Talk:Moldovan language/Archive 13

Now then
This article needs to change. Don't ask what I mean, or what parts I want to change, if you've ever edited this article before, you know very well which parts I am talking about. Bogdangiusca seems to think he has a monopoly on this page. He does not. He is not entitled to revert everybody else's edits as he wishes. He acts as if the current version is canon. It isn't.

Now, in the history of this article, it's clear that the current version was not formed by a consensus of opposing parties, but rather, a consensus of one side of the argument. --Node 06:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * There are no two parties. We have you vs. everyone else. bogdan 07:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No -- we have me, vs Romanians. There are other parties (such as Oleg Alexandrov, Khoikhoi, Francis Tyers), but none of them have been involved as much as they would need to be to keep this from being a one-sided debate. --Node 00:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Ummm, you can count me out, I don't mean to offend you or anything. The thing is, the whole reason "people" like Bonaparte came here in the first place is because of the conflict on this page. I suggest we just leave it as it is. &mdash; Khoikhoi 00:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think that's a good argument. Nobody said achieving NPOV would be easy, did they? But isn't that our ultimate goal? You seem to recognize that the currentversion isn't NPOV, but think we should leave it as it is so as not to attract trolls. I suppose it would make more sense to wait for more Moldovans so the fight can be Moldovans vs Moldovans rather than Romanians vs Node. --Node


 * If you want Moldovans, then here I am. Vox Populi (TSO) 01:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That's "moldoveni", Tso1d. More than one. A horde. Fetch us a horde of Moldovans! --Node 05:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)`
 * Well, there aren't that many on Wikipedia. In any case, I agree that we should not modify the article right now as that would only create another endless battle. TSO1D 13:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, Node goes again with "everybody who goes against me is certainly not from Republic of Moldova thingie ?", he just keeps forgetting... --Just a tag
 * You aren't a real Moldovan, colleague. You, little man, are just like like a transformer -- a robot in disguise. --Node 07:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I now begin to wonder who's that mythical beast - the REAL moldovan, is it like Neo from the Matrix ? As for being like a bot, you know, some people call it living a life outside of computers and wikipedias, try pondering on that for a while ;) ---Just a tag 09:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * So who's the second "moldovan"? It seems to me that you are alone in Category:User_mo . Dpotop 17:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Node you shouldn't say stuff like "No -- we have me, vs Romanians". This makes it look like you see this thing as a quest by you against the Romanians and it does not help your argument because it makes you seem very POV against Romanians and not an objective Wikipedian. But, like you said, maybe we should wait a little for some Moldovans to start getting themselves involved here - and I don't just mean people of mixed ancestry who grew up their whole lives in the USA and who cannot speak the language fluently (or in retrospect to be fair, Moldvoans from the Romanian part of Moldova who likewise do not know what things are like on the other side of the Pruth). This debate should be done by actual Moldovans from there, that have seen the situation on the ground there, and have lived there and know exactly what they are talking about - because as far as the rest of us goes we all have preconceived ideas of what this article should look like. As far as my personal experience goes, I have visited Moldova and I can tell you, Moldovans are as different from each other as they are from the rest of the world : you can find super-Romanians there and you can find the biggest Romanian-haters in that little country. Dapiks 00:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * When are you going to stop hating Moldovans? --Node 07:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Nobody hates Moldovans buddy, just little immature brats ( I am not pointing fingers to anyone). Dapiks 20:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * That is a clear personal attack. Please retract it. --Node 02:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Good to see things haven't changed much here. Winona Gone Shopping 03:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Stati's interview
I was trying to find Vasile Stati's interview to read it again, and I see the external link to the interview is no longer listed in the article. Or did I miss it? Finally I found it on the internet here. If it's really missing from the article I suggest we link it again.

And the main question: In this interview Stati says that Romanian and Moldovan, in their literary forms, are identical. Why does the article say that Stati disputes this?

Stati's exact statement was: "Incontestabil, forma literară, cea mai elevată a limbii moldoveneşti, forma cultă, prelucrată de scriitori şi lingvişti, este identică cu forma literară a limbii româneşti." — Adi Japan   ☎  10:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Moldovans wanted! :)
I'll give a barnstar to any person that points me to a native Moldovan language speaker on wikipedia. I'll also support him, were he/she wishing to become admin on the Moldovan wikipedia. Dpotop 09:00, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Note: the previous offer is meant to show that no such thing as a "Moldovan" speaker exists on the whole wikipedia. Dpotop 09:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Marcu Gabinschi
I never heard of him. Khoikhoi, do you have an exact citation of his affirmations? bogdan 21:33, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * According to this, he wrote a book called "Reconvergence of Moldavian towards Romanian", which inclines me to believe that he has the Moldovanist views on the language. I also found something in Romanian, from this PDF:


 * În cartea Limba şi politica în Republica Moldova articolele au fost publicate în ordinea cronologică a apariţei lor. Studiul Limba şi naţunea în Republica Moldova n-a fost publicat în original ci a fost trimis pentru editare la Chişinău, în traducerea lui Marcu Gabinschi. Articolul Limba şi literatura în Basarabia şi Transnistria a fost retipărit în traducerea lui Grigore Chiper în 1991 în trei numere ale Revistei de lingvistică şi ştiinţă literară. Articolul Eminescu în Republica Moldova este reprodus după textul apărut în trei numere ale revistei Limba română (Chişinău) din 1995, fără a se indica dacă acesta a fost sau nu publicat în limba germană în traducerea lui Florin Manolescu. Articolele Româna: Moldoveneasca şi Moldoveneasca sub semnul restructurării şi al publicaţei au fost traduse de Marcu Gabinschi.


