Talk:Moken

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Merge

 * Support merge of Sea Gypsies into Moken. Badagnani 08:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Merge Sea Gypsies into Moken. They are the same, Moken (or Morgan) is the more specific identifier. Bejnar 02:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sea Gypsies is now a disambiguation page. Bejnar 00:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Unverified
The Moken people most likely lived on the Malay Peninsula in ancient times, before scattering throughout the Mergui Archipelago when displaced by Malaysians.

The Moken are the among the smallest minorities in Burma and have proven vulnerable and virtually defenseless against human rights abuses committed by the Burmese junta. Refugee Moken women and girls likely have ended up in prostitution in Thailand's thriving and notorious port brothels.

The Moken still have extensive knowledge of the maritime environment of the Andaman Sea.


 * I have moved this material here from the article so that if any of it can be verified it can then be added back into the article at the appropriate place. For example, the human rights abuses might well be verifiable.  Bejnar 15:03, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Sense of time
The CBS documentary claimed that the Moken have no sense of time, nor words for "hello" or "goodbye", but claims of this kind are almost without exception ill-informed, untrue and largely meaningless. Language Log posting on the Moken, April 2005 C0pernicus 13:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that this particular claim is without basis. What is probable is that the Moken measure time using periodic and seasonal indicators that are specific to their environment.  Bejnar 00:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Cultural values
The Moken nomads have well established cultural values, and their self-sufficiency contrasts with the economic subservience of expeditious natural resource exploitation proffered by modern society. Today, the Moken culture remains intact only on the coastal islands around Kawthoung, formerly Victoria Point, the southernmost town of Myanmar.
 * I removed this from the article because the first sentence seems to be POV and judgmental, and neither statement has been verified. The second statement seems unlikely as the Moken move back and forth between Thailand and Myanmar (Burma) to avoid the authorities.  See, for example,  "SPDC Rounding Up Sea Gypsies For Show" Feb. 11, 2004. Unless by "coastal islands around Kawthoung" they mean all of the undeveloped parts of the Mergui Archipelago, as the Thai seem to have been better at assimilation than the Burmese.  The 1972 ethno-linguistic map of Burma shows that the mainlanders there are Burmese (Burman) and in the southern tip of Burma, Thai, and that the islands are mixed Burman and Malay.  Malay would refer to both the Moken and other Malayan groups.  Bejnar 00:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

ProtoMalay
Moken is not protoMalay and the way the word Prot-malay is used in the article is nonsensical, which is why I will delete it again. Proto-malay is the name of an hypothetical ancestor language that developed into the modern malayic languages such as Moken, Bahasa Melayu/Indonesia, Iban etc. Calling moken proto-malay is therefore completely wrong and a misunderstood usage of the word proto-malay.·Maunus· · ƛ · 14:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Some linguists prefer to restrict the use of the expression "proto-Malay" to a reconstructed early version of Malay. Others include under the term certain languages, particularly those with low linguistic change, that are closer to that reconstructed language than the main dialects of present day Malay.  The term is also used by non-linguists to refer to people who are Malay related, but who occupied the Malay peninsula prior to the main invasion of the Malay people. See, e.g., Orang Asli.  --Bejnar 15:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok. The first of these three uses is however the standard usage of the term in linguistics and other uses should be fitted with an explanation. It could be expressed in a less confusing way be stating that moken "is a rather conservative Malayic language, preserving many traits from proto-Malay". If this is true it would be a much easier explanation to understand for linguists and laymen alike.·Maunus· · ƛ · 15:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That is a sensible wording. I think this should have been considered, and discussed here, before the text was summarily deleted. That's what the discussion page is for. Badagnani 15:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * thats what we're doing now. Frankly I thought that this was just another abandoned ethnicgroup article and noone was really monitoring it - that's why I didn't discuss what I thought to be a correction of a simple mistake.·Maunus· · ƛ · 17:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Adding facts about the Muslim- Moken or Pashu or Bajou
Some of the original contributors may like to see Moken remain as primitive non Muslims and repeatedly erased my contributions without even giving the reasons. Please just look at the Bajou in Malaysia and Indonesia. They are Muslims and are same as Myanmar/Burmese Pashus (Bajou) and mostly found in Johore, Batang Island Indonesia, Sarawak (East Malaysia) and Singapore. I have given a very good reference and also got the consent to republish anywhere, as written below.

