as an insult. We should consider renaming this article and references to it to Kanien'kehá:ka or maybe the easier transliteration Kanienkeháka or Kanienkehaka. TheAnarcat (talk) 14:34, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Have you read WP:TITLE? What part of that do you think justified changing the name? Shouldn't we get them to change their name first, since they call themselves the Mohawk Nation? Or do you think it's important that we use a name they don't use for their nation? Isn't it a bit patronising to suggest we avoid the name they use? Dougweller (talk) 15:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)


 * And I've removed the template as it might be seen by members of the Mohawk nation as insulting. Dougweller (talk) 15:44, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Within our communities, we know our names. The article points out what we refer to ourselves as. Other tribes have the same issue with what they call themselves vs. what the Americans know them as. It's okay in this instance since this is meant for education, not gospel truth. We've identified ourselves with our name in this article. Let the users continue to learn about our people and who we are. It's better for us to put more effort into keeping the other statements on this page truthful and correct. 161.130.188.30 (talk) 17:33, 13 February 2012 (UTC)Karihtonowenstsía Quackenbush

Population figures
I've removed them all as unsourced & dubious. Native American Justice By Laurence French, 2003, gives 25,000 in the US and Canada.. This gives a few figures for the 90s (note 'small' population in Brooklyn). They aren't in the 2010 census. Dougweller (talk) 11:38, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

"Paganism" not factual
This is not factual "Beginning in 1669, missionaries attempted to convert many Mohawks from paganism to Christianity". To label the Mohawk belief structure as 'paganism' is a point of view from European Christianity. The Mohawks had their own name for a monotheastic creator(Hahgwehdiyu). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.177.221 (talk) 15:04, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

notable Olympian missing....
I just scanned the list of people, seems incomplete.....there was an Olympic paddler, I think his sport was, who was one of the Mohawk commentors on Newsworld during the Oka Crisis, can't remember his name, but he's not the Olympian who's the only one on the list so far. I'll look over the Canadian Olympians categories and see if I can pick him out.Skookum1 (talk) 04:39, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Ellen Gabriel
I'm sure I've remembered her name right, and it surprises me she doesn't have an article....I'd thought she became an MP; she was the spokesperson for the Mohawk Woman's Council during the Oka Crisis, who performed negotiator/intermediary roles between the Mohawks and the SQ/Cdn Forces and also for the media. I'll try and get a stub on her today...surprised she's not here already.....and there's articles on some of the Mohawks involved at the standoff at Kahnesetake, I'll add them after looking at the Oka Crisis article to find their names/links.Skookum1 (talk) 04:47, 24 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Here are some bio-links if anyone wishes to start on her article.....I'd only have time for a raw stub. from MontrealCTV, the Assembly of First Nations, CBC and there's lots more.Skookum1 (talk) 06:01, 24 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Page has been created, Ellen Gabriel. Tradereddy (talk) 16:15, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
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Move discussion in progress
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In 1664, the Pequot of New England killed a Mohawk ambassador, starting a war that resulted in the destruction of the Pequot.
If I am not mistaken, the Pequot wars pretty much finished the Pequots. It was by New England colonialist (Ct,Ma, and Plymouth) with some help by Narragansett and Mohegan Nations. Which ambassador was killed is unclear, and it seems to be unlikely to have been by the Pequot people. Needs to be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonathan Ames Fuller (talk • contribs) 03:12, 2 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Maybe some confusion from this? Snippet only, but The Red King's rebellion: racial politics in New England, by Russell Bourne 1990- Page 131 "After the Pequot War — which, as seen, was fought to put in place an English-Mohegan monopoly where once the Pequots held sway — the Pocumtucks suffered for their ages-old antipathy to the Mohegans. ... historian suggests — the Pocumtuck-Mohawk connection snapped in 1664: that summer the Pocumtucks committed the international crime of murdering a visiting princely Mohawk ambassador."Dougweller (talk) 15:04, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