 * I have a feeling, however, that the above might prove me wrong. If so, please don't laugh at me. :p &mdash; Khoikhoi 23:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Hm... Well, that "Reconvergence of Moldavian towards Romanian" probably refers to the local spoken dialects, not the official language. You know, like how they had the word "curechi" for "cabbage" and now it's more commonly used "varză", from standard Romanian. bogdan 08:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Bogdan, I cited this text before to you, it refers exactly to the official language. --Node 01:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, I'll do some more research. What did the Romanian text say? &mdash; Khoikhoi 08:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Nothing much, it just lists the articles/books.
 * In the book "Language and politics in Rep. Mold.", the articles were published in chronological order. The study "Language and nation in Rep. Mold." was not published in its original form, but was sent for editing to Chişinău, in the translation of Marcu Gabinschi... etc.
 * bogdan 14:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

There are 11 Archives above. Don't open another war Khoikhoi. --Just a tag 2 20:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Banned as impostor impersonating User:Just a tag. bogdan 20:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Russianism
there is a new article created, Russianism. Please update it with examples from Moldovan langauge. `'mikka (t) 23:13, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The current version of the article seems to be fair
I am a person who lives in Chisinau (the capital of Moldova); I speak Romanian, so I might be the guy "from Moldova who hangs out on Wikipedia" you were looking for.

My opinion is that the article is fair*, because it emphasizes that there is a lot of controversy on the topic. Perhaps this is the optimal solution that can be reached at this point. You need to understand that this is an tricky discussion point inside the country, and as long as there is no consensus in Moldova, it is likely that this Wikipedia discussion will keep consuming our valuable time in vain.

Why is it still a dispute after more than 10 years of independence? This is a consequence of Russia's aggressive 'rusification' policy.

Has anyone read Orwell's "1984"? If so, then you must be familiar with the strategy which involves the complete re-write of all printed material, so that it matches the new 'facts'. That's exactly what happened here throughout the years - the alphabete was changed, history books were altered, people were deported, etc. It takes time to recover from that, and it takes even longer if Russia's strong grip is still felt. Economically, Russia's decisions can have a negative impact on Moldova's stability, so we are still constrained in our freedom (political, military, economical).

As a Moldovan who is dedicated to his country, I would extend the article by making it more pro-Romanian; but that would of course bring life back into the zealots who are on the other side of the barricades, resulting in another holy war.

If anybody has doubts about my really being a citizen of Moldova, you can call a +373 number (this is our code) I can provide, or I can call you myself and hope that your caller ID works right.

I should also add that I speak Russian (it was my first language), I lived in Ukraine, Russia, Romania (and some other states which aren't in this area, so mentioning them is not relevant), and now I am a resident of Chisinau. I believe this allows me to see the big picture.

You might be interested why there aren't many 'authentic moldovans' contributing; I can't tell for sure, but my best guess is that others have problems to handle (get a job, get a decent education, etc), so spending time on the Internet is not something which directly contributes to these primary objectives. People have other priorities at the moment; if you take a look at Maslow's pyramid, you'll understand what I mean.

Gr8dude 22:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Moldovan language doesn't exist
I also live in Chisinau, Moldova and speak Romainian as my native language. It's very sad to know that people want us to be considered as different nation from Romanians. You can call my number too, if you want to be sure that I'm telling the truth. 326 19:02, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It does, as long as it is mentioned in the Moldavian consitution. INTERNAZI 12:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

A Moldavian professor
Interesting info from POSTICA GHEORGHE: CIVILIZATIA MEDIEVALA TIMPURIE DIN SPATIUL PRUTO-NISTREAN (SECOLELE V-XIII) is found here. The first chapter has a lot of info which could be used on the Moldovan language article (e.g. the fact that, due to political reasons, as to expand their influence in Romania, the Soviets at actually supported the Moldovan-Romanian equality in the beggining, and only later, after WW2, they switched to the "Moldovan" theory instead...) Greier 11:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

ro.wp article
I was surprised, last time I checked the corresponding article at ro.wp, it actually seemed more neutral and more well-researched than the en.wp article. Granted, there is a little bit of bias, with a generalised Russophobic tilt, but it's pretty mild. I've made a loose adaptation here.