So please may you kindly do not try to erase these facts about Burmese Malay Muslims, well known as Pashu or Bajou.

If they are the separate different Ethnic Minority from MOKEN,, why do you all merged my Burmese Malay Muslims article into this article?Or if you think Burmese Malay Muslim Pashus are totally different from Moken, kindly put back my article seperating from this merged one.

Please see Bajauin Wiki. Who authorize my article to merge and later edited out or erase the Burme Malay Muslim? Even Pashu Khaung Phyat bogyman meaning Bajau headhunter is well known in Burma. And we call the whole Peninsular as Pashu Kyun Swe meaning Pashu Peninsular. --Darz kkg (talk) --Darz kkg (talk) 14:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Maung-Ko Ghaffari, Yangon, Myanmar’s letter/article, published in the Sun newspaper, Malaysia on May 28, 2007. He gives me this newspaper photocopy with the permission for reproduction and circulation consent duly signed. He was the Chief Editor of The Islam Alin (Light of Islam) magazine published in Yangon. He cited or referred to the, “Our Pashu People”, published by Colonel Ba Shin, Chairman of the Burma Historical Commission and Secretary General of the Islamic Religious Affairs Council. Burma/Myanmar--Darz kkg (talk) 14:06, 6 January 2008 (UTC).--Darz kkg (talk) 12:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Which ethnolinguistic group are you speaking about, which you believe is not covered adequately at Wikipedia? It is a bit difficult to follow you. There is no Pashu or Bajou ethnic group listed at List of ethnic groups in Burma. Badagnani (talk) 02:33, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Those Pashu Muslims of Burma are really there and I had given referral duly. Viz_
 * 1. Maung-Ko Ghaffari, Yangon, Myanmar’s letter/article, published in the Sun newspaper, Malaysia on May 28, 2007. He was the Chief Editor of The Islam Alin (Light of Islam) magazine published in Yangon. --Darz kkg (talk) 14:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * 2. And “Our Pashu People”, published by Colonel Ba Shin, Chairman of the Burma Historical Commission and Secretary General of the Islamic Religious Affairs Council. Burma/Myanmar.


 * We don’t care about the ethnic group listed at List of ethnic groups in Burma as the Burmese Muslims, Burmese Indian Muslims, Panthays or Burmese Chinese Muslims and Rohingya Muslims are not officially recorded there but WE ALL ARE 

THERE IN BURMA to stay forever whether SPDC Military Junta and you all experts in Anthropology recognize us or not.


 * Anyway, the real issue here is, my article was merged in this article.
 * May be (I may be wrong) Myanmar Pashus are Moken converted into Islam. Some inter-married with local Burmese Muslims, Arab and Indian Muslim sailors and traders.


 * Please read the Wiki article, Bajau. Although not mentioned in Wiki Bajau, Myanmar Pashus could be related to them. May you kindly allow me to repeat my words above_
 * Even Pashu Khaung Phyat bogyman meaning Bajau headhunter is well known in Burma.
 * But as some of the ancient Myanmar/Burmese used to call the Malays as Pashu, it may refer possibly to Malay but now we all call Malay a Malay.


