Talk:Molosser

Latin
I always thought that 'molosser' was a corruption of the Latin word for mastiff, 'molossus.' Anyone care to enlighten me?

Sorry, the above was me. I haven't got the hang of the tilde thing. Mythicaldog 14:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

The name comes from the Greek word Molossos ( Μολοσσός), which translates in Latin as Molossus ( with the typical changing of -os into -us. You can check out the wiki-article about the Molosssoi here.

Photo
An entlebucher showing the typical molosser build???Are we going mad???Choice any molosser but not an entlebucher please!!!The entlebucher...oh god... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.54.149.219 (talk • contribs)


 * I'm not sure what's wrong with using the Entlebucher photo, but I'm fine with changing it or adding more photos. Would a Dogue de Bordeaux (image here) or a Bullmastiff (image here) be more to your liking? -- Pharaoh Hound  (talk)   (The Game)  13:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Boston Terrier
I just did a small edit, deleted the text next to Boston Terrier. It was completely incorrect, Bostons are not actual terriers, and are not included in that group by the AKC. 72.14.125.25 04:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The Boston Terrier, the smallest Molosser, should be mentioned in the lead alongside the big ones. It'd improve the article because it'd give the lead reader an immediate sence of the wide variety of dogs there are in this category.  Chrisrus (talk) 06:23, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The Wikipedia entry on the Boston Terrier does not mention that it is a Molosser. It was bred down on size and it does not have drooping ears, so can it really be considered a Molloser anymore? Grandma Roses (talk) 20:29, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed! None of the toy breeds or lap dogs are molossers. Whether or not they 'came from' a molosser style dog in their ancestry doesn't make them molossers in present time. Nomopbs (talk) 21:16, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Revert this

 * Megistias (talk) 09:13, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello Megistias,howe are you today?
 * I'am not sure what is wrong with that and I don't see any problem.It's relevant for Wikipedia standards,and Epirus does not exist.--Thispoems (talk) 20:19, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Revert the page the material was referenced.Megistias (talk) 20:21, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * we can reverted,no problem but don't you think is better for the article to be relevant?--Thispoems (talk) 20:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Your repeated vandalism and provocative stance is not acceptable in wiki.Megistias (talk) 20:45, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Sir,from my readings,parts of modern Albania and the area of NorthEpir in north west Greece, roughly comprised ancient Molossia.I don't know why is this hard to make it clear to you.--Thispoems (talk) 21:07, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * If you continue you will be reported and most likely punished in some way so i would advise you to stop.The article is sourced and referenced.Megistias (talk) 21:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sir,I did not breake any rules.I rv two times and adviced the users to use the discussion page to talk and bring their arguments.You did report me at FP so do not lie about reporting me.It is not nice that you act like this when I am trying to communicate.Its not the first time you bullie me. Why don't you response to my arguments like that parts of modern Albania and the area of North Epirus in north west Greece, roughly comprised  ancient Molossia?--Thispoems (talk) 21:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You removed perfectly referenced material and that is vandalism.Northern epirus was Chaonia.Megistias (talk) 21:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You use the word "it was", so what country now days comprised ancient Molossia?--Thispoems (talk) 21:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Molossia is in the region of modern greece now and in the antiquity in the region of Ancient greece.You are trolling now and have been ansewred by users and the article material itselfMegistias (talk) 21:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You are trolling now?? nonsense a bullie act.Argument with you closed.--Thispoems (talk) 21:29, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The article is referenced.Take some time to read wiki rules pleaseMegistias (talk) 21:51, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Megistias, you may want to read our policies on WP:AGF and WP:CIVILITY. From what I can see, Thispoems is making a good faith effort to discuss some points of the article. The fact that the name is derived from Mollosia is supported by the references and not in dispute. However, it is worth mentioning that those ancient areas may include parts of modern southern Albania as a convenient context for readers who are not familiar with ancient boundaries. OhNo itsJamie  Talk 06:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Er, no. Ancient Molossia falls entirely within the Periphery of Epirus in Greece.  In fact, the ancient Molossians, who were famous for their dogs, were a Greek speaking tribe.  --Tsourkpk (talk) 07:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not an expert on Ancient Greece, but I noticed that the Periphery of Epirus article states "...It is part of the wider historical region of Epirus, which overlaps modern Albania and Greece but now mostly lies in Greek territory." OhNo itsJamie Talk 18:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The ref's clearly state my points.Albania has nothing to do with Molossia.Megistias (talk) 09:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Its not a good faith effort.References were removed and material that was good.Megistias (talk) 10:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Please Help
How can I get doggo to redirect here? The Spanish Anglosism, doggo, has been re-borrowed back into English, as in Doggo Canario, causing some confusion. The English Hispanism Doggo is ambiguous, and it would help to be able to simply redirect any internal reference to it to this page here, because, in English, "Doggo" doesn't mean "dog" per se, it means "molosser", as this article correctly states. Unfortunately, I don't know how to make it do this. Please help. Chrisrus (talk) 02:56, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The name "Molosser"
The termination seems to be German. Is it a German loanword? How long has it been used in English? And rew D alby 13:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems to be Greek, from the Greek word Molossos ( Μολοσσός), which translates in Latin as Molossus. Chrisrus (talk) 00:48, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