Two major ongoing issues are:


 * How do we refer to Transnistria? We can use the pro-Moldavian phrasage "unrecognized territory" or "seperatist region", which hides the fact that it is de facto independent and excercises control over most (if not all) of the territory it claims, or we can use the pro-independence phraseage "de facto independent state" or "self-governing territory", which do not explicitly mention that it is not internationally recognised. We could of course mention that it is already de facto independent but is not internationally recognised de jure, but that is too wordy, after all this article is not about Transnistria. I personally favour "disputed region", but that does not acknowledge the challenges many people here have levelled against the authority or the relevance of the separatist government (although it is undeniable that they have the basic organs of statehood, and those organs operate fully, including a parliament, a constitutional court, and to the best of my knowledge, they tax their citizens and operate a police force)
 * How do we refer to the Soviet period? Was it an occupation or not? Many sentimental unionists would like to demonize the USSR and call it an occupation, but it's not that clear-cut. --Node 23:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * For the discussion on Transnistria, we are having the same debate at Transnistria if you want to take a look, so I'm not sure what to say at this point. As for whether the term occupation is justified or not might, this may be challanged by the complex legal situation of the period, however it is still the best term to use for that period and most modern historical sources refer to it as such. TSO1D 00:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That sounds indeed much better to me, though it lacks the description of the usage of cyrillic. Could someone read/translate that article aswell, to get all POVs? The German wikipedia has a nice neutral seeming article on topic. I'll translate it if anyone 'd ask!INTERNAZI 13:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

To newcomers: I suggest not taking Node lightly. The guy may simply want to re-ignite the edit war here. For those who want to talk about WP:AGF, take a look at edits one year old. I presume the only way to switch this is to make a full parallel adit, and then, when everybody has agreed upon all details, replace it. Dpotop 19:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Dpotop, that is a clear personal attack. I would RPA, but then I would be accused of censorship. If you think that I ever did anything just because I "enjoy edit warring", think again. No matter how crazy you think I have acted, it was all for the purpose of making this article better. --Node 20:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, while you were absent, the article matured fairly well, in the exact direction proposed by moderated editors during the edit wars of a year ago. Dpotop 21:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how that's relevant. By the way, the article barely changed at all since then, and lots of the poorly-researched text added by Bonaparte was still intact until very recently. --Node 17:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Moldovan pronunciation questions
I get a daily news program ("Curier") from Moldova's NIT television on my cable TV system. Two questions:


 * The main announcer consistently pronounces "2008" as "două mii uopt". Is "uopt" a Moldovan regionalism?  In other contexts, as best I can tell, this announcer says "opt"; I've only heard the "uopt" pronunciation when she says "2008".  She's said it very clearly, and on numerous separate occasions, so I'm confident that I wasn't just hearing things and that it wasn't just an accidental slip of the tongue on her part.


 * Yes, "uopt" is the regional way of pronouncing "opt" (it's still written "opt", though). It's specific to the whole Moldavia (Rep. of Moldova and the Romanian part), with varying degrees. What was funny when I visited Chisinau was that the peasants in the market spoke Romanian without accent. :) Dpotop 06:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Everyone on NIT pronounces the network's name as /ɛn.aɪ'ti/ — the way an English speaker would pronounce the letters. Any idea why they don't use the Romanian pronunciations of the initials?


