Talk:Moldovenism

Is there any special reason why this isn't spelled "Moldovanism" (which would be the more expected English spelling)? AnonMoos 22:54, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * See . Some of the results are in English, as you can see.

This article has major shortcomings. First of all, Originalists and Romanianists appeared in the 1920s not 1900s or 1800s. The origins of Moldovenism like in Soviet and Stalinists policies to create an artificial "new moldovan identity". As it stands right now, the article is not worthy of a wikipedia entry. Someone should check it out. Constantzeanu 23:27, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Umm, hello, the 1920s are *part of* the 1900s. If you mean 1900s as a decade, of course, no, but in English when people say "1900s", "1800s", with no more specific context, it usually means a century, not a decade. Moldovenism's *ultimate* origins are in Originalism, and in earlier Moldovan patriotism (when Moldova was a principality), as opposed to pan-Romanianism. Yes, the Soviets promoted it, and re-engineered it to fit their motives, but they didn't have the original idea. --Node 10:29, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It's still unclear what's with 1800s and why do you put an equality sign between patriotism and "moldovenism". --Just a tag
 * Patriotism from pre-union times. 1800s are the origins of the nationalist movement of all of Europe, not really Bessarabia. --Node 14:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The "Patriotism" from pre-union times was pro-union. bogdan 11:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Bogdan, I thought before that you were relatively objective, but now it seems clear you are not. Obviously, some patriotism from pre-union times was pro-union. But it is outrageous to say that there was nobody who was proud of being Wallachian or Moldavian, who cherished a national identity of that type. Did you ever notice that not every single intellectual favoured union? Did you notice that the vote in the Bessarabian parliament wasn't unanimous? Just as a Canadian can be an American patriot or a Canadian patriot or even a Chadian patriot, any person can be a patriot of any country or national ideal. --Node 11:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Node, there was a reason why I asked you for references. Overwhelmingly, the intellectuals were pro-union. Those against were mostly boyars, who thought that a union would decrease their political powers. (this actually came out as true, as the union adopted a 'modern' constitution) There were, albeit few intellectuals agains the union, the reasons they gave were mostly economical: Iaşi would become a small and insignifiant province town. (they weren't quite right: Iaşi is today smaller than Bucharest, but it still remains the country's second city by population). bogdan

Romanticist nationalist movement

 * The origins of Moldovenism ultimately lie in the Romanticist nationalist movement that swept Europe in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

This is false. Give me a reference. bogdan 00:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Same as the reference for Romanianists and Originalists. Originalists = Moldovenists. And besides, that warrants a, not a  -- unless you have more to dispute, I'm going to remove the template. --Node 10:29, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

OK here are some more affirmations I dispute and ask for a reference:


 * At the time, Bessarabia (roughly corresponding to the modern Rep. Moldova in territory) was one of the poorest areas of Europe

Says who ?


 * In the early days of the Soviet Union, originalism was surpressed (sometimes violently), and Romanianism promoted in the hope that the Moldavian SSR would someday unite with Romania.

Again, misunderstanding of the historical context. Soviet Union wanted Romania to become part of the Soviet Union, not Moldavian SSR to unite with Romania...


 * Which would have united Romania with the MSSR. Not as an independent state, but they would've been united nonetheless. --Node 11:12, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * It's misleading. bogdan 11:19, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Says you. Perhaps it's better to reverse it so it's that ROmania would someday unite with MSSR. In English people usually say "unite with" rather than "unite to" so which is first or second doesn't have much semantic difference. China unites with Mars, Mars unites with China, both are joings where either could be dominant. --Node 11:28, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * However, after World War 2, in which the Romanians and the Soviets were enemies

During the last part of WW2 and after the war, they were not enemies. They were allies. See the Warsaw Pact.

Happy now ? bogdan 10:38, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

More
Moldovenism is both a political ideology and an interpretation of historical events relating to the the interpretation of historical events ? Could you expound on that ?

was only part of that for a little over 20 years - when you know the exact numbers, put them.

Compared to the hundreds of years spent as part of Russia, the Ottoman Empire, and the principality of Moldavia. - I think putting exact numbers (if you know them) here would do no harm.