 * 1) The Bajau, (also written as Badjao, Badjaw or Badjau) are an indigenous ethnic group the Philippines and in parts of Sabah, Brunei and Sarawak.
 * 2) many Bajau had migrated to neighbouring Malaysia . ..
 * 3) They were sometimes referred to as the Sea Gypsies,
 * 4) although the term has been used to encompass a number of non-related ethnic groups with similar traditional lifestyles,
 * 5) Bajau is a collective term, used to describe several closely related indigenous groups.
 * 6) The origin of the word Bajau is not clear cut.
 * 7) Although it is generally accepted that these groups of people can be termed Bajau, these groups never call themselves Bajau.
 * 8) They call themselves with the names of their tribes that are mostly the names of the places of their origins.
 * 9) They accept the term because they realise that they share some vocabulary and general genetic characteristic such as in having darker skin,
 * 10) For most of their history, the Bajau have been a nomadic, seafaring people, living off the sea by trading and subsistence fishing.
 * 11) They kept close to shore by erecting houses on stilts, and traveled using lepa-lepa, handmade boats which many lived in.
 * 12) The many Bajau sub-groups vary culturally and linguistically, but are unified through their adherence to Sunni Islam of the Shafi'i school.
 * 13) Commonly, many sub-groups of Bajau are named after the place or island they live-in for many years.
 * 14) Eventhough, they are called Bajau, each sub-groups has they own unique language, cultures and tradition.
 * 15) However, certain sub-groups are able to understand the languages of other sub-groups and races.
 * 16) Claims to religious piety and learning are an important source of individual prestige among the coastal Bajau, and the title of salip/sarip (descendants of the Prophet Muhammad) are shown special honour in the local community.
 * 17) The Ubian Bajau, due to their nomadic marine lifestyle, are much less adherent to orthodox Islam, and practice more of a folk hybrid, revering local sea spirits, known in Islamic terminology as Jinn.
 * 18) Many Bajaus of the east coast retain their seaborne lifestyle, together with remnants of traditional pre-Islamic beliefs.
 * 19) Among the boat-dwellers in particular, community spirit mediums are consulted at least once a year for a public séance and nightly trance dancing.
 * 20) In times of epidemics, the mediums are also called upon to remove illness causing spirits from the community.
 * 21) They do this by setting a "spirit boat" adrift in the open sea beyond the village or anchorage.


 * As I am not an expert, please kindly decide the fate of Myanmar Muslim Pashus (sorry some may hate to read as another sub-group of Myanmar Muslim).
 * Are they still related to Moken? Bajau? Or non existent ghosts people?
 * But you could not close the eyes and refuse to accept that there is no such people there in Myanmar.
 * Whether they are recognized as Ethnic group or not, they are there.No one could cleanse them (and all the different groups of Muslims of Myanmar) out of Myanmar. Issue of recognization as the different ethnolinguistic group is for your academic paper work but we all are in Myanmar whether you recognize or not. And Wiki must record some where, even if you wish to record us as illegal mix-blooded people, echoing the dictator General Ne Win.--Darz kkg (talk) 14:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

--Darz kkg (talk) 14:06, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

There are three groups of Bajau according to the New Straits Time, Malaysia’s English newspaper published in early 90’s. I copied and recorded the facts but was quite ignorant to note down the date and author.

These three groups of Bajau are_
 * 1) The Moken and the related Moklen group.
 * 2) Orang Laut (Sea People).
 * 3) Bajau Laut.

Myanmar citizens of Malays are the Moken and the related Moklen group. They are found in the Mergui Archipelago of Myanmar and the islands of south western part of Thailand.

One of the other two subtypes are the Orang Laut (Sea People) are seen in Riau-Lingga Archipelago, Batam, Eastern Sumatera of Indonesia and Southern Johore of Malaysia.

The last group is the Bajau Laut, largest of all groups, live in Sulu Archipelago of the Philippines, eastern Bornio, Sulawesi and islands of eastern Indonesia.

Pashu in Myanmar is likely to be the corrupted word (or a different slang) in Myanmar language from- Bajau. That Bajau tribe is the largest Muslim indigenous group in Sabah (East Malaysia). They are known as Sea Gypsies or Sea Nomads.

Malays in Myanmar or (called Pashu of Burma), are almost same as but a little bit different from the Malays in Southern Thailand, East and West Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Philippines and Indonesia.

So the Pashu Muslims of Myanmar are likely to be from the Muslim-Moken and are related to Moklen group of Bajau.