 * In Moldova and in Romania it is often fashionable to have a name with an English or German sound. For instance, the brand "Orange" (the French-based cell phone operator) is pronounced as in English. I presume that the customers get an impression of seriousness (for the German brands) or power (for the American ones) out of this. And, as you know, brands are used today as a way of defining your self-image. It's stupid, but people work like this. Dpotop 06:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Richwales 05:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Rich, it would be interesting for you to find out how she pronounces the word două in the same 2008. If she says duouă then she probably does that in all instances of vowel /o/, at least when stressed (the vowel, not the announcer...). If not, she might be pronouncing that way only after vocalic sounds or at the word beginning. It is a known fact that, especially in Moldova (on both sides), vowel /o/ pronounced in certain situations more or less as /wo/ or /ʷo/. The same happens in all Romanian-speaking areas, but it can be less obvious. Here are some factors that contribute to the intensity of the effect:
 * Region, with the strongest effect in Moldova and the weakest probably in Wallachia.
 * The age of the word in Romanian. Old words such as om, ochi, os are usually pronounced with a stronger /w/, while neologisms like ohm, oftalmologie, osteoporoză tend to be pronounced with a rather pure /o/.
 * Position in the word. Most affected are the initial positions, like in opt, compared to copt.
 * Phonetic context. When it follows after another vowel, /o/ needs to be "insulated" with a /w/ to avoid confusion and to allow an easier pronunciation.
 * Stress. Unstressed /o/ doesn't usually become a diphthong, instead it sometimes tends to close towards /u/. For example the word cocoş might be pronounced in Moldova as /ku'kwoʃ/.
 * Speaker. Educated speakers avoid pronouncing /wo/, some of them only in neologisms, while others avoid it in all words. Uneducated speakers might pronounce /wo/ just about everywhere, including neologisms they may need to say.
 * Quite a similar effect is found in all vowels, actually. Even /a/ is heard sometimes as /əa/. For more details and examples check out ro:Fonologia limbii române --- a work in progress though. The part you're looking for is the section "Alofonele vocalelor".
 * This information comes form Fonologia limbii române, by Emanuel Vasiliu (1965). I don't have access to newer works, but I am told that things haven't changed significantly since.
 * About NIT: I don't know what the acronym actually means. If the name is made up of English words, then that's it. Only in rare cases are English acronyms read with a Romanian pronunciation; an example is NATO, which is pronounced /'na.to/, not /'nej.tow/; but MTV, CNN, BBC follow the rule "English acronym - English pronunciation" and the same normally goes for other languages too: KGB in Russian, ZDF in German, UMP in French. If NIT comes from Romanian words then pronouncing it à l'anglaise is pure snobbery, as Dpotop pointed out. — Adi Japan   ☎  09:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Adi. I'll do some more careful listening to this announcer and see if I can identify how she pronounces "două" and other words with "o".  She appears to be an educated native speaker in her 30's, and I haven't noticed any other deviations from "standard" pronunciation in her speech (though please remember that my command of Romanian is still at an elementary stage, and it doesn't help much that the news announcers all seem to talk as fast as humanly possible!).  As for the abbreviation "NIT", my web searching suggests it stands for "Noile Idei Televizate" — I'll check the closing credits of the news broadcasts again and see if that phrase appears anywhere in the fine print.  The opening title sequence of NIT's news program includes written phrases in Romanian, Russian, and English.  Richwales 16:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Another case, more impressive than "o" is "e". Try "mere" (apples) and "miere" (honey). When those that speak Moldovan dialect say "apples", those from Bucharest always understand "honey". Then the latter ask the former to say "honey", after which they make big eyes. A word for which you can see people fall is "el" (he), which obviously is a basic and often used word. Ask people to start a sentense with "El..." ("He..") and see the difference. If one knows to speak both dialects, one might be able to hide "el" in the quick sequence of words (sometimes they do it on purpose so that you won't recongnise the dialect!) But with the starting "El" - it becomes obvious. About abreviations. In fact, it is just a matter of standards between Moldova and Romania, something like talking in km/miles. There is no official way in Moldova. Hence logically they should use the standard Romanian one. Yet, many people dislike to say "le", "me", "re", etc. Hence at every occasion, the jump to say it the other way around. Another observation: when children are taught geometry in secondary school, they do not say "le", "me", "re", but "el", "em", "er" etc, not only in Moldova, but even in Romania. And last observation: there is a rule in Romanian, to write and read as in the orriginal. Many (unlike you) don't even know what NIT stands for, they assume it is English! :Dc76 20:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Note that the pronouns el, ea, ei, ele, and eu (except in philosophic contexts where it means the ego, the self), and the verbs este, era etc. are normally pronounced with an initial [j] not only in Moldova, but by all Romanians. See DEX 1998, DOOM 2005, Dicţionarul ortografic 2002. It is true though that the quantity of that [j] is different from speaker to speaker, and that it tends to be more audible in Moldovans' speech. But I wouldn't use it as a definite distinction between idioms. There are better ways to tell a Moldovan from a non-Moldovan (if that really is the purpose), and the pronunciation of mere is indeed one of them.