 * BTW, neither Moldavia nor Wallachia nor Transylvania were ever part of the Ottoman Empire. They were suzerain states, i.e. the Ottomans controlled the foreign policy, but not the internal administration, which had to pay an anual tribute to the Ottomans. Only two Romanian territories were part of the Ottoman Empire: Dobruja, which was part of the Silistra pashalik and the Banat, part of the Buda pashalik. bogdan 16:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Many Moldovenists also believe that the Republic of Moldova, rather than Romania, is the modern heir to the historical Principality of Moldavia. - Sources ? Do you have the names of the people who call or called themselves "moldovenists" ?

Some Moldovenists also entertain irredentist ideologies, believing that the modern Romanian region of Moldavia rightfully belongs to the Republic of Moldova - Sources ?

After several Romanian political problems and scandals in the 1990s, could you please expand on that too ?

Rewritten
The article stayed without references for a few weeks, so I re-wrote it completely, this time having references. If anyone wants to add information (yes, Node, I mean you :-), then he should provide a source, otherwise, the changes would be reverted as original research. bogdan 13:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You're a liar. You didn't give references. You gave a reference. And you didn't reference each statement, and your rewrite was misleading, and you deleted information, and the list goes on. Did I re-write Anti-Romanianism? No; parst of the original article are still intact, it has been reformatted, fiery rhetoric toned down, questionable statements either referenced or removed, and although it is still not as good as it probably should be, it is considerably better now than it was at the beginning. Please see wiki. You, Constantzeanu, Bonaparte, Anittas, and many other people seem to have the idea that Wiki is about replacing one version with another. You guys like to revert rather than make changes. You like to delete all existing text and start over. That's not what Wiki is about. When you see that somebody has added information to a page which you dispute, you shouldn't revert them, but instead go and fix the errors as if no previous version existed. Guidelines on reversion suggest that it should only be used for vandalism or disputed changes which are really extremely major, such as what you did here (replacing the entire content of the page rather than adding and removing statements and sources). Particularly telling is that 90% of your rewrite of the page was included in the original. You may as well have provided sources for those statements which are reinforced by your source from the rewrite, and added after those statements which you disputed or which you did not dispute but for which there remained no source. --Node 11:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, we are all very evil! I think we should all be shot! SHOT! Actually, the whole Romanian conspiracy of liars and revertists should be identified by a "special Moldovenist commission" and then tortured. Confessions should be extracted and only then shot. I nominate Node ue as head of this "special commission". Constantzeanu 05:07, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course, I suppose you think wiki is only about screaming "YOU'RE A LIAR!!" in talk pages and complaining when your unsourced and false information is removed. bogdan 06:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

HAh.
Take that, unionist losers. The article now pretty much says the same thing as when I penned it in the first place. I win! --Node 06:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't you think that childish statements like this only work to discredit you? Vox Populi (TSO) 21:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but it's true. --Node 00:23, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, the current version is the one written by me. :-) bogdan 21:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Interesting how you changed your mind in the end to agree with me... --Node 00:23, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Please, don't vandalise this article. The correct title of thjis work is: Argentina Gribincea, Mihai Grecu Moldova: Situation analysis and trend assessment commissioned by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, October 2004 Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovenism". You don't have the write to change the original title.