So what should we do? To sumup the above, evidences of Burmese Malay Muslims or Pashu in Myanmar are_
 * 1) Shift the whole Moken article under Bajau? Not appropriate as some Moken are non Muslims and Bajau are all Muslims. (See Wiki. Anthropologists should argue there that the religion should not create a new race. )
 * 2) Then is it appropriate to merge Moken into Bajau?
 * 3) Or need to take out Myanmar Pashu Muslims from this Moken article and put under Bajau article?
 * 4) Or just reinstate my original article Myanmar Malay Muslims or Pashu article merged here and ERASED?
 * 1) Letter/article, published in the Sun newspaper, Malaysia on May 28, 2007.
 * 2) Maung-Ko Ghaffari was the Chief Editor of The Islam Alin (Light of Islam) magazine published in Yangon, wrote that and given me the consent to republish.
 * 3) “Our Pashu People”, published by Colonel Ba Shin, Chairman of the Burma Historical Commission and Secretary General of the Islamic Religious Affairs Council. Burma/Myanmar.
 * 4) Pashu Khaung Phyat bogyman meaning Bajau headhunter is well known in Burma.
 * 5) Ancient Myanmar/Burmese used to call the Malays as Pashu, it may refer possibly to Malay but now we all call Malay a Malay.
 * 6) In the Glass Palace Chronicle, official history of Burma, there is the story of Alaunsithu, grandson of Kyansittha (Second Burmese King in History). Reported to had arrived Pashu/Malaya. One of the spectator child fell into the sea, drowned and saved by a sailor of Alaunsithu. (I will search back the book and give the reference page later.)
 * 7) Kin Won Min Gyi, the Minister of our last king, Thibaw, went to Europe through Malaya and recorded the appearances, culture, dressings of PASHUS. (I will search and give the references later)
 * 8) The New Straits Time, Malaysia’s English newspaper published in early 90’s about Bajau, which I recorded above. It may be difficult to trace back.
 * 9) And another article written by Datuk Kadir Jasin, Chief Editor of The New Straits Time, Malaysia’s English newspaper, after he followed the PM Tun Dr Mahathier’s first visit to Burma/Myanmar.He wrote about the Muslims in Burma, including these Pashu Malays of Burma and even mentioned about early arrival of Islam in Burma starting from Byat Wi, Byatta, Shwe Phyin brothers etc. (Datuk Kadir Jasin later became the Malaysia Government news agency, Bernama’s chief and now retired.)--Darz kkg (talk) 16:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Post Script


 * 1) If those Malay descendants (Muslims) want to migrate back (according to unconfirmed rumours) there was even a special scheme to accept them back in 70’s. They were rehabilitated or debriefed in the special camps for just two weeks only and said to be given blue IC or full citizenship, according to the unconfirmed reports. There are rumours that at the present time they need to stay in camp for two years to get the same status. They were taught or brushed up the Malay language, culture and religious rights. If they accidentally speak Burmese, they were said to be punished. But Burmese Muslims who have sharp nose are rejected to be accepted in the camp as their features shown that they are related to Indian subcontinent and the Pashu Muslims of Myanmar look like pure Burmese who are strikingly similar to pure Malays.
 * 2) Many of them had relatives in Kedah and some in other northern states of Malaysia. Up to now there are some blood and family relations across the border.Darz kkg (talk) 17:31, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that you may have a problem with nomenclature. The correct article for Muslims in Burma is Islam in Burma. Please don't conflate ethnicity and religion.  There is an existing article about the Orang laut. There is an existing article about the Bajau.  It is not appropriate to merge  Moken into Bajau.  They are different ethnically.  I don't seem to understand exactly what you are driving at, but your edits here are not appropriate, I mave moved them below for discussion.  Are you interested in developing the section on History in the Islam in Burma article?  Please don't conflate ethnicity and religion. Be aware that not everyone uses words in the same way.  As this is the English Wikipedia, we strive to use words as native English speakers do.  Also, discussions of ethnic groups are best done using academic sources, not original research and newspaper articles.  --Bejnar (talk) 22:47, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Edits by Darz kkg
On 5 January 2008, [User:Darz kkg|Darz kkg]] added to the "Way of Life" section the following information which is inconsistent with published academic sources about the Moken. They may refer to another people entirely. --Bejnar (talk) 23:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * In the southern tip of Myanmar in Myeik district of Taninthayi Division, a sizable number of Pashu (Bajou) people have lived since time immemorial. They are of the Malay race.