 * I must also point out that this page is not a good place for a phonetics subject, because the "Moldovan language" is not a linguistically recognized entity, it is only the official name of the Romanian language in the Republic of Moldova. This article is about politics. The Moldovan idiom does indeed exist as a regional speech of Romanian, but it is also found in the Romanian part of Moldova. — Adi Japan   ☎  03:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * True and true.:Dc76 15:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Map
The only problem with the map that I see is a small one in Chernivtsi oblast (see the map in that article). Leave the other regions appart. :Dc76 18:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * now tell me really, do you think that nobody speaks in Covasna Romanian? or in Harghita? there are more than 15% Romanians, what are they speaking?--Tones benefit 18:02, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There are 20% Romanians in Harghita and 35% in Covasna. But the map does not excludes all of these counties - northern Harghita is not, and so on. But if you blank all of it red or blue, it is like there are no Hunagrians at all there. Maybe one should make a more detailed map - village by village. That's a different story.:Dc76 18:57, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Dc, do hungarian speak romanian or not? if they do what variant? all people speak Romanian better or less they do. There has to be no hole in the middle. That's ridiculous to have a hole even if there are like you said 35% Romanians.--Tones benefit 19:02, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Look, people speak Romanian in America as well. I thought all here was about mother tongue. Ask more users, if they agree with you, I won't oppose. I only think is not wise to start an edit war b/c of this: the only thing you will achive at this point is to block yourself. You can edit other articles, and even this one, or you can get blocked and not edit even this map. You can not change overnight everything that you believe is not correct on WP. Better even, find a map in some sourse. I am sure that should be some maps online or in books.:Dc76 19:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually this map has several problems. It is supposed to represent the Romanian idioms, wherever they are spoken. Even if Romanian speakers in Harghita and Covasna are few, the map should show what Romanian idiom is spoken there. A hole in the map means that Romanian is not spoken there at all, by anyone. Covering that region with blue or red doesn't say anything about Hungarian being spoken or not, because this is not a map of Hungarian distribution. Languages overlap, as you know, and this map is only supposed to show the Romanian layer. Also, separating the Romanian idioms in just two kinds is at least an oversimplification; nothing is mentioned about the criteria of distinguishing those two idioms. But the really big problem with this map is that the sources used for drawing it are not specified. It could very well be original research. — Adi Japan   ☎  03:11, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * That's exactly my point. Anyone willing to make it better or should I make it myself? --Tones benefit 10:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow, AdiJapan! Yesterday I abstained from writing the exact same thing. We have had this discussion a long time ago (when the picture was first made). I didn't want to be called a Nationalist again. Dpotop 10:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Now, that you said it, I'd like to point out another inconsistency of the map: It gives no color for Harghita and Covasna (because RO is a minority there), but gives a color for large regions in Serbia. However, the last time I looked into Serbian Vlachs, they are not an official majority, even on Timok Valley. I therefore feel that the current map is not meeting any standard. Dpotop 10:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I do agree with you that we should have a map for all regions where Romanians/Moldovans/Vlachs are a historic presence. Majority or not, it's another map, or can be marked with another sign (for instance, using "hasurare"). But do you know how to make a map? Dpotop 10:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I will do it. Anyway, another editor was just blocked because he had conflicts with Russians like Alaexis and Miika. His name is Sosomk.--Tones benefit 10:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with being Nationalist or not. If the purpose of this map is to show the idiom distribution of the Romanian language then it should have some color in every little village that is inhabited by Romanian speakers. Of course, there must be some threshold, such as 1% or 10% of the population, otherwise you'd have to put Japan on the map too...