Early history
I inserted 4 "dubious" marks in the "early history" section:
 * 1) Dubious statement 1: After the union of the Romanian Principalities in 1859 and the creation of Romania, the term Moldovan as an ethnic descriptor gradually fell out of use in Romania. First of all, this statement contradicts the previous 2 statements, which say that the term Moldovan was based on geography, and not on ethnicity. Second, there's no source on that.
 * The emphasis, though, is on ethnic descriptor. After the union, it was used almost exclusively as a regional term rather than having an ethnic meaning. TSO1D 23:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * As a matter of fact, I agree with the text saying the people of Bessarabia, similarly to the other Moldavians across the Prut River, continued to view themselves as Moldovans, which had a geographical rather than an ethnic meaning. I see no proof of the fact that Moldavians saw themselves as an ethnic group/nation at the time. As for the Moldovans/Moldavians distinction, it did not exist at the time. Would you be so kind to give me some sources supporting the statement I challenge? Dpotop 08:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Dubious statement 2: After the union of the Romanian Principalities in 1859 and the creation of Romania, the term Moldovan as an ethnic descriptor ... was preserved in Bessarabia. this statement contradicts the previous 2 statements, which say that the term Moldovan was based on geography, and not on ethnicity (actually, it is still based on geography in today's Romania). Second, there's no source on that.
 * Same as before, in the rest of Romania, it acquired a solely regional meaning, but in Bessarabia it retained the quasi ethnic meaning. TSO1D 23:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Same as before. The Romanian awakening happened later. To be more specific, I think this is original research that tries to interpolate a "most probable logical scenario". But there's no source to support it, so you cannot write it here. Dpotop 08:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Dubious statement 3: This doctrine was reinforced in the 1920s in the Moldavian ASSR by a group of political and cultural activists who sought the support of Stalin. This statement is highly POV. I would argue that the Soviet Union has actually created the Moldavian ASSR based on a doctrine aimed at re-occupying Bessarabia. To support this, I'll start by noting that the Moldavian ASSR has been created on territories that never belong to Moldova.
 * I don't understand. I agree that the purpose of the MASSR was to permit the reoccupation of Bessarabia, but I don't see how the sentence you cited contradicts that. TSO1D 23:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You revert causality, and talk about "reinforcement". I'd say the doctrine was "created" by the Soviet government, and then served as basis for the creation of the MASSR. Of course, neither this statement, nor the current one are sourced, so they should not figure in the article. Dpotop 08:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Dubious statement 4: The evolution of the Moldovenist ideology in part revolved around the development of the Moldovan language. Again, highly POV. To my knowledge, the entire creation of a Moldovan language was due to an ideology aiming at recovering Bessarabia. To support this, I'll start by noting that the Russians/Soviets never had the idea of creating a Moldovan ethnicity before Bessarabia went to Romania (in 1918). Dpotop 22:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * And again, I agree with you, the development of the Moldovan ethnicity was linked with the territorial aspirations of the USSR. But nevertheless, the language was the central theme of the Moldovenists, that is why they tried to artificially make it more distinct from Romanian. TSO1D 23:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I'd say the "language" was a byproduct of Soviet ideology. As I see the phrasing, the language development seems to be the central issue. Which is POV. We should not take sides. Dpotop 08:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

English term?
Google Book search bring no English result. All results are in Romanian, and seem to refer either to Moldovan words/expression used by Moldavian authors from Romania, or to the anti-unionist attitude of Moldavians in the second part of the XIXth century.Xasha (talk) 16:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * There are scientific/peer-reviewed works which use this term for the ideology of 20th century, not only in Romanian, but also in English. For instance:


 * Heitmann, Klaus, "Literature and Politics in Moldova", in Südosteuropa Mitteilungen (03/2002)
 * (abstract) The central question of the analysis refers to the part and function of authors since the years of Perestrojka in the political life of the former Moldavian Soviet Republic, the Moldova of today. The following issues are dealt with herein: The decisive contribution of the authors' commitment to put through the national concern of the Rumanian-speaking majority of the population in 1988-1991; the critical retrospect on literature under the Soviet regime; the controversial thesis of its "Moldovenism", i.e. its characteristic regionalism and autochthonism as a latent opposition during the era before 1989; the tradition of an indigenous regional literature, dated back to the time between 1918 and 1940, when Bessarabia belonged to Rumania; the polarity of pro-Rumanian, unionistic and anti-Rumanian, independent Moldovenism in the present time; the splitting of the pro-Rumanian intellectuals in the conservative-nationalistic circle around the magazine »Literatura şi arta« and the postmodern, pro-European direction of the "Eighties", whose organ is the magazine »Contrafort«.

bogdan (talk) 16:42, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice article. As a related concept to Moldovenism, besides the 'Macedonism' should be added also the 'Montenegrism'. Cheers. 24.86.127.209 (talk) 03:17, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Xasha's comment is incorrect and misleading. English isn't a requirement, but in any case Google Books finds relevant works in several languages, one of which is "The Transformation of the Nation-state in Europe at the Dawn of the 21st Centruy" published by the Council of Europe. The title says it all. andy (talk) 10:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The only thing this proves is that you want to push your POV using divination.Xasha (talk) 10:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