hatnotes
I scanned the article and didn't find significant instances of "inappropriate or misinterpreted citations" or "weasel words". Rather than just remove the hatnotes I'll let someone more knowledgeable take a look. Peter Flass (talk) 00:15, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Mohawks in town of palatine NY
I recalled this event when it occurred, The cite is "Group from St. Regis to return to land of Mohawk ancestors|Indians buy 322 acres of land for a fresh start|Hope to leave St. Regis troubles behind|Syracuse Herald Journal|Sunday, 9/12/93" but this isn't online so I don't want to ref something I can't read. Also, does anyone know if anything ever came of this? Is it still active or not? I added a paragraph, but if it's a dead issue it should probably be dropped. Peter Flass (talk) 01:14, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Transportation
Mohawk Indians often traveled by land on horse back, but canoes were the most common method of transportation. There are many different styles of Native American canoes, including three major categories: dugout canoes, bark canoes, and plank canoes. Dugout canoes are long, made from hollowed-out logs, and can carry many people. Bark canoes are made from elm bark and are light and fast. Plank canoes are made of cedar wood and the planks are seamed together rather than a single log being hollowed out. Canoeing is still popular among Mohawk Indians, but many of them use modern canoes. Craftsmen still make traditional Indian canoes although they are mainly used for display or cultural festivities.

Assessment comment
Substituted at 00:18, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Etymology of "Mohawk" as "cannibal"
It's been touched on here in the Talk section, but it seems like the Etymology section of the site should at least make mention of the Mohawk/cannibal connection - separate from the question of whether the people practiced cannibalism or not. I have seen some sites claiming that the name given to the people by a competing tribe means "bear people," but still more reputable sites claim it means "flesh-eater." The Merriam-Webster dictionary says "Mohawk" means, literally, "cannibal," and cites usage dating back to 1640. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SlickVicar (talk • contribs) 14:31, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Clarification
From the lead: "The name means "People of the Flint Place."" Which name? Mohawk or  Kanien'kehá:ka?--Khajidha (talk) 13:12, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

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Lede wording: Mohawk vs. Kanien'kehá:ka
I didn't feel comfortable making the change, but maybe "The Mohawk people (who identify as Kanien'kehá:ka)[...]" could instead be something like "The Kanien'kehá:ka ("People of the flint"; commonly known in English as Mohawk people)[...]". This would be to put the indigenous name first, even as the page title retains the colonial European one for ease of searching. There are certainly other pages where this is done, for example at Joseph Brant. 76.69.155.96 (talk) 19:27, 9 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Old suggestion but ✅, makes total sense WikiFouf (talk) 06:46, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Arrival of tribal chief Ozenonton (Schiphol)
Hi, anybody hanging around who is able to confirm Ozenonton was the last tribal chief of the Mahawk tribe as published in the (Nederlandsche Dagbladpers te Batavia from May 11, 1949) ? Thank you for your time. Lotje (talk) 06:15, 11 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Just added a file to show Ozenonton arriving in Schiphol, May 11, 1949. Lotje (talk) 06:15, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Anybody interested in the List of reviewers by subject? Might be helpfult with the name of this tribal chief. The description reads: Ozenonton, but the Dutch language newspaper dated May 12, 1949 spell the name Oskenonton (running deer) of the Chief. As there is a Oskenonton Island, I presume that is the correct spelling. Thank you for your time. :-) Lotje (talk) 08:13, 10 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Unless the dude in that photo was 115 years old, it seems to me that your story is conflating two "Running Deers":
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Running_Deer (disambiguation page)
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_F._Malonson (was of the Wampanoag Nation, lived in the correct era, and his uncle is called Harrison Vanderhoop...just sayin'!)
 * https://www.indiantime.net/story/2014/04/10/opinion/the-great-grandchildren-of-chief-john-running-deer-with-a-replica-of-the-wolf-belt/13561.html (last hereditary chief of the Kanienʼkehá꞉ka; the Mohawk Nation still has chiefs)
 * 2607:FEA8:BFA0:BD0:FC7F:7EFE:6B38:695E (talk) 05:48, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 6 July 2020 and 16 August 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): KunaalSundara.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 04:22, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Flag Accuracy?
I think it's important to note that the Eagle and Silver Chain design is specifically the emblem and flag of the Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory in Canada. As such, I don't think it can properly be said that it represents the Kanienʼkehá꞉ka as a whole. Would moving elsewhere from the infobox be best? I think at the very least we should include a note of its origin so as not to be misleading.

———Iguanaparrots (talk) 06:37, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

"Adopted" seems incorrect.
I think perhaps "adopted" is inappropriate as terminology in cases of forcible abduction, often involving rape.

(Sorry for not being logged on, away from my normal computer.) 73.214.96.211 (talk) 18:11, 16 July 2022 (UTC)