The difficult problem, if one wants to remake the map, is not the numbers of Romanian speakers living in every region --- this is rather easy to get ---, but the idiom they speak. The term idiom itself is a rather fuzzy concept, because depending on the criteria you get different maps. For example I see the current map puts Sibiu and Braşov in the southern idiom (not sure if it was meant to be the Oltenian or the Muntenian), but there are parameters, such as the intonation, which set those two cities clearly in the Transylvanian group of idioms. Unfortunately I don't have access to such linguistic data and I have no idea where to look for them --- most probably they're still not on the internet. — Adi Japan   ☎  16:00, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * That's true. So, we need to eventually find a better sourse with a better map. :Dc76 17:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Differences
Are there any lexical difference between Romanian and Moldovan (and not just Russianisms)? --AimLook 16:26, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The Eu does not recognizes Moldovan as an official language
It seems that the EU is now recognizing Moldovan as an official language. The likes of *a** have won. We can also thank our Muntenian administration for fucking it up; and also a great thank you to that fucking idiot, Leonard Orban, who is supposed to be a linguist of some sort. So let us spare us the pain and remove all sources that refer to the Romanian language and give them their own language box. --Thus Spake Anittas 17:31, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, don't be so fast in calling it Muntenian. Chiuaru, for instance, is from Iasi, and Orban is Transylvanian. It's just a simple case of all-Romanian incompetence. That said, it's quite unbelievable. Isn't the ministry supposed to have fool-proof procedures for specific cases (such as checking for "moldovan language" shit in all Moldova-related documents)? Dpotop 17:41, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The EU probably recognized the name of the language as Moldovan, but that does not mean that they say that the two languages differ from one another, but it still pisses me off. That Orban idiot should be fired on the spot, as well as the other retards. --Thus Spake Anittas 19:40, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree. That said, I hate Basescu's populist and authoritarian approach even more. I really don't know what can be done at this point. Upto now the liberals seemed to be the better lot, but it seems it was just an impression. Dpotop 12:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * This is not Romania's fault, and neither is it the fault of Leonard Orban. The name of Moldova's official language is "Moldovan", and thus when the EU signs agreements with Moldova, it is normal that the copy in that country's official language is labelled "Moldovan". Of course, this will bring up a greater can of worms if Moldova joins the EU. Ronline ✉ 10:17, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course it's the fault of the Romanian government and (among others) Orban. The Greeks even managed to force a country to change its name (FYROM). Not to mention Bulgaria (cf. http://www.ziua.ro/prt.php?id=228041&data=2007-10-16). Nobody forces us to accept more than the moldovan themselves (which talk about "the language of the state"). Dpotop 16:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * BTW, it was a problem, recognized by Orban himself (cf. http://www.gandul.info/actualitatea/orban-au-modificate-site-ul-referirile-limba-moldoveneasca.html?3927;962484). Dpotop 16:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, but I don't think Greece, Bulgaria and Poland are pursuing the right path. Bickering with the EU and appearing to be nationalistic for what are some very petty and symbolic reasons is not a good foreign policy move. Their inflexibility hasn't done any good to the image of those countries, and I don't think Romania should be heading down that path. Furthermore, Orban is not representing Romania in his role as Commissioner for Multilingualism; thus, he does not have to account to the Romanian public for his actions. Ronline ✉ 11:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The EU is not here to fulfill the dreams of some civil rights activists. It is here to advance the interests of its member states and citizens, as perceived by them (and not as imagined by the aforementioned civil rights groups). This is why France, the UK, Poland, Greece, Bulgaria a.s.o. are all right in demanding and obtaining what they see as their due. Dpotop 14:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As to image issues, I feel that Poles care more about practical advantages they get from the EU and the US than the lip service of the EU bureacracy. In the end, Poland will be more respected and feared, will get more votes w.r.t. its population (as it happened), a.s.o. And will not depend on the whim of some bureaucrat, as Romania does with all its political correctness. As a joke: Two years ago or so, there was in France a scare about the Polish plumber, that will get the work of the French. The Poles made fun of the French publicly, instead of playing it soft. In the end, they fare better and are better accepted. Maybe Romania should be more aggressive. Dpotop 14:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * To the list of inflexible countries you should also add France (agriculture) and the UK (everything), and I presume many other. BTW, it seems Poland and Italy got what they wanted. Dpotop 14:08, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As to Orban: He is incompetent. Your defence would have worked, should he not have acknowledged publicly that something was not right. But he did. And by recognizing his mistake, he also answered to his constituancy (remember that he is there because he is Romanian). Dpotop 14:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The "aggressive" negotiating stance with the EU would work, perhaps, for the more established members of the Union. However, in the case of countries such as Poland, the result is not that they are respected or feared as such, but rather that they are derided as being inflexible and stubborn. There is still somewhat of a negative perception of the new member states in the European Union. Conforming to that negative perception by portraying oneself as inflexible or insensitive, as Poland has done, will not do anything to improve image. And then people wonder why the "Eastern states" are looked down upon within the union. The solution for Romania is to behave professionally and in a way which shows insight, outward orientation and leadership, rather than inward orientation and provincialism (which it hasn't done so far, mind you). It's only in that way that it can gain the respect of the other EU members. Ronline ✉ 02:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Again, Ronline: Do you think Poland cares for being "looked down upon"? My impression is that they get everything important they want. This is solid and concrete. Of course the others hate this success, but who cares? As for critics. 4 years ago Poland was looked down upon in the French press. This is no longer the case. Poland is now accepted as a hard player, and respected as such. Criticised for its clericalism and conservatism, but never whined upon. Dpotop 07:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As for Romania: Romanians have a provincial complex and would accept any shit for some tap on the shoulder. You might have seen in the real world that hard work never gets you respect unless you're brilliant. Being a hard player does it. Dpotop 07:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not an expert on the EU, but if the more established countries don't work as a model for the other countries, and go as far as insulting them and as you say, looking down on them, then I don't think that the new countries will be motivated to stay content. Countries such as the Netherlands, England, and France have at one time or another, committed themselves to such tactics. If they didn't want the new countries joining the EU so soon--or at all, then they should have used their veto. The price of joining the EU shouldn't be to have to endure to be picked on and in politics, politicians also do what they think will make them more popular at home, so often you will see a politician standing up or criticizing the EU, to gain political favor at home. --Thus Spake Anittas 02:37, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Legally, the name of Moldova's official language is presented in three different ways: So, you need to label the language accordingly. Legally, you can not just say the way you like. Legally, you have to say: "This is a copy in English, this is a copy in Moldovan, Romanian, and Moldovan with the existence of a a Moldo-Romanian linguistic identity, and this is a copy I french." If you say otherwise, it is assumed that you abreviate, so still legally correct. But then Romania could ask that a certain way to do that abreviation be removed as Soviet propaganda. Orban did not oppose it, because it was an issue that mattered to Basescu, and he wanted to hurt him.:Dc76\talk 00:08, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Moldovan" (article 13 of the 1994 Constitution)
 * "Romanian" (1991 Declaration of Independence)
 * "Moldovan, with the existence of a Moldo-Romanian linguistic identity" (1989 Law of Oddicial Language)
 * Okay, enough with insulting Orban. Dahn loves the guy and we don't want to hurt Dahn's feelings, or he may hit us with links and reports. --Thus Spake Anittas 00:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