new discusion
moldovenism is based on the fact that the rep. of moldova is the succesor of the old Principality of Moldavia. let's review some data. 45% of the Principality of Moldavia is in romania, 30% in rep.of moldova, 20% in ucraine. there are 7 mil (9 milion if counting the moldovans in other parts of romania) romanian moldovans and 3 milion in rep of moldova. so the large majority of people of the Principality of Moldavia declared themself romanians. so the real name of the language and name of rep.of moldova should be the besserabian language and the rep. of besserabia. also there is no real great besserabian to be used as a symbol in the history of the state since stephan the great is, as i stated above, romanian. actualy the majority international renown moldovans considered them self romanian. their name is obvius. actualy besserabia never left romania because of the will of the people, each time it was military conquered and each time illegal. the founder of the the current rep.of moldova is stalin not the besserabian people. actualy the whole theory is so...not true that it would have been impossible to impose in a democratic free state.--Prometeu (talk) 21:07, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't recall any ellections in Besarabia when it was occupied by Romania after the fall of the Russian Empire. 78.104.124.103 (talk) 21:12, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

pls explain deletion
dear anonimu, pls explain why did you undo my text. i think it was justifited. you could have modify it to look more neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prometeu (talk • contribs) 10:29, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It's agitprop exemplified, I agree with Anonimu on that one. --Illythr (talk) 13:41, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
 * well why don't you change what i wrote to look more neutral. i think the authors view is important and reflects the main point of view not taking into account the soviets view. Prometeu (talk) 15:56, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it's a bad time to add this particular piece right now. They might yet change the constitution and we'll have to rewrite the article again, then. But whatever, Serenus seems to have done it already. --Illythr (talk) 21:51, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

dear user Serenusaurelius, the historian is not Denis Deletant but Marcel Mitrasca. The book is "Moldova: A Romanian Province under Russian Rule. Diplomatic History from the Archives of the Great Powers", page 27. pls modify.--Prometeu (talk) 13:23, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * dear user anonimu, you could have let the text intact until Serenusaurelius would have find a reasonable new form. i'm sorry but you are beeing to agresive--Prometeu (talk) 14:54, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The text explicitly breached two core WP policies: WP:NPOV and WP:V. Wikipedia is not a venue for political advocacy, so please stop promoting your personal opinions. This is not the place for agitprop, neither for the one promoted by the BSE, nor for that promoted by a Romanian diplomat.Anonimu (talk) 15:46, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, such views are allowed if they are directly attributed and balanced with opposing views. I will now try to reintroduce the bit in an indirect form.
 * By the way, Serenus' attribution was correct, as Mitrasca directly quotes Deletant there. --Illythr (talk) 16:02, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
 * yes, i consider it fair enough now. sorry for the dennis deletant misunderstanding--Prometeu (talk) 16:27, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

The Word Moldovanism is used by both supporters and opponents
Stepaniuc said clearly "I'm glad I have the reputation of a Moldovanist" http://politicom.moldova.org/news/el-polemica-purtata-de-dorin-chirtoaca-i-victor-stepaniuc-208652-rom.html In a debate with Mircea Druc, Stepaniuc said "I'm not a Unionist, I'm a Moldovanist" etc. Only opponents of Moldovanism think it's a pejorative term, supporters do not. Serenusaurelius (talk) May 19, 2010 (EST)
 * Sorry, it only says that he is not especially upset by this tag his opponents put on him (the reporter says it clearly that only opponents of this view use this term), not that he considers the definition of the term as used by them a scientific concept. This is clear from the deliberately sarcastic references to Bogdan I and Stephen the Great as the greatest "moldovanists" ever.Anonimu (talk) 19:43, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Haha, I'm sorry Anonimu, but you can't be the judge of such things. His exact words matter. "I don't regret the things I've done [this is irrelevant]. I am even happy to have the reputation of a Moldovanist". For tone, listen to the audio. I provided evidence that the term is not pejorative. Stepaniuc is not ironical about Moldovanism (listen to the audio at http://www.europalibera.org/content/article/2030249.html). He didn't say "especially upset", that's your interpretation. I've heard him on many occasions. Somebody else said "I'm a Moldovanist and period/Sunt moldovenist si punctum" http://www.flux.md/editii/20103/articole/8655/ Until you bring evidence that the word Moldovanism is pejorative (for supporters of a distinct Moldovan ethnicity), I will revert to the previous edit. Period. Serenusaurelius (talk) May 19, 2010 (EST)

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