This is the second time someone has come here asking this question. I would add it to the article, but I don't have a citation. I think it should be added because people ask this question alot. It is a strange word; the least commonly known of all words in its catagory (terrier, hound, etc.). Chrisrus (talk) 00:48, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Molosser certainly looks German in form and seems to be borrowed from there – the German term is completely identical in spelling –, even if the term is, of course, ultimately derived from the name of a Greek landscape. Had it come via Latin or French, one would expect the word to be Molossian. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

"Molossian" is what I've always heard these dogs called - this is the first time I've ever seen "Molosser." 24.61.4.237 (talk) 21:49, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Origin needs a complete rewrite.
There is evidence of large livestock guardian dogs in Mesopotamina and the Turkish highlands several thousand years before the alleged story of the Tibetian Mastif origin. Considering where sheep and goats originated from, and how widespread the Livestock Guardian Dog was through out Europe and Asia Minor, the placement of the origin of large mastif guard breeds would make more sense in other areas instead of isolated Tibet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.12.220.254 (talk) 21:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree - more so, the story of the Chinese emperor needs proper citation, with acknowledgement of the historicity of the source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.174.145.254 (talk) 13:30, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

The Trojan war does not date to 2800 BC by any estimate, nor is the precise time of the war necessary to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.46.28.223 (talk) 04:16, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Short Muzzle
Is there a reason for these dogs to have a shorter muzzle? My Dad said that shorter muzzles equal stronger bites but I can't find a reference about it here... or anywhere else. It made me wonder why such strong breeds would have deliberately shortened mouths. Gatorgirl7563 (talk) 04:13, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Andronicus Mastiff
The following text is moved here for discussion: NB: The "Andronicus Mastiff" has been temporarily removed from this list as it is NOT an established, recognised or legitimate Mastiff/Molasser with any history pre-dating the sole breeders own litter. These are a modern hybridised mongrel made up of a variation of Mastiff and Bandogge's with not a single show of breed features consistency even within the same small litter.

PLEAE NOTE:

These 'opinions' will be removed from this edit if, in fact, any legal proof of lineage for the breed "Andronicus Mastiff" is demonstrated and can be fully legitimised with authentic documents by a recognised Kennel Club.

PLEASE BE WARY OF UNSCRUPULOUS BREEDERS CLAIMING BASTARDIZED DOGS AS RECOGNIZED BREEDS. THESE DOGS ARE CHANGING HANDS FOR AS MUCH AS $10,000 ( RAMPAGE JACKSON UFC CHAMPION, UNITED STATES ) UNDER THE BELIEF THAT THEY ARE AN ANCIENT AND HIGHLY 'SOUGHT AFTER' BREED. (the very fact that someone advertises a dog as 'highly sought after' in the first place should be warning enough to all )

PLEASE DO NOT SUPPORT THE DESTRUCTION AND DILUTION OF THE MASTIFF BREED BY LENDING ANY CREDENCE TO THESE CLAIMS OF LEGITIMACY FOR WHAT IS LITTLE MORE THAN A MONGREL. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:59, 30 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the edit, but you need a good technical term for what they seem to be: literally mixed breeds or crossbreeds that who knows might be superior dogs, but unless their breeder can get them to "breed true" enough to satisfy some future edition of Dogs: The Ultimate Dictionary of over 1000 Dog Breeds or something, they will not be listworthy. Stuff like "the destruction and dilution of the mastiff breed...little more than a mongrel" is unnecessary at best. All you have to do is convince us that it doesn't make our standards, which is just confirmation that it's real, preferably in WP:RSes.  We don't choose to include or delete stuff in order to maintain breed purity or not to; we're just a collection of facts. Chrisrus (talk) 04:24, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The List of Molossoid Breeds section needs to list its sources. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 12:37, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You are right about the List of Molossoid Breeds. First, please do feel free to go ahead and delete all uncited red links.  Red links have got to go, unless they are cited.  For the uncited blue links on the list, well, it depends.  Personally, when it comes to lists, before I delete a blue link I click it in a new tab.  If the article has citations, I'm satisfied and don't delete them.  I know I should probably bring back a citation and add it to the item on the list, but I find that I don't because I'm satisfied by the article by then and all I wanted to know was whether it belonged on the list.  Also it's not always clear which citation to bring back.  Anyway, you are right that anyone may delete any uncited blue link according to the rules, but I figure, if the link is blue, a click's as good as a cite when it comes to lists.  Happy editing! Chrisrus (talk) 18:11, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