EU does not recognize Moldovan as language
http://www.adevarul.ro/articole/orban-a-eliminat-limba-moldoveneasca-de-pe-site-ul-comisiei-europene/329489

Orban a eliminat “limba moldovenească” de pe site-ul Comisiei Europene de Marius Vulpe (718 afisari, 2007-10-20) Referirile la limba moldovenească existente pe site-ul Comisiei Europene au fost modificate a declarat, ieri, comisarul european pentru multilingvism, Leonard Orban (foto). Pe viitor va avea loc un proces de monitorizare pentru a evita repetarea acestor situaţii, a mai precizat Orban.

Cu două zile înainte, comisarul european solicita omologilor săi să nu mai facă referire la sintagma „limba moldovenească" în documentele încheiate de UE cu R. Moldova. "Când scrie pe site limba moldovenească şi apare, de fapt, limba română este o problemă. Nu poate fi acceptat ca un document care apare cu altă titulatură să fie în limba română", a spus Orban.

În opinia sa, aceasta este o problemă care "vizează apărarea limbii române". El a arătat că există soluţii tehnice şi juridice pentru a evita să se mai facă referire la limba moldovenească, însă a adăugat că nu poate garanta că nu se vor mai înregistra astfel de cazuri. Orban a explicat că România ar putea imita metoda Greciei, care s-a opus la un moment dat denumirii statului Macedonia, care la ora actuală se numeşte FYROM.
 * Good news. I retract the things I said against Orban. --Thus Spake Anittas 14:14, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * But the Council of Europe apparently recognizes Moldovan. --PaxEquilibrium 20:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Livezeanu Paragraph
I see that the paragraph by Livezeanu keeps being introduced in the history and politics section. That paragraph takes up half the space in that section and only deals with a minor issue (i.e. the history of the alphabet). Furthermore, that paragraph is rather one-sided and is not even representative of the general article that it is taken from. I removed the paragraph for now, but if you feel that it should stay in the article, please explain. TSO1D 17:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Alphabet is hardly a minor political issue. Restored. If you think the p section is small, expand it, not make it smaller. The paragraph gives an opinion of a reputable historian about this political issue. Please feel free to turn the quotaiton into a summary, if you object its size. `'Míkka>t 05:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. The piece in question is not mine. I only sourced it and restored its persistent deletion. `'Míkka>t 05:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There is a specific article Moldovan Cyrillic alphabet. Consider putting the info there. This article is about a political controversy, not a language. :Dc76\talk 11:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem though is that the way that paragraph is added just seems very out of place. There's no introduction, no logical sequence, after a brief paragraph about politics and history this large part appears. If you read the original article, you'll see what I mean. That article is about language politics of Moldova and it has a section about the alphabet where this paragraph is found. So taking that whole paragraph and putting it into the tiny summary section here is ridiculous because it is so out of scale. Basically, my point is that if the paragraph is to be added, it should be added to the subarticle, not the main one, because the issue is addressed there in detail. And even there, not the whole text should be added, but perhaps one or two sentences put in context. TSO1D 18:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Română în Moldova
Cred că te referi la scrierea cu â şi î din câte am înţeles din mesajul tău. Aceasta este introducerea celui mai recent Dicţionar ortografic publicat de Academia de Ştiinţe A Moldovei (corespondentul DOOM-ului din România). Acesta anunţă că "în noua ediţie se aplică Hotărârea Adunării Generale a Academiei Române din 17 februarie 1993 privind revenirea la "â" şi "sunt" în limba română".

Totodată aici găseşti curriculumul la limba română pentru liceu (publicat în 2006). Între conţinuturile de lecţie recomandate pentru clasa a X-a (prima de liceu) se numără şi:


 * Dicţionarul ortografic – operă lingvistică şi rezultat al evoluţiei unei limbi. Modificări în ortografia limbii române: DOOM – 2005. Inventarul semnelor ortografice aplicate în limba română. (v. pagina 13 jos)

Cu toate acestea în Moldova prea puţin se face caz din ortografie, o problemă mai stringentă este denumirea limbii, sau supremaţia limbii române. De aceea poţi să observi că în ciuda faptului că curriculumul vorbeşte despre modificarea ortografiei limbii române - şi recomandă la clasă ca elevilor să le fie aduse la cunoştinţă modificările, - el este scris cu grafia veche. --Danutz 18:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * "Dicţionarul ortografic al limbii române (ortopepic, morfologic, cu norme de punctuaţie)" (cel din care este scanata introducerea pe care ţi-am trimiso în comentariul anterior) este elaborat de Academia de Ştiinţe a Moldovei şi normal toate instituţiile din Republica Moldova trebuie să ţină cont de el când scriu în limba română. Şi la noi deciziile din DOOM 2005 sunt obligatorii în învăţământ şi actele oficiale. Aşa şi în Moldova. Deci decizia de folosire a literei â este natural obligatorie în învăţământ pentru că materia în şcoală se numeşte limba română şi nu moldovenească. În legislaţie situaţia e mai complicată, întrucât limba acolo este denumită moldovenească şi foarte rar română (într-adevăr sunt unele acte oficiale în care mai scapă denumirea de limbă română). Dar moldoveneasca nu este o limbă standardizată, ci este considerată de legislaţia republicii ca doar un nume pentru acelaşi fenomen lingvistic întâlnit şi în România: citat din legea privind concepţia naţională a Rep. Moldova: "Concepţia porneşte de la adevărul statornicit istoriceşte şi confirmat de tezaurul literar comun: poporul moldovenesc şi poporul român folosesc o formă literară comună [...]. Avînd originea comună, dispunînd de un fond lexical de bază comun, limba naţională moldovenească şi limba naţională română îşi păstrează fiecare lingvonimul/glotonimul său ca însemn identificator al fiecărei naţiuni: moldovenească şi română"


 * Precizez că prin "limba naţională moldovenească" se înţelege în contextul legii limba naţională din Republica Moldova iar prin "limba naţională română" se înţelege limba naţională din România. Lingvonim/glotonim înseamnă denumirea limbii.