 * They speak Malay and some of their elderly members can read Jawi, Malay language written in Arabic Script. (Modern Malay is also written in Roman Script). Concentrated in Bokpyin township and villages around it and many sprawling islands in the Bay of Bengal, they learn a livelihood through fishing, pearl diving, agriculture and various trades.


 * They speak Myanmar with a strong Myeik ( Beik ) accent, and many can talk in Bahasa Melayu also. They have commercial links with south Thailand and north Malaysia. In Kawthaung the southernmost town of Myanmar, across Ranong in south Thailand, there are many mosques, including a large Pashu mosque. There are some Pashus who have intermarried with other Burmese Muslims and some of their youths have taken up modern Myanmar education./Begin ref/Maung-Ko Ghaffari, Yangon, Myanmar’s letter/article, published in the Sun newspaper, Malaysia on May 28, 2007. He gives me this newspaper photocopy with the permission for reproduction and circulation consent duly signed. He was the Chief Editor of The Islam Alin (Light of Islam) magazine published in Yangon. He cited or referred to the, “Our Pashu People”, published by Colonel Ba Shin, Chairman of the Burma Historical Commission and Secretary General of the Islamic Religious Affairs Council. Burma/Myanmar./end ref/


 * I suggest that before these Pashu are added to this article, that an academic citation be provided. I strongly suspect that the Pashu are not the same as the Moken and are not the same as the Bajau, but without adequate reliable published sources, the information should not be added anywhere. --Bejnar (talk) 23:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I here by copy Bejnar (talk)’s words posted in my talk page as I found out that he had forgotten to add these important facts in the Talk:Moken place.


 * "In researching I have found part of the problem. Pashu is just the local name in Kawthaung for people of Malay ancestry. It is also used to describe the mixed Malay-Burmese-Thai patois that many of them speak. Sometimes the word Pashu is also applied to the Moken as they are related to the Malays. An example of usage is the local Kawthaung name for Pterocarpus indicus or pashu-padauk while in English it is sometimes called Malay padauk. Pashu has nothing to do with religion, but that could be confusing since the Malay are more likely to be Muslim than the Burmese or Thai." --Bejnar (talk) 18:06, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 * TQ again for the information but I am fed up with the way Wikipedia editors treated others who had contributed important facts for the benefit of others. So I am staying away to avoid tensions and arguments.


 * Proof (or reference for Wiki) = Just look at the tags in my Islam in Burma, Burmese Indians, Panthays or Burmese Chinese Muslim articles. I took those as an insult. You should edit to Wikify those or correct if I am wrong but don’t just insult others like this.


 * Most of you act like or sound like or look like real professionals.
 * Then if you all are not sure of Pashu/Moklen why one of the Wiki editors merge my Myanmar Malay Muslims or Malay Muslims in Burma article into the Moken article and then ERASED later?
 * If there were unacceptable facts or wrong facts, just correct them.
 * Why it is all right to erase my whole article? Is there any remedy or punishment for those IRRESPONSIBLE WIKI EDITORS? Darz kkg (talk) 08:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

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term sea gypsies
I tried to make an edit on another page but messed up my citation/it was reverted/waiting for clarification from that admin to make sure that the revert was due to my formatting /check in on content before attempting to make the same change anywhere else:

but the term "sea gypsy" is used in a few places on this article: gypsy is a slur for the Romani people. I think it'd be good to clarify that the term is considered a slur in most contexts-- but acknowledge its usage

(something along these lines would be my suggestion) gypsy (is a slur and shouldn't be used regularly but is left for historical linguistic context)

Kizemet (talk) 06:23, 12 August 2020 (UTC)kizemet