The Strange Case of the Glen of Imaal Terrier
Heads up all about this thread opened at the Wikipedia Biology Project but should do so here as well: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biology Chrisrus (talk) 05:03, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100726100237/http://www.moloss.com:80/001/ptxt/breed.html to http://www.moloss.com/001/ptxt/breed.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100504135542/http://www.molossos.gr:80/ to http://www.molossos.gr
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070403094056/http://www.cynopedia.com:80/perasmena/ellinikos_molottikos_gr/index.html to http://www.cynopedia.com/perasmena/ellinikos_molottikos_gr/index.html

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Proposed merge with List of Molosser breeds
There is already a list in the main article Doug Weller  talk 18:57, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Support – Couldn't agree more! — Gareth Griffith-Jones &#124; The Welsh &#124; Buzzard &#124; 20:06, 27 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Support – Wholeheartedly support, although the formatting of List of Molosser breeds should not be replicated on this page, AKC recognition is not relevant to the article — Cavalryman V31 (talk) 05:20, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

Potentially malicious website
Malwarebytes says this is a bad website. It is used as a reference in the article. Should we just delete it? 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 23:56, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Good to notice. Macedonian, a Greek (talk) 11:01, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

"Recognized" Breeds
As far as I know, the Lakota Mastino is not recognized by any remarkable kennel club. Also, depending on which register is considered, the Gull Terr, Bully Kutta, Alano Español, Kangal Dog, American Bulldog and Moscow Watchdog are not recognized (unless talking about national recognition in their original countries) - neither is the American Pit Bull Terrier, unless referring to the United Kennel Club. On the other hand, the Polish Tatra Sheepdog IS recognized by the International Kennel Club FCI. And I assume the list was supposed to be about the FCI recognition? --Canarian (talk) 19:30, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Previous merger with List of Molosser breeds
I have expanded out the Molosser breeds section of the article, but it now seems a little ungainly to me. Does anyone feel that perhaps they should be unmerged and the section complete moved to the previous page? Cavalryman V31 (talk) 01:03, 8 September 2017 (UTC).

Proposed merger with Mastiff
The page Mastiff states, "The term "mastiff type" has been used synonymously with the term "molosser"." There is very little information on the Mastiff page and nothing that could not easily be incorporated into the Molosser article. The distinguishing statement, about Genetic history, "Mastiffs share a common ancestor and form a coherent branch on the dog evolutionary tree within the molossers", is not very well articulated within the reference. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 01:52, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
 * That journal article clearly supports the statement. Just look at the cladogram.  It shows that all the molossers share a common ancestor in a way that demonstrates that the molossers are a definate branch or clade on the dog family tree.
 * That article is a summary of a huge project to map dog genetics.
 * This is consistent with what dog history says about the molossers in this article and elsewhere. They are all descended from a more recent common ancestor than the one that they share with the terriers, scent hounds, spaniels, and so on.
 * There is one glaring exception. There's a small terrier that shares a more recent common ancestor with the molossers than the one they share with the other small terriers.  I wonder if that's because the breeding stock included a small molosser like a Boston Terrier or something.
 * Anyway, that's not your point.  Whatever we do, the fact is, not all molossers are mastiffs unless, for example, a French Bulldog is a mastiff.  They're a lot of overlap, but it's not perfect.  So merge mastiff and molosser if you must, but they're not exactly the same. Chrisrus (talk) 05:05, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
 * not all molossers are mastiffs unless, for example, a French Bulldog is a mastiff. They're a lot of overlap, but it's not perfect.  So merge mastiff and molosser if you must, but they're not exactly the same.   If there is a merger that should be clarified.  7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 17:29, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Proposed merger with Mountain dog
The aticle Mountain dog contains very little information except most dogs of this type are used as livestock guardian dogs and that they tend to have a double coat. This could easily be incorporated into the Molosser article. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 02:43, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
 * not all Mountain dogs are mastiffs. They're a lot of overlap, but it's not perfect.  So merge mastiff and Mountain dog if you must, but they're not exactly the same.   If there is a merger that should be clarified.  7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 17:30, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)
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Removal of list / merger proposal
I propose to remove the current list on this page as it is a content WP:FORK, with all breeds listed already included in either mastiff or livestock guardian dog. We have already redirected all of the kennel club group lists as forks of type pages, this current list is no different. Cavalryman (talk) 05:04, 12 November 2019 (UTC).
 * I agree--Pierpao (talk) 09:07, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Molosser could be made into a redirect to mastiff, as molossor is believed to be the mastiff's ancestor.  William Harris Canis lupis track.svg talk Canis lupis track.svg 10:18, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I would support a redirect, although I believe it should be to Molossus (dog). Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 10:57, 12 November 2019 (UTC).
 * You are correct.  William Harris Canis lupis track.svg talk Canis lupis track.svg 11:41, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Merger proposal
Per discussion above I propose merging this page into Molossus (dog) but not merging the list which should be deleted. Cavalryman (talk) 22:19, 12 November 2019 (UTC).
 * A list of previous such discussions can be seen at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs/Archive 10. Cavalryman (talk) 23:44, 12 November 2019 (UTC).


 * Support.  William Harris Canis lupis track.svg talk Canis lupis track.svg 08:28, 13 November 2019 (UTC)