 * Deci, având în vedere că limba moldovenească este doar un nume, atunci ea are aceleaşi reguli ortografice ca limba română. Şi atunci, având în vedere dicţionarul academiei de la Chişinău, trebuie folosit â.--Danutz

Am citit doar pimele randuri si vreau sa reamintesc ca limba Moldoveneasca nu mai e oficiala, Romana este oficiala. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tepes Doamne (talk • contribs) 01:15, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Move to Moldovan language (linguistics)
We should move the article to Moldovan language (linguistics). It's better this way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.33.7.47 (talk) 19:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)


 * And why is that? — Adi Japan   ☎  08:44, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

User/Administrator:Mikkalai is deleting every official statement about the non-existance of Moldovan language
EVEN IF THE STATEMENTS ARE REFERENCED!!! Furthermore, he gives no explanations to his deletions of referenced material (even from official sites). --Cezarika f. (talk) 13:37, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Why is this referenced text being deleted again and again? The European Parliament has included in its documents the recommendations not to make references to the so-called "Moldovan language". Nergaal (talk) 18:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+REPORT+A6-2007-0427+0+DOC+WORD+V0//EN Romania reiterates that, according to the facts and scientific evidence, including the interpretatio —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.204.42.155 (talk) 18:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

use this insead [http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?Type=REPORT&Reference=A6-2007-0427&language=EN Romania underlines that its participation to the said agreements does not imply whatsoever any recognition or acknowledgement of the name of the language referred to as "Moldovan". Romania reiterates that, according to the facts and scientific evidence, including the interpretation of the Academy of Science of the Republic of Moldova (issued in September 1994), the correct name of the language is Romanian.(1)] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nergaal (talk • contribs) 18:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Your edit states: "rv by user who has problem with the understanding of wikipedia's sourcing policies (like not using wiki as a source and fair presentation of the sources"

Please explain: 1)not using wiki as a source 2)fair presentation of the sources; in the context of this edit. Unless you prove your point, I will have to report your abusive, ignorant behavior. Thanks. Nergaal (talk) 00:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

You have been explained several times that one of the deleted statements quoted from a newspaper are false and misleading. The tto remaining political rants of Romaninan politicians have no place in the introduction to a linguistical article. `'Míkka>t 02:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Liars
Since when a good referenced source is denied? I mean the European Parliament rezolution to forbid the usage of notion "Moldovan language".--211.233.41.22 (talk) 17:45, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Anonimu vs Nergaal

 * 1) uses wikipedia as a reference, so considering it a reference means considering wikipedia the reference. This is not allowed here.
 * 2) states clear that "the facts and scientific evidence" are only Romania's opinion, that is allegedly also supported  by a misterious 1994 interpretation of the Academy of Science of the Republic of Moldova, that may or may not be obsolete by now.
 * 3) Also makes it clear that the rapporteur stated Romania's oppinon on the matter, and not that of the EP.
 * Please stop your insults. And please buy some glasses.

Anonimu (talk) 00:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

3) if you noticed, the referenced article is called "Parliament of Europe rejects Moldovan language". The first paragraph says "The Parliament of Europe passed yesterday the resolution to modify the EU-Moldovan Republic readmission agreements. The document includes the recommendations authored by rapporteur Jean Marin Marinescu, an EPP representative, denying the existence of the 'Moldovan language'." Regardless if it is Romania's opinion on the matter, European parlament adopted a resolution that includes the recommendations denying the existence of Moldovan language. 2) it is irrelevant weather it is obsolete or not now. the relevant part is that Romanian's opinion is based on this document AND that European Parlamend ENDORSED THIS OPINION BY ADOPTING THE RESOLUTION! we are not discussing weather the opinion of the EP is good or bad, and if it is based on verifiable facts, but that this is the EP's opinion Nergaal (talk) 02:09, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This is false. As of NOvember 2007 the term "Moldoval language" is still in use in new EU documents.  A politically biasewd newspaper cannot be  a source of information about EU. Romanian  political opinion has no place in the introduction of the article about official language of another state.  `'Míkka>t 02:35, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * please bring references that state that Moldovan languge is still in unse in EU documents. Otherwise biasewd newspapers are still better than no reference at all.Nergaal (talk) 10:00, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no disagreement in wikipedia that Moldovan is linguistically identical to Romanian. The current article says this clearly and there is no need in additional quotes political rants and threats of extremist Romanian politicians, who are not exprets in linguistics and hence have no say in this article per wikipedia rules. The Romanian political threat is a disgusting pressure applied to a souvereign state. `'Míkka>t 21:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Answer to aggressive Romanian journalist lies
From November 17, 2007 interview with Leonard Orban, European Commissioner for Multilingualism:


 * Rep.: Does the European Commission acknowledge the existence of the Moldovan language as official language or not? How do you comment on the fact that EU citizens are required to speak this language if they want to join the staff of the EU special representative to the Moldovan Republic?
 * L.O.: It is not the European Commission who acknowledges one language or the other. I want to be very clear about it: it is a decision that belongs to every national state. When views are different, of course they have to be settled politically, not at the European Commission level, but by the states that have different views. As for the other thing you have mentioned, the fact that on the European Commission's website there is listed a requirement such as knowledge of the Moldovan language or of some documents with references to it, this is about a matter now tackled by the European Commission and Romanian authorities. As normal, a decision will be reached accordingly.

Case closed and sealed. `'Míkka>t 21:29, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I am puzzled that nobody replied to this: LO and the European Commission express Points of View, not truths. And nobody can acknowledge a language. However, the EU is a reputable source and its POV is what's important here. The fact that some other scientist or country writes a document stating Moldovan =Romanian or Moldovan !=Romanian also expresses the POV of that individual or institution, not the Truth. Dpotop (talk) 19:51, 8 July 2008 (